170 replies to this topic

[Valhallan]

Just lower base heatcap to 9 already, most of the heatcap should come from HS. Ive been running a troll 76 laser ecm cutefox lately and the fact that it is even possible is just sad (yea i overheat on TT but otherwise it's good, its got ecm anyway and is supposed to repo being a light, 1 rear shotting assaults is hilarious).

Heat management is not harsher if we are using the rule basis MWO draws from, MWO is not drawing from standard TT but from Solaris style rules. Heat management there is harsher. If MWO was drawing from regular TT the weapon stats would be similar to mech commander, i.e. gauss damage is 15 over 10 secs and not necessarily 15 per shot (it could be 15 with 10 sec CD or 12 with 8 sec cd etc). Sure they got better cooling in TT, .5 per out engine dhs, but -.2 for SHS making SHS entirely obsolete, but the base heatcap was 9+HS, anything higher has penalties. MWO has much higher heatcap starting at the TT limit 30, then adding HS then adding Skill tree on top of all that, only after that do you start running into penalties.

That being said, TTK is not higher in TT when you are running good pilots. You can easily make a 45 ton IS mech that can chainsaw at CC for 80+ damage and heat neutral and running at 112kph in mwo terms with 7 jumpjets. Also the dice rolling is actually better than manual aiming when you are calling shots on the head. If you drop a few dmg you can even tack on a supercharger to run close even faster. Also the range difference is much less pronounced since MWO in practice doubled ranges, as long as you get initiative the range is not as much of an issue (since the problem with CC range in TT was that the opp could just step full movement away when he moves if he got initiative leaving you dry during the firing phase).

[FupDup]

Valhallan, on 27 October 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

Just lower base heatcap to 9 already....

A base heat cap of 9? 9?!! You literally couldn't even fire a single PPC without shutting down.

[Valhallan]

FupDup, on 27 October 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

A base heat cap of 9? 9?!! You literally couldn't even fire a single PPC without shutting down.

Oi vey....., wow how did you bring a mech with 0 heatsinks? plz teach me.

[Tarl Cabot]

FupDup, on 27 October 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

A base heat cap of 9? 9?!! You literally couldn't even fire a single PPC without shutting down.

I think he meant since heat sinks are added onto of the base 30. I would rather PGI reduces the overcap amount hs provide. He may not be aware of how HS add to the base 30 PGI provides mechs.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 27 October 2017 - 07:17 PM.

[FupDup]

Tarl Cabot, on 27 October 2017 - 07:10 PM, said:

I think he meant since heat sinks are added onto of the base 30. I would rather PGI reduces the overcap amount hs provide.

All mechs have 10 sinks by default, so that's what I'm using as my definition of the "base" heat cap.

[FantasticMrDark]

30 heat cap doesnt really stop 90+ ton mechs running 2 Gauss+Lasers vomit.

[Kroete]

FantasticMrDark, on 27 October 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

30 heat cap doesnt really stop 90+ ton mechs running 2 Gauss+Lasers vomit.

But spreading the 2 gauss and 4 to 6 laser over diverent parts of the enemy mech would do.

The armor and crit system is build for random hit locations with 10 seconds cooldowns on all weapons,
giving the weapons 2-6 seconds cooldown and giving us pinpoint damage for all weapons breaks the system.

We do 1.5-5 times the damage in 10 seconds and can hit on a single location instead of spreading over 6-8 locations,
means we can do around 9 to 30 times the damage on a single location in 10 seconds.

[InvictusLee]

Does anyone have the TL;DR on this thread up to this point?

[Bud Crue]

November11th, on 28 October 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:

Does anyone have the TL;DR on this thread up to this point?

OP: get rid of ghost heat, because reasons
Most every one else: no, because reasons.

