170 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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The current heat system is not the reason behind that.

The current heat system is crap and does nothing to limit huge alphas that kill mechs in one or two hits. Its definitely a problem. changing ghost heat so large and medium lasers are linked would somewhat help fix that. so ghost heat does make up for a lot of the failings in the heat system.

I hate ghost heat, but you cant just remove it without providing a better solution to prevent abusive weapon combinations.

also going back to 8v8 or tripling armor/structure would help make mechs feel more like mechs.

and while unlikely, id like to see destructible terrain, at least for cover elements; because rocks should not be invincible and superior to mech armor. all of the rocks that stick up out of the ground should have hitpoints like the walls in incursion. that would help get rid of the poking meta and force teams to be more aggressive. lrms would be better too then.

Edited by Khobai, 26 October 2017 - 07:58 AM.

[Dr Hobo]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

you cant remove ghost heat without putting something else in its place

ghost heat might not stop everything, but it does stop a lot of crap that needs to be stopped

they just need to close the laser vomit loophole by linking large and medium laser types

yes its not ideal, but no one has come up with a good replacement for ghost heat.



and going from 8v8 to 12v12 without going from double to triple armor/structure is why mechs feel like theyre made of tissue paper now.

they increased the number of mechs by 50% without also increasing armor/structure by 50%. so of course mechs are going to die faster from the increased concentration of firepower.

they need to either go back to 8v8 or stay at 12v12 and give us triple armor/structure.

GH was put into place to stop the absurd alphas people were making during the poptart days IIRC but that was with like 5 ERPPC stalkers and such. Been a loooong time since i recall then,but it was so rare,and it scared everyone so much that GH was put into place,or something along those lines,correct me if I'm wrong,but I am rusty.

And no,it doesn't stop anything. All it does is make mechs that can't boat tons of heatsinks have a harder time with heat. Try running a Hunchback 4P. Even on chain fire you can't get around the heat issues due to GH and crappy heatsink mechanics.

We have come up with alternatives to ghost heat. Energy draw(that was GH 2.0 and was poorly done IIRC) and convergence. Convergence wouldn't touch anything but remove pin point accuracy. Weve even suggested heat penalties for sustained high heat builds.

We doubled armor during the CBT days. Very early on,before Guassapults were a thing. Due to no convergence people could pinpoint even then.

Going back to 8v8 or revoking GH won't solve anything. All it will do is cause good players to carry harder,and get frustrated.

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 07:42 AM, said:

except not changing anything is why players are quitting MWO

People are quitting,or taking extended breaks(like I am,I'm only here to try out these new Osiris,then IM probably gonna quit for a long time again) is there's no content. There's nothing to do. I've seen it all,done it all. What's next? FW is a disaster,and always was. The balance is like playing darts blindfolded. I have no motivation to play anymore. After the Uziel,and now seeing how painfully average the Osiris is,why should I play pokemechs anymore?

At this point,PGI has nobody to blame but themselves for their downward spiral of painfully shoddy choices.Thinking Mechwarrior was an eSport was one of their biggest flaws.

[Asym]

No. Not. Never.... We can't have effective weapons systems in MWO? That'd ruin the game and make Solaris 1x1 last about 12 seconds.....

[Shifty McSwift]

Asym, on 26 October 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

No. Not. Never.... We can't have effective weapons systems in MWO? That'd ruin the game and make Solaris 1x1 last about 12 seconds.....

It's actually a good point though.. The idea of TTK and targeting components etc is one of the fun aspects of the game to a lot of people, it is why I enjoy brawling in MWO as I find sniping inefficient in action, even though it can be effective overall in terms of an MWO game, I do my sniping in different games where it has that immediate effect, but that is just me.

You can have killer guns and no TTK, or you can have nerfed guns, and extend combat times. You can't really have both right?

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 26 October 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[Khobai]

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GH was put into place to stop the absurd alphas people were making during the poptart days IIRC but that was with like 5 ERPPC stalkers and such. Been a loooong time since i recall then,but it was so rare,and it scared everyone so much that GH was put into place,or something along those lines,correct me if I'm wrong,but I am rusty.

And no,it doesn't stop anything. All it does is make mechs that can't boat tons of heatsinks have a harder time with heat. Try running a Hunchback 4P. Even on chain fire you can't get around the heat issues due to GH and crappy heatsink mechanics.

Huh? ghost heat stops a lot of legitimately overpowered combinations I dont know what youre talking about.

