93 replies to this topic

[Trissila]

Dr Hobo, on 02 November 2017 - 02:33 AM, said:

I miss being able to actually lob my LRMs in long range matches. It gave me something to do while I died from gauss/ppc fire.

If you're gonna have long range weapons that can touch you,might as well have LRMs be there too. It helps to punish bad positioning,and bad use of cover.

Honestly, LRMs are not that bad... if they're done correctly. It's just that "indirect fire from 800+ meters" is not the correct way to use them.

LRM-20s put out 4.65 DPS, making them actually one of the highest DPS weapon systems in the game -- they're beat out by 20-class ACs at 5 DPS, but those have an effective range under 400 meters while LRMs retain full damage potentially out to 900+ (though in practical terms only about 600 or so). They're also beat out substantially by RACs, though RACs are much harder to land hits with. In the end though, AMS can and will shoot down some missiles to reduce the effective DPS, so it about evens out; ACs and RACs are harder to land hits with, but LRMs can be outright reduced by AMS.

But with that said? A pair of LRM-20s with Artemis, all the spread skill nodes, and a personal tag make for an okay direct-fire weapon if you can catch someone in a bad position. Certainly you could punish harder with one shot if you were laser boating or something, but a target that's well out of position will allow you to put out very scary DPS that's surprisingly concentrated, with all of your spread-reducing factors in play.

Problem is actually getting such a target though, which happens less and less at higher tiers. As players make fewer positioning mistakes, LRMs have less and less room to shine.

I've got a T3 alt that drives nothing but an ARC-2R with 2xALRM-20, 5xISML, and a personal TAG on one of the super-high CT mounts. I'm rarely disappointed with its performance, honestly. At least down in T3, there's a shocking amount of players that will just sit there in the open, allowing you to TAG them and hold the triggers on the launchers.

[JediPanther]

Trissila, on 13 November 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

Honestly, LRMs are not that bad... if they're done correctly. It's just that "indirect fire from 800+ meters" is not the correct way to use them.

LRM-20s put out 4.65 DPS, making them actually one of the highest DPS weapon systems in the game -- they're beat out by 20-class ACs at 5 DPS, but those have an effective range under 400 meters while LRMs retain full damage potentially out to 900+ (though in practical terms only about 600 or so). They're also beat out substantially by RACs, though RACs are much harder to land hits with. In the end though, AMS can and will shoot down some missiles to reduce the effective DPS, so it about evens out; ACs and RACs are harder to land hits with, but LRMs can be outright reduced by AMS.

But with that said? A pair of LRM-20s with Artemis, all the spread skill nodes, and a personal tag make for an okay direct-fire weapon if you can catch someone in a bad position. Certainly you could punish harder with one shot if you were laser boating or something, but a target that's well out of position will allow you to put out very scary DPS that's surprisingly concentrated, with all of your spread-reducing factors in play.

Problem is actually getting such a target though, which happens less and less at higher tiers. As players make fewer positioning mistakes, LRMs have less and less room to shine.

I've got a T3 alt that drives nothing but an ARC-2R with 2xALRM-20, 5xISML, and a personal TAG on one of the super-high CT mounts. I'm rarely disappointed with its performance, honestly. At least down in T3, there's a shocking amount of players that will just sit there in the open, allowing you to TAG them and hold the triggers on the launchers.

I'm in t3 and I find a lot of that pretty much spot on although my lrm mech is still the cptl c1 with the tri-lasers and tag with 15s. depending on how much ams foxes are about one or two of them can shut out lrms completely. My brother fairly often gets 400-800 damage matches with the same build in the lower tiers and 1-3kills.

If I had to buff lrms I'd go for velocity and less spread. For longest lrm shooter I've found on is side the rvn huggin to have the most lrm range beating out the stalker by about 100m.

[Lykaon]

Trissila, on 13 November 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

Honestly, LRMs are not that bad... if they're done correctly. It's just that "indirect fire from 800+ meters" is not the correct way to use them.

LRM-20s put out 4.65 DPS, making them actually one of the highest DPS weapon systems in the game -- they're beat out by 20-class ACs at 5 DPS, but those have an effective range under 400 meters while LRMs retain full damage potentially out to 900+ (though in practical terms only about 600 or so).

Yeah...about that 4.65 DPS. It's totally dependent on factors that never happen.

As I have said before even skilled LRM users rarely have an accuracy rating over 40% for LRMs. And since the stats list a volley with even a single missile landing as a hit the actual effective hit ratio per missile is probably averaged at under 25%.

So 4.65 DSP theoretical vs under 2 DPS in actual use.

My own stats have a 31% LRM20 accuracy and an AC20 accuracy of 79%

Now every one of those 79% AC20 hits did 20 damage.While I would bet the house that every one of the 31% hits LRM20s did under 20 damage and most doing under 10 damage.

Edited by Lykaon, 14 November 2017 - 10:37 AM.

[Ziogualty]

The matches i suffer most from LRMs are the matches i pretend enemy will not have them.

