113 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

stop projecting your own failings onto others.

"Dire Wolf is too slow" lol. You should consider practicing what you preach.

In any case, no one is saying they can't close to brawling range, I think we both just feel the Gargoyle is better at that role.

In any case, blaming the Executioner's current predicament on cSPLs being nerfed is ********. There is no reason for it to have such a limited torso twist.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

Ive already said the Gargoyle is probably better. Thats not really in debate. But you dont always need to pilot the best mech. IMO it detracts from the game if you limit yourself to using only the best of whats available. But that doesnt mean you cant still do well in the Executioner, or potentially better than someone in a Gargoyle. Success is measured by other factors than what mech you bring. I dont think its quite as clear cut as you make it out to be.

If bringing the best mech is all that mattered we might as well all just play deathstrikes all the time. Because how !@#$ing fun would that be. I play whatever mech I want. And I do well in mechs people constantly tell me are bad.

I think its a stupid argument trying to tell people what mechs they should play.

My issue with your whole stance is that somehow this makes the Executioner's state of balance dependent on cSPLs. I'm sure if I really wanted to I could stack cSPLs and go to work just fine in an Executioner, but saying that "The Executioner is fine, its just that cSPLs got nerfed" is not how balance should work. If the mech is underperforming, its not fine. There are some basic fixes that would give it some help. Adding torso yaw range is a pretty low risk way to help the utility of the mech. Its not like its suddenly going to become some unstoppable force because it can shoot perpendicular to its movement vector..

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 25 October 2017 - 11:58 AM.

[Khobai]

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My issue with your whole stance is that somehow this makes the Executioner's state of balance dependent on cSPLs. I'm sure if I really wanted to I could stack cSPLs and go to work just fine in an Executioner, but saying that "The Executioner is fine, its just that cSPLs got nerfed" is not how balance should work.

weapon balance and mech balance often go hand in hand

look at all the lights that just got nerfed in the most recent patch because medium lasers got nerfed

Quote

"Dire Wolf is too slow" lol. You should consider practicing what you preach.

it is too slow. the slowest mech I pilot is my atlas, and even that goes 60kph

direwolf goes 48kph. thats way too slow.

slower than 60kph is just too slow IMO

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 12:06 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

But you dont always need to pilot the best mech. IMO it detracts from the game if you limit yourself to using only the best of whats available.

What if I were to tell you the goal is to make all mechs the best mech.

I'm obliged to bring up the Incredibles quote, just replace super with meta:

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 12:04 PM, said:

it is too slow. the slowest mech I pilot is my atlas, and even that goes 60kph

An Atlas needs that speed because it has shorter ranged weapons.....you don't need all that speed if you have ranged firepower.

6 UAC2 Mauler goes a whopping 53.1kph and the Gauss Vomit Deathstrike goes a whopping 54kph notice a trend? Just because you think these mechs are too slow doesn't make them bad mechs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 October 2017 - 12:13 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 12:04 PM, said:

weapon balance and mech balance often go hand in hand

look at all the lights that just got nerfed in the most recent patch because medium lasers got nerfed

direwolf goes 48kph. thats way too slow.

The Dire's devastating firepower capability makes the slow speed worth it.

And my argument would be that the Executioner has always been stronger as a mid range laser vomit poke mech than it was as a cSPL brawler, so cSPL balance had no effect on the EXE for me.

Give it more torso yaw range, jesus christ, why should it have MAD-IIC/Mauler level torso twist range. Its not a gun boat.

[Khobai]

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The Dire's devastating firepower capability makes the slow speed worth it.

yeah but other mechs can have just as much firepower but go faster

because their engines arnt locked

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

yeah but other mechs can have just as much firepower but go faster

because their engines arnt locked

Actually, no. The 2 ERLL, 6 ERML, 2 Gauss build is unmatched in efficacy at destroying mechs. No other mech can do it as well. The DS can do 2 HLL and 4 ERML for the same alpha, but you have like ~5 less DHS and only go about 5 kph faster.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 25 October 2017 - 12:27 PM.