Wed have crap like clan mechs firing 6 ERLLs simultaneously and doing 60+ damage from 900m away without ghost heat. people complain about CERMLs at 400m now, imagine CERLLs doing the same thing at over twice the distance...

ghost heat is a necessary evil at this point. and no one has come up with anything better to replace it.

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The idea of TTK and targeting components etc is one of the fun aspects of the game to a lot of people

The problem is mechs die so fast theres little reason to target components that dont directly contribute towards killing a mech. It almost defeats the purpose of even having different components.

They probably need to armor up torso sections more, especially side torsos, so theres more of a reason to shoot other components. side torsos are way too easy to destroy, its one of the reasons ISXL sucks so bad.

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At this point,PGI has nobody to blame but themselves for their downward spiral of painfully shoddy choices.Thinking Mechwarrior was an eSport was one of their biggest flaws.

Thats certainly one of their biggest flaws. And Solaris basically takes a dump on everything MWO does well as a team based game.

Instead of solaris they shouldve focused on making the game more strategic/tactical for teams.

the problem is the mechpacks arnt selling as good and PGI sees solaris as a cashcow to sell customized geometries.

Edited by Khobai, 26 October 2017 - 08:16 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

The current heat system is crap and does nothing to limit huge alphas that kill mechs in one or two hits. Its definitely a problem.

How many mechs can do that?
How many are on one side of the tech tree?
How many can only do it at short range?

The heat system per se is not the problem. Rather, it is PGI’s habit of refusing to deal with outlier problems with specificity and instead trying to address outlier problems with broad brush rules changes that affect everything.

Is the “huge alpha” of a srm6 toting Huntsman a problem? Why not? Oh right range and spread. How about the Scorch? Nope, same thing. So where is the “huge alpha” a problem? Is the problem pretty much exclusive to high tonnage mechs with predominately high hard points, with sufficient free weight to use a variety of high damage, decent range weapons? If so, then that isn’t a problem to be solved by changing the “current heat system”, that is a problem that should be addressed with precision via a rule or other mechanism that acts against those few mechs (or better yet specific builds) that are problematic in this very limited regard.

Alas, PGI won’t do that. Instead they will hit an entire weapon or weapon class (UACs of last December, energy of the last two months), or all variants of a chassis (Kodiaks), or hell even all mechs in the game (see discussion above about weapon ghost heat linkage), with some giant all encompassing change that makes the problem mech still problematic or kills an entire playstyle.

[Dr Hobo]

Asym, on 26 October 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

No. Not. Never.... We can't have effective weapons systems in MWO? That'd ruin the game and make Solaris 1x1 last about 12 seconds.....

We already do. But since there's no hard point limits,no convergence,no heat penalties,you can effectively boat the biggest weapons you want,stuff the rest with HS and ammo,and you're done. You just have to make sure you don't boil at your garbage heat efficency.

[Shifty McSwift]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

Wed have crap like clan mechs firing 6 ERLLs simultaneously and doing 60+ damage from 900m away without ghost heat.

We'd have much worse crap than that I assure you.

[Daurock]

Bud Crue, on 26 October 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

How many mechs can do that?
How many are on one side of the tech tree?
How many can only do it at short range?

The heat system per se is not the problem. Rather, it is PGI’s habit of refusing to deal with outlier problems with specificity and instead trying to address outlier problems with broad brush rules changes that affect everything.

Is the “huge alpha” of a srm6 toting Huntsman a problem? Why not? Oh right range and spread. How about the Scorch? Nope, same thing. So where is the “huge alpha” a problem? Is the problem pretty much exclusive to high tonnage mechs with predominately high hard points, with sufficient free weight to use a variety of high damage, decent range weapons? If so, then that isn’t a problem to be solved by changing the “current heat system”, that is a problem that should be addressed with precision via a rule or other mechanism that acts against those few mechs (or better yet specific builds) that are problematic in this very limited regard.

Alas, PGI won’t do that. Instead they will hit an entire weapon or weapon class (UACs of last December, energy of the last two months), or all variants of a chassis (Kodiaks), or hell even all mechs in the game (see discussion above about weapon ghost heat linkage), with some giant all encompassing change that makes the problem mech still problematic or kills an entire playstyle.

Exactly.
Honestly, if they'd figure out a way to include the Gauss rifle in ALL GH buckets, merge the large and medium Laser buckets, and appropriately set the GH limits for some lasers,* We'd be in a much better place balance wise. (Though i would worry slightly about AC10/20 and/or PPC vomit it at that point, though thankfully, their velocity and range will at least hold them back.)