[Dr Hobo]

Trissila, on 13 November 2017 - 08:43 PM, said:

Honestly, LRMs are not that bad... if they're done correctly. It's just that "indirect fire from 800+ meters" is not the correct way to use them.

LRM-20s put out 4.65 DPS, making them actually one of the highest DPS weapon systems in the game -- they're beat out by 20-class ACs at 5 DPS, but those have an effective range under 400 meters while LRMs retain full damage potentially out to 900+ (though in practical terms only about 600 or so). They're also beat out substantially by RACs, though RACs are much harder to land hits with. In the end though, AMS can and will shoot down some missiles to reduce the effective DPS, so it about evens out; ACs and RACs are harder to land hits with, but LRMs can be outright reduced by AMS.

But with that said? A pair of LRM-20s with Artemis, all the spread skill nodes, and a personal tag make for an okay direct-fire weapon if you can catch someone in a bad position. Certainly you could punish harder with one shot if you were laser boating or something, but a target that's well out of position will allow you to put out very scary DPS that's surprisingly concentrated, with all of your spread-reducing factors in play.

Problem is actually getting such a target though, which happens less and less at higher tiers. As players make fewer positioning mistakes, LRMs have less and less room to shine.

I've got a T3 alt that drives nothing but an ARC-2R with 2xALRM-20, 5xISML, and a personal TAG on one of the super-high CT mounts. I'm rarely disappointed with its performance, honestly. At least down in T3, there's a shocking amount of players that will just sit there in the open, allowing you to TAG them and hold the triggers on the launchers.

BUt LRM 20s have the worst spread,even with Artemis. LRM 5s and 10s are the best launchers still. And 15s are pushing it,but 20s are just too hot,too heavy,and too innacurate to be useful. Sure you're doing all sorts of damage,but it doesn't matter if none of that damage can connect due to spread.

I run a Catapult C1(founders variant because it's a rarity and I gotta show it off because that beak nose) with LRM 15As. I've found them to be a better option than the 20s,just for the heat issues. I honestly think I could get better averages if I dropped to 10s simply due to the accuracy with less tubes. But then AMS shits on it.

*shrugs* LRMs need some buffs,but not enough buffs to bring the rain harder. It's already hard enough with the constant Polar shitlands and Frozen ****** and LRM rain(more of an annoyance than anything else. I don't really fear LRMs unless they're boated in ludicrous numbers)

Remove C3 target sharing,give us C3 modules and command modules,then buff LRMs and AMS.

[The Lurm Wurm]

Lykaon, on 14 November 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

Yeah...about that 4.65 DPS. It's totally dependent on factors that never happen.

As I have said before even skilled LRM users rarely have an accuracy rating over 40% for LRMs. And since the stats list a volley with even a single missile landing as a hit the actual effective hit ratio per missile is probably averaged at under 25%.

So 4.65 DSP theoretical vs under 2 DPS in actual use.

My own stats have a 31% LRM20 accuracy and an AC20 accuracy of 79%

Now every one of those 79% AC20 hits did 20 damage.While I would bet the house that every one of the 31% hits LRM20s did under 20 damage and most doing under 10 damage.

Eh, I'm sitting at ~50% LRM20 accuracy on this alt, and that's lower than it could be given the number of "what the hay, might as well" shots I fire. If I only fired against targets I had LoS and TAG on, it would be MUCH better, but part of the point of bringing an LRM over a laser is that you can get in some damage even after they've dropped behind cover.

I won't claim that they're tournament-worthy, because they're not. But in QP? You can get away with all kinds of stuff.

[Vellron2005]

The Lurm Wurm, on 14 November 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

I won't claim that they're tournament-worthy, because they're not. But in QP? You can get away with all kinds of stuff.

Oh trust me, even at higher tiers, you can easily do 1K+ games with LRM boats.. I have those regularly, my highest streak was five 1K+ games in a row.. Each with a kill secured LRM boat mech.. (A kill secured mech is a mech that can reliably provide a minimum of 1 KMDD or Kill, so as to not waste more mechs than it takes out of the equation, often more).

If you know what you're doing, LRMs can be devastating, even without Artemis, Narc and Tag. It depends on map and game mode, positioning and teamwork.

But the stupidest thing I see people constantly forgetting is the fact that you SHOULD NOT compare LRMs with direct fire weapons in terms of kills and effectiveness.. because LRMs are NOT meant to be effective at killing, NOT meant to be effective at damaging..

They however ARE meant to be effective at controlling enemy movement and suppressing the enemy, and punishing if the enemy is not "cooperating".

Comparing LRMs with Direct fire and saying LRMs are bad is like comparing a tractor and a race car and saying a race car is not a very good all-terrain vehicle.

Bloody DUH!

STOP expecting LRMs to get kills! STOP expecting LRM boats to Tank!

REALIZE that LRM boats are doing their job if not in the hands of a completely bad player!