The usual back and forth of folks reiterating past poorly implemented alternatives, additions and modifications to GH that has lead to the current muddle of a system that we have, and how that "system" impacts game play in individual's views, and why it should be changed or not. These views are presented with the ever present undercurrent of hopelessness that thing will be made better, intermixed with the hard truth that the status quo will stay as it is or more likely be made worse somehow. Add in a few tangents about Clan ACs and some asides over UAC jam chance, a couple exchanges about the pros and cons of convergence and you have this thread.

Edited by Bud Crue, 28 October 2017 - 04:40 AM.

[MischiefSC]

davoodoo, on 27 October 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

Now double armor and structure on everything and you added at least additional 200-300 seconds, most likely more(due to no ac20 oneshotting lights or headshots, overheating, ammo shortages and so on)

10 minutes is longer than our current mwo matches despite lengthy positioning and im talking matches not chasing lone shadowcats on hpg walls.

Except we increases rate of fire by 3x.

[Dr Hobo]

Heatinks shouldn't increase heat capacity. They should increase cooling efficency.

What we have now,is the problem.

They arent true double heatsinks because of this,and nowhere in the game is this explained.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

I still think one of the biggest problems is that taking out a side torso automatically rips off the corresponding arm, which makes side torsos good to shoot even against mechs like the Supernova, Whale, or Warhawk which probably have all or most their firepower in the arms.

See, the irony of this statement was that this was addressed in MW4. The idea was to remove that behavior due to how devastating that losing a side torso was in previous MW games... this ontop of not having to deal with the IS XL vs Clan XL nonsense as no previous MW title actually applied said rules (aka why Clan XL is still very strong for obvious reasons). MW games prior to MW4 were pretty bad/fun on the legging front, as losing a leg was infinitely easier than coring a mech out, and thus legging rules changed as well (losing one leg doesn't automatically destroy the mech). Heck, MW4 added head one-shot protection - though it was totally imperfect. This behavior goes unnoticed with some of the TT purists out there.

You know, knowledge like this is totally Lostech in MWO development.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 October 2017 - 08:00 PM.

[davoodoo]

Dr Hobo, on 28 October 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

Heatinks shouldn't increase heat capacity. They should increase cooling efficency.

What we have now,is the problem.

They arent true double heatsinks because of this,and nowhere in the game is this explained.

Except they do in tt...

Heat capacity is faithful representation of tt cooling off at the moment of firing.

If we only had 30 capacity, what would even be the point of stock awesome 9m packing 3 erppc if it couldnt fire 2 of them without shutting down.

Edited by davoodoo, 28 October 2017 - 11:48 PM.

[Tarogato]

Deathlike, on 28 October 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

... this was addressed in MW4. The idea was to remove that behavior due to how devastating that losing a side torso was in previous MW games... this ontop of not having to deal with the IS XL vs Clan XL nonsense as no previous MW title actually applied said rules (aka why Clan XL is still very strong for obvious reasons).

MWLL does this as well, and actually... I don't like it there. Side torsos are almost as healthy as CTs, so why bother spending your time shooting them if it doesn't take out the arm and with it a considerable amount of firepower for less effort? Without the "ST loss destroys arm" mechanic, the game is a lot more one-dimensional, it's much more obvious to just shoot the CT on all mechs all the time. The only time I go for side torsos in MWLL is when I've already missed the CT enough times, and I know the mech is running IS XL and I can get the accelerated damage transfer bonus.

[Dr Hobo]

davoodoo, on 28 October 2017 - 11:43 PM, said:

Except they do in tt...

Heat capacity is faithful representation of tt cooling off at the moment of firing.

If we only had 30 capacity, what would even be the point of stock awesome 9m packing 3 erppc if it couldnt fire 2 of them without shutting down.

To a point. DHS are 1.5 HS. Then on top of that,they increase your heat cap,instead of accelerating your heat dissapation.

http://www.sarna.net...eat_Point_Table

Here look in the Heat table.

It's -1 heat per turn per SHS. it's -2 per turn per DHS.

Remember,you also have your 10 in the engine. So as long as you don't move,and you cool off the next turn,yes,you can fire all 3.