*cerMLs have no reason to be at a 42 limit while isMLs are held to 30. Both should be set at 35 or so. Personally, i'd nerf the damage of cerMLs to 6, and increase the GH limit of IsMLs to 7. Another topic for another day though, imo.

Edited by Daurock, 26 October 2017 - 08:17 AM.

[Khobai]

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How many mechs can do that?

without ghost heat? pretty much any clan mech could do that.

clan weapons do ridiculous damage, if they werent restricted by ghost heat, most clan mechs easily obliterate mechs in one or two alphas.

and not having ghost heat is the context which we were talking about.

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We'd have much worse crap than that I assure you.

no doubt. wed have FAR worse. that was just the example that came to mind.

nobody likes ghost heat. but most players realize that it exists for a reason and it cant just be removed from the game without a better solution being put in its place.

Edited by Khobai, 26 October 2017 - 08:22 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

The current heat system is crap and does nothing to limit huge alphas that kill mechs in one or two hits.

Don't face tank Dire Whales and Mad Cat Mk. IIs and you won't die in one or two hits.

In another thread you said you can twist away laser damage, so I'm not seeing the issue. Your inability to deal with it does not make the heat system crap.

[Khobai]

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Don't face tank Dire Whales and Mad Cat Mk. IIs and you won't die in one or two hits.

Youve entirely missed the point.

The point is one or two shot mechs would be an epidemic problem without ghost heat. It wouldnt just be limited to select assaults. every clan mech could do it.

ghost heat is the hello kitty bandaid that prevents the horribly defective heat system from being pervasively abused.

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In another thread you said you can twist away laser damage, so I'm not seeing the issue. Your inability to deal with it does not make the heat system crap.

yeah because ghost heat currently limits laser vomit. ghost heat is what makes "dealing with it" possible.

without ghost heat, no amount of torso twisting, and no god in heaven, is going to save you from dying.

again the whole context of this discussion is ghost heat not existing...

Edited by Khobai, 26 October 2017 - 08:41 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

The problem is mechs die so fast theres little reason to target components that dont directly contribute towards killing a mech. It almost defeats the purpose of even having different components.

They probably need to armor up torso sections more, especially side torsos, so theres more of a reason to shoot other components. side torsos are way too easy to destroy, its one of the reasons ISXL sucks so bad.

Personally I think more than armor they need to boost structure health on the bigger components (torsos particularly), and possibly also for the bigger mechs/engines too.

But I also think that something like ghost heat is needed, I would do it differently and everyone else would do it differently too it seems, it is a secondary restriction for reigning in the potentials that certain mechs open up, while keeping them with side options outside of just one button alpha spammage.

[Bud Crue]

Daurock, on 26 October 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Exactly.
Honestly, if they'd figure out a way to include the Gauss rifle in ALL GH buckets, merge the large and medium Laser buckets, and appropriately set the GH limits for some lasers,* We'd be in a much better place balance wise. (Though i would worry slightly about AC10/20 and/or PPC vomit it at that point, though thankfully, their velocity and range will at least hold them back.)


*cerMLs have no reason to be at a 42 limit while isMLs are held to 30. Both should be set at 35 or so. Personally, i'd nerf the damage of cerMLs to 6, and increase the GH limit of IsMLs to 7. Another topic for another day though, imo.

I want fewer limits. Not more. And if more are needed they ought to be applied with surgical precision. Example: Linking Gauss to SRMS GH... such a combo of weapons is not problematic so we don’t need to add it. Or even gauss and all energy linkage...is a Gauss and 6ISML problematic (45pts at 270m)? I don’t see it being so, so no GH linkage. Same thing with large lasers and mediums. With no GH link 2LL 6ML on an IS Warhammer is already hot as hell so why link them? Now if a particular high # E hardpoint mech has sufficient weight to run that sort of a build and fire with sufficient frequency that it comes to dominate play or is even one of PGI’s asserted over performers, then I want a nothing more than them to address that 1 very specific mech or better yet that 1 very specific build. Not apply a broad brush GH link for every mech capable of running any possible combo of the weapons that the problematic mech happens to run; which is what they currently do. Drives me nuts.