[Lykaon]

The Lurm Wurm, on 14 November 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

Eh, I'm sitting at ~50% LRM20 accuracy on this alt, and that's lower than it could be given the number of "what the hay, might as well" shots I fire. If I only fired against targets I had LoS and TAG on, it would be MUCH better, but part of the point of bringing an LRM over a laser is that you can get in some damage even after they've dropped behind cover.

I won't claim that they're tournament-worthy, because they're not. But in QP? You can get away with all kinds of stuff.

Give it time as counter play becomes more common your accuracy stats plummet.

What is your tier?

What launchers are you seeing this 50% accuracy on ?

and how often do you deploy LRMs ( I assume often from the account handle)?

[mouser42]

[Vellron2005]

mouser42, on 15 November 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

Hahahahahaha, Kitfox OP

[Dr Hobo]

mouser42, on 15 November 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

There's something missing tho...

I can't quite put my ammo on it tho...

[Wolfways]

Vellron2005, on 15 November 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

REALIZE that LRM boats are doing their job if not in the hands of a completely bad player!

The problems that players complain about on the forums though are:

1) Bad players complaining that LRM's are op. They need to realize that LRM's are not op against better players, and like any game with a any hint of difficulty the answer is to get better at the game.

2) Better players complaining that LRM's are weak. This is also true because of there being so much cover on MWO's arena maps. Anything that has a projectile speed slower than an AC shell is hugely diminished in viability because the target can get back into cover so fast. This, and the incoming missile warning are why LRM's cannot be used at long range despite that being their purpose.

Also imo ammo counts for missiles and ballistics are way too low because the stock amount was meant for a match that lasted a couple of minutes. Increased match length has meant boating has become the norm because you have to stuff as much ammo as possible into the mech instead of DHS to also run other weapons.

Edited by Wolfways, 15 November 2017 - 07:26 AM.

[LowSubmarino]

Lrms are the by far weakest weapon system in the entire game.

The way pug teams play, the nascar style which is so popular and the nr. one strategy ppl use in 99 % of the game, makes the team and individual mechs insanely vulnearable even to the cheapest back rusher and backstabbing tactics, makes it impossible for snipers to suppress other snipers or lrms or spotters.

I loved to play snipers. had multiple very effective sniping mechs and builds.

I dont play them much anymore now because 1. TTK was increased massively. Sniping isnt effective anymore.

2. By constantly running in circles, it is virtually impossible to effectively cover your team from goot sniping positions. Further out on elevated or advantageous positions, even in faster mechs you need more time to reposition. You dont have the time to really lay down good fire over a moderate or extensive period. You gotta constatnly reposition because team is constantly running in cirlces. Not straight ahead at the enemy, but in circles, trying to find the other teams nascar tail.

As I said in another thread with the same title: mwo players are cowards.

This cowardly playstyle of constantly running in circles to try and find easy targest that are left behind and you can kill without a fight make it impossible and ineffective to try to cover your taem form range.

Those are the reasons, why lrms are so powerful. Ppl dont really play together and mostly wanne run in circles. If possible every single game. Dunno why ppl think that is fun gameplay, but they do it every game. Run run run.

And in the back and to the sides they loose mech after mech after mech.

Has nothing to do with lrms or that theres too many lrms or that they are too strong. Really. Has nothing to do with that.

As I said...lrms are one if not the by far weakest weapon in the entire game. The fact alone that some of you actually think it is the weapon system that is a problem, makes you realize, that you dont really know whta youre talking about haha. Really. You dont.

Its not the weapon. Its the way, ppl approach the game and play. The opportunistic, coward playstyle.

A real team will brutally smash lrms while loosing ten % armor on three mechs at most with zero losses, Not even one component destroyed and theyre all just 2 weeks into the game and not even on comms. They just play as a team and are no cowards. Easy win. Hard ownage.

[Xiphias]

oneda, on 15 November 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

As I said in another thread with the same title: mwo players are cowards.

This cowardly playstyle of constantly running in circles to try and find easy targest that are left behind and you can kill without a fight make it impossible and ineffective to try to cover your taem form range.

The goal of any engagement is to deal the most damage to the enemy while taking the least in return. Depending on the mech build this might best be achieved through nascar (fast mechs) or through sniping (long range mechs). One style isn't necessarily more cowardly than another. There are plenty of people who would say that sitting the back sniping while requiring your team to hold the front lines is a cowardly way of playing.

A team that can quickly rotate and pick off a slow mech or two without taking return fire will have the advantage. The problem comes when the team doesn't know when to stop nascaring and counter rotate or stand and fight. This leads to mechs getting left behind as both sides chew up the tail of the other. Similarly, when snipers refuse to rotate with their team and instead just sit in the back it's their fault if they get picked off. If you're solo playing you have to monitor your team's position and adjust accordingly.

I'm still able to play sniping mechs it just requires a more active playstyle and more constant re-positioning. To me that is more fun that sitting on a crystal somewhere playing whack-a-mole the whole match