Heat capacity shouldn't be doubled with DHS(or more accurately.1.5 times better) it should be cooling down twice as a fast.

[davoodoo]

Dr Hobo, on 29 October 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

To a point. DHS are 1.5 HS. Then on top of that,they increase your heat cap,instead of accelerating your heat dissapation.

http://www.sarna.net...eat_Point_Table

Here look in the Heat table.

It's -1 heat per turn per SHS. it's -2 per turn per DHS.

Remember,you also have your 10 in the engine. So as long as you don't move,and you cool off the next turn,yes,you can fire all 3.

Heat capacity shouldn't be doubled with DHS(or more accurately.1.5 times better) it should be cooling down twice as a fast.

Because, every hs in tt effectively adds 1 to capacity, while dhs adds 2.

If it was hard 30, it would end with shutdown before cooling could even occur.
hellstar with 60 heat per salvo would meltdown instantly despite being heat neutral...

Edited by davoodoo, 29 October 2017 - 06:57 AM.

[Deathlike]

Tarogato, on 29 October 2017 - 01:53 AM, said:

MWLL does this as well, and actually... I don't like it there. Side torsos are almost as healthy as CTs, so why bother spending your time shooting them if it doesn't take out the arm and with it a considerable amount of firepower for less effort? Without the "ST loss destroys arm" mechanic, the game is a lot more one-dimensional, it's much more obvious to just shoot the CT on all mechs all the time. The only time I go for side torsos in MWLL is when I've already missed the CT enough times, and I know the mech is running IS XL and I can get the accelerated damage transfer bonus.

I'm not entirely against that a side torso removes the arm as long as both Clan and IS do NOT die to BOTH side torso removals (you still have to kill both legs or core CT). Clan XL natural behavior is too strong to be balanced properly (PGI only attempts to balance them due to sheer complaints) so you have to keep them on relatively equal footing for the purposes of balance.

[warner2]

Bombast, on 25 October 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

I admittedly just skimmed this, and the jest of what I got was 'It'll be completely overpowered, but who cares.'

And that's a pretty bad attitude to have.

Personally, I'd remove jams form UACs (Or make them extremely rare) from the game, but give them absurd cooldowns. Just stupidly long. Make them zoom and boom weapons rather than DPS weapons. Let RACs, LB-Xs, and ACs be the 'stand and deliver' autocannons.

As for Ghost Heat, yes, it doesn't seem to be perfect. I'd go for diminshing returns on boated weapons, either in addition to, or instead of, Ghost Heat. Make it so every weapon of a type over a certain threshold reduces the effectiveness of each weapon in that group. That diminishing return could take the form of cooldown, damage, range, or yes, even heat generation.

Of course, for that to work, the UI has to reflect it. A lot better than the game indicates Ghost Heat at the moment.

True, and the good thing about the diminishing return being lower damage is that the 'mechlab will show that easily via the firepower stat.

[warner2]

Also, ghost heat is PGIs answer to a problem that was predicted... right at the beginning. In 2013....

http://mwomercs.com/...om-closed-beta/

So I don't think it's very good but it can't come out with something else taking it's place.

[Wolfways]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

you cant remove ghost heat without putting something else in its place

ghost heat might not stop everything, but it does stop a lot of crap that needs to be stopped

they just need to close the laser vomit loophole by linking large and medium laser types

yes its not ideal, but no one has come up with a good replacement for ghost heat.



and going from 8v8 to 12v12 without going from double to triple armor/structure is why mechs feel like theyre made of tissue paper now.

they increased the number of mechs by 50% without also increasing armor/structure by 50%. so of course mechs are going to die faster from the increased concentration of firepower.

they need to either go back to 8v8 or stay at 12v12 and give us triple armor/structure.

Seeing as pgi are using stats from BT where a game represents a few minutes and MWO matches are up to 15 minutes they should have tripled armour, ammo/ton, and had real 2.0 DHS from the start.