[Shifty McSwift]

Bud Crue, on 26 October 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

I want fewer limits. Not more. And if more are needed they ought to be applied with surgical precision. Example: Linking Gauss to SRMS GH... such a combo of weapons is not problematic so we don’t need to add it. Or even gauss and all energy linkage...is a Gauss and 6ISML problematic (45pts at 270m)? I don’t see it being so, so no GH linkage. Same thing with large lasers and mediums. With no GH link 2LL 6ML on an IS Warhammer is already hot as hell so why link them? Now if a particular high # E hardpoint mech has sufficient weight to run that sort of a build and fire with sufficient frequency that it comes to dominate play or is even one of PGI’s asserted over performers, then I want a nothing more than them to address that 1 very specific mech or better yet that 1 very specific build. Not apply a broad brush GH link for every mech capable of running any possible combo of the weapons that the problematic mech happens to run; which is what they currently do. Drives me nuts.

I agree but not necessarily about the fewer restrictions, part, replace that bit with, much clearer and generally logical restrictions, it has gotten weird and confusing beyond the strangely hidden nature of GH. They might as well make it a weapon stat by this stage.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

without ghost heat? pretty much any clan mech could do that.

clan weapons do ridiculous damage, if they werent restricted by ghost heat, most clan mechs easily obliterate mechs in one or two alphas.

Don’t move the goal posts. Your comment was that the current heat system is crap and does nothing to address high alphas that can kill a mech in one or two alphas. Mechs doing that without ghost heat is irrelevant.

We know SOME clan mechs do ridiculous damage. My point above is that any change to the heat system or any other change that may be intended to address such mechs should be applied with specificity and not some absurdist broad brush application of changing entire weapons classes performance, or linking weapons GH effects for all mechs, etc.

Edited by Bud Crue, 26 October 2017 - 08:43 AM.

[Khobai]

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Don’t move the goal posts. Your comment was that the current heat system is crap and does nothing to address high alphas that can kill a mech in one or two alphas. My mechs doing that without ghost heat is irrelevant.

the current heat system IS crap.

thats exactly why we need ghost heat.

and linking heavy and medium lasers under the current ghost heat system would stop a lot of the laser vomit abuse going on now.

its not an ideal fix but its all weve got at the moment.

Quote

We know SOME clan mechs do ridiculous damage. My point above is that any change to the heat system or any other change that may be intended to address such mechs should be applied with specificity and not some absurdist broad brush application of changing entire weapons classes performance, or linking weapons GH effects for all mechs, etc.

I dont disagree. Ghost heat does have its share of problems. And not being able to specifically target problem mechs is one of them.

Why we dont have unique skill trees for each mech or at least each mech role or weight class is beyond me.

That would allow PGI to independently balance certain mechs without unintentionally nerfing others. Like they couldve nerfed lasers for heavies/assaults without nerfing them for lights.

PGI doesnt understand the intricacy of fine balancing. They never have. They take the hammer approach to everything.

Edited by Khobai, 26 October 2017 - 08:52 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

the current heat system IS crap.

thats exactly why we need ghost heat.

You just blew my mind.
The current system IS ghost heat.

Ah...I see the edit.

I’m fine with such a linkage if applied to just mechs that warrant it. But I hate the idea that my 6ERML 1LPL Thunderbolt needs to be punished because a Mad-IIC running 6ERML and 2HLL may or may not be over performing. Punishing ALL builds because a few mixed energy builds are problematic is what happens with such a GH linkage, and all that does is maintain the status quo or make the divergence between good and mediocre even worse.

Edited by Bud Crue, 26 October 2017 - 08:50 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

It feels like Clans can skirt ghost heat much better than IS but a good chunk of that is the better clan damage and the lack of hardpoints to reach the same alphas.

[Dr Hobo]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

the current heat system IS crap.

thats exactly why we need ghost heat.

and linking heavy and medium lasers under the current ghost heat system would stop a lot of the laser vomit abuse going on now.

No,it won't. Nothing will be fixed unless PGI starts actually implementing heat penalties instead of halfassing it with baindaids. Energy draw was supposed to do that,but it was again,halfassed and not well thought out,and ended up being GH2.0.

Basically,doing that you're just gonna have more people bring cool shots instead of artillery strikes(but with 5 gear slots,you can really just carry 2 cool shots,2 strikes and a UAV for maximum effectiveness)

So for a bit less points in the tree being spread out,they'll always go into that aux tree to get all those slots.

Every attempt PGI has attempted this year,and i'd say at least a year and a half have been half assed bandaids that don't solve the problems.

We don't need ghost heat if there's heat penalties,if there's convergence,if DHS and SHS were actually SHS and DHS. We wouldn't need ghost heat if we had hard point restrictions,or less hardpoint bloat.

THere's so many ways to get around GH and massive alpha strikes that PGI has at their disposal,yet they refuse to even attempt to try them.