[Mcgral18]

I'd like MASC to work longer than it does


20 seconds, for example. 7.5 seconds is just...mediocre.
I use it because it's hardwired, not because I want to.

-<Module faction="Clan" CType="CMASCStats" name="ClanMASCMkII" id="1606">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\MASC.png" descTag="@ClanMASCMkII_desc" shortNameTag="@ui_ClanMASCMkII" nameTag="@ClanMASCMkII"/>
<ModuleStats TonsMax="60" TonsMin="40" amountAllowed="1" health="7.5" tons="2.0" slots="2"/>
<MASCStats WeaponSpread="2.5" WeaponShake="0.25" DamageMax="1.54" DamageMin="1.26" DamageRate="0.5" GaugeDamagePoint="0.75" GaugeDrain="0.04" GaugeFill="0.1" BoostTurn="0.35" BoostDecel="1.8" BoostAccel="1.9" BoostSpeed="0.23"/>

[Khobai]

Quote

Actually, no. The 2 ERLL, 6 ERML, 2 Gauss build is unmatched in efficacy at destroying mechs

no its not lmao

theres plenty of brawling builds that would eat that for breakfast

and its slow as !@#$ so its not even fast enough to maintain its range advantage

that build might be lethal in very specific situations, but its hardly the most lethal build in all situations. especially situations that require speed.

and sometimes you play on conquest, going 48kph in conquest sucks. IMO you shouldnt go slower than 60kph. Even 60kph is arguably too slow.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 12:41 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

no its not lmao

theres plenty of brawling builds that would eat that for breakfast

Key word is BRAWLING. And that is if they can close before getting cored.

Brawling isn't always open in the solo queue. None of those brawling builds do 94 damage at 450-500 meters with decent falloff characteristics.

You really going to debate the difference between SRM alphas and laser gauss alphas? Completely different roles. Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really not understand how this game is played?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 25 October 2017 - 12:37 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

no its not lmao

theres plenty of brawling builds that would eat that for breakfast

and its slow as !@#$ so its not even fast enough to maintain its range advantage

Except that when you dont know what map you are getting and your team has 12 chiefs and 0 indians, the mid-long range build becomes more reliable. The direwolf is too slow for solo queue which is why the hero Madcat2 does better there.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kin3ticX, on 25 October 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Except that when you dont know what map you are getting and your team has 12 chiefs and 0 indians, the mid-long range build becomes more reliable. The direwolf is too slow for solo queue which is why the hero Madcat2 does better there.

I mean its a little slow, and can get you into trouble, but even if **** goes south still end up with 400 plus damage and a kill, and the 6-8 kill 1000+ damage upside is undeniable. I like running it sometimes, especially knowing that people exist that think the Dire is bad.

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

that build might be lethal in very specific situations, but its hardly the most lethal build in all situations. especially situations that require speed.

Its lethal AF whenever there is a mech in the 60 degree arc in front of it.

[Snazzy Dragon]

MASC is barely worth the tonnage and slots they take on the shadow cat and executioner, and on everything everything else it's just a waste. The shadow cat is only as decent as it is because of clamtech and cERLL coming out on top once again; the executioner just isn't worth the suboptimal hitboxes and huge profile, coupled with poor torso twist range and extremely low arm mounts. Battlemaster/supernova is more favorable for extreme range, gargoyle is better for brawling, and marauder IICs and mad cat mk II beat it at absolutely everything else. The only reason it holds up as okay as it does is because of clamtech, yet again, but if IS tech were on par for once I'd reckon the banshee would be vastly preferred despite the lack of hoverjets

[Khobai]

Quote

I like running it sometimes, especially knowing that people exist that think the Dire is bad.

I dont think its that bad though. Its still a clan mech so its pretty much automatically better than half the mechs in the game.

I just think its worse than other clan assaults like the deathstrike.

But thats because I value extra speed more than the extra firepower.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 12:53 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

no its not lmao

theres plenty of brawling builds that would eat that for breakfast

Because everyone says the same thing about the Deathstrike....oh wait, no they don't.
The Deathstrike has 14 less damage for its alpha but goes 5.4kph faster, the real reason the Deathstrike is better than the Whale is those mounts. If the Whale had similar level mounts and could keep all its weapons in the arms like it does now, it would be better than the Deathstrike because that extra damage is more important than the paltry speed.

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

and sometimes you play on conquest, going 48kph in conquest sucks. IMO you shouldnt go slower than 60kph. Even 60kph is arguably too slow.

It only sucks if you don't know how to play conquest. You're an assault, you shouldn't have to chase after caps....

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 October 2017 - 01:08 PM.

[Shade4x]

What i'm not understanding about MASC is the weight doesn't make sense with the maps. If you get 30% more speed for 5 tons (Executioner) then your gaining roughly 20kph for 6 seconds. For the same tonnage you can rock a 390-395 going 72.4 - 73.4 kph instead of 68.4 kph, and it's permanent. I wonder how many people would remove the MASC from the executioner if they could, in favor of a better engine or more weapons. PGI needs to either reduce the cooldown after you use it, or increase the amount of time you can use it. Most of the reason to have MASC in the first place is to get in an out of range which is almost always brawling. It's painfully obvious that 6 seconds is enough to charge and enter brawling range. For MASC to really be worth it, it needs to be able to enter and exit a brawl. Either give 10 seconds of MASC, or give 20 seconds and a longer cooldown, or keep it at 6 and give it a 3 seconds cooldown, but do something that makes it worth while. On smaller mech's it's even less useful, as an extra 20-30 kph on a mech that goes 100 kph isn't worth the already limited weight.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kin3ticX, on 25 October 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Except that when you dont know what map you are getting and your team has 12 chiefs and 0 indians, the mid-long range build becomes more reliable. The direwolf is too slow for solo queue which is why the hero Madcat2 does better there.

Again, if you are running the meta build for it, you aren't much better off with the MCII. 5 extra kph is not really worth mentioning.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Shade4x, on 25 October 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

What i'm not understanding about MASC is the weight doesn't make sense with the maps. If you get 30% more speed for 5 tons (Executioner) then your gaining roughly 20kph for 6 seconds. For the same tonnage you can rock a 390-395 going 72.4 - 73.4 kph instead of 68.4 kph, and it's permanent.

This is probably the biggest point. I know when it was first introduced the speed increase from MASC aboslutely wasn't worth the tonnage because agility was tied to speed, and you could get more speed from upgrading the engine as opposed to using MASC. This is less true than it used to be, but still I think mechs like the Shadow Cat would benefit more from having a higher base speed than relying on MASC.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 October 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

Again, if you are running the meta build for it, you aren't much better off with the MCII. 5 extra kph is not really worth mentioning.

Some people seem to think the 6 ERML build is best, or others run the build you are talking about with no hover jet, less DHS, and an XL350 apparently. That's not for me though.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 October 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

Some people seem to think the 6 ERML build is best, or others run the build you are talking about with no hover jet, less DHS, and an XL350 apparently. That's not for me though.

The 6 ERML sacrifices significant DPS to run fast though. I think if you try and build it for max DHS regardless of speed you are running like an XL335 which at that point, might as well just drop to an XL300 for maximum damage and DPS.

Edit: Alright, double checked the builds, the 6 ERML build that runs fast has the same DPS as the 2 ERLL/4 ERML build going 12.6kph faster. However you can get even more DPS from 3 DHS by only going 7.2kph faster than the ERLL/ERML build. So :shurg:, I prefer the 2 ERLL and slower speed because my alpha is improved and I have more than just Gauss to use at further ranges just like the Night Gyr.
2 ERLL/4 ERML/2 Gauss DEATHSTRIKE
6 ERML Max DPS DEATHSTRIKE
6 ERML Speed DEATHSTRIKE

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 October 2017 - 01:34 PM.