Dimento Graven, on 30 October 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:
Except that the amount of armor on a leg hasn't changed. Let's say it takes only 120 points of damage to core the CT of the average 'mech. Let's say the average alpha is 50 points. 12 'mechs focusing on a 'mech hit for 600 points of damage. Result: Dead 'mech first salvo. Likewise, 8 'mechs focusing on an enemy hit for 400 points of damage. Result: Dead 'mech first salvo.
Difference in TTK: None.
Let's say there is linear damage falloff for your 600/400 points of damage. At optimal range (x) TTK is the same. At maximum range (2x) no damage is done. With 600 points of damage the max kill range is 1.8x, with 400 it is 1.7x. With 400m optimal range weapons that's 40m difference, with 800m it's 80m, not huge, but potentially significant in a fight.
In a bit of a more practical sense, by your math it takes 3 mechs to insta kill a single mech. In a 12v12 that means that there can be 3 groups that can instantly kill a mech. In an 8v8 there are only two groups that can do this. Again not a major difference, but it does increase TTK. The more players on each side the greater the chance that individual players are going to get insta-killed. The fewer players the more coordinated an attack has to be to instantly kill a target. You only need 20% accuracy/engagement from a 12 man, but you need 30% from an 8 man.
Also of importance is the rate at which the damage is coming in. That's why PPCs are more dangerous than lasers. With a slow rate of incoming damage the player has time to twist and spread damage to different components. More players increases the rate of incoming damage and reduces the amount of time the player has to twist. This is part of why high alpha laser vomit is effective and why chain firing is bad.
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No, I don't think I admitted that all. Pretty sure I argued against it. The potato will die just as fast as they do now, just as fast as they did in the original 8v8 format.
Dimento Graven, on 30 October 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:
the same idiot potatoes who insist on running out into open field will be just as focused as they were before, the only difference 4 less 'mechs are going to make is about 1 extra second of life.
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So what you're saying is you want to be punished even more for MM stuffing potatoes in your group then? Since 1/8 > 1/12, that means you get stuck with a potato or two (or just the standard "random" DC), and you're probably doomed to lose. Funny I remember people making that complaint back when 8v8 was all we had.
Sure, a single disco is going to make a bigger difference in 8v8 just like in scouting. It's a fair point and a valid concern. The effect of each individual player is going to matter more. A good player will have a higher impact on the team as will a potato. More players smooths out the effect of individual contribution. Currently we have scouting and I really enjoy that mode, in part because it feels like I can make a significant contribution. I won't always have potatoes on my team, but I will always have myself on the team. If I can contribute more than the average potato it's a net win for me.
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The point actually should be: This is a team game. The team members should coordinate amongst themselves to do well in the match. In 8v8 if you had a 'rambozo' or a potato, or a disco your team was disproportionately punished for that.
But in practice it isn't this. Teams lose in the mechlab, are unlikely to listen, and even if they do often lack the skill to execute things properly. Good players already know where they need to go and what they need to do. It takes very little effort to coordinate an experienced group.
If I want a team I go and play in group queue because I at least know that I can depend on my teammates. In solo queue I just go in with the mindset that half my team isn't going to know what they are doing and that I'll probably have to work extra hard if I want to win.
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Yes, in 12v12 that punishment can be felt "less" as there are more team members to make up the difference. But every member of an 8v8 team is just as important as every member of a 12v12 team.
Just like it was in 8v8, by the way...
I still don't understand what you mean by this. If I have 1000 teammates I care a whole lot less if one of them dies than if I only have one teammate. You've just said the effect can be felt less. It has less impact on the team performance. That player is less important to the team. You mean that in a 2 man team both players are equally important within the team?
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More 'mechs has always equaled more options. Less pieces in a game doesn't increase complexity or available strategies, very much the opposite.
In some ways more mechs does decrease the strategies available. Take Canyon for example. In a 1v1 situation there are a lot of places that a player can move/hide/poke. A good light pilot can take advantage of this to work down a bigger mech over time by disengaging and reengaging from different locations.
With larger groups there are more mechs covering positions making it harder to sneak around or engage from a flank because there are more mechs available to cover the flanks. In an 8v8 it's a significant investment to send two mechs to chase off a flanker. In a 12v12 it's not nearly as significant. At a certain point having more mechs actually decreases your tactical options because there simply isn't enough space for all the mechs. You can't push a small choke point against a large team because the mechs will block each other and get focused down. A small team can push another small team through that same choke because they don't have as many mechs.
More mechs can equal more options, but it doesn't always.
SFC174, on 30 October 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:
I find it amusing, now bordering on irritating, that folks in favor of 8v8 keep bringing up the same arguments without proof.
For example, the idea that matchmaking will be better. The only way you can logically come to that conclusion is if you believe that currently player ranking (PSR) is an accurate representation of skill/ability to contribute, and that the dearth of available players is leading to expanded tier matches which is reducing matchmaking quality.
Yet, we all know that such a belief is not grounded in any sort of factual data. There are people in Tier1 that have horrible stats, yet they are weighted equally with Tier1 players in the top 1% when it comes to PSR based matchmaking. Thus, more Tier1 only matches will not mean improved matchmaking, because the fundamental basis for said matchmaking is fatally flawed to begin with.
PSR does a decent job for the lower tiers. It's really only in T1 that it starts to fall apart. It would definitely help players in lower tiers to be more evenly matched. Ideally there would also be an adjustment to deal with the T1 problem, but that is a separate issue.
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We could also poke holes in the idea of TTK increasing (how many times do you get focused by more than 3-4 mechs at a time, and if so, how in the hell did you make that mistake
- not aimed at anyone in particular, but seriously, the "8 mechs have less firepower than 12 so TTK will go up" is a logical dead end because you are ignoring all the variables involved in focused fire).
In bigger groups there are more groups of 3-4 mechs that can potentially 1 shot you, the rate of DPS is overall going to be faster, and there are few places where a player can disengage from that fire (more enemy angles). In a 2v2 where pilots are focusing, one mech will die twice as fast as it would in a 1v1. Sure there are other variables, but even when you add them in it basically boils down to more mechs = more firepower = dies faster. The details are more complicated, but the conclusion is fairly sound.
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Personally, I suspect that grouping up and deathballing would be more common in 8v8 today because leaving the group would be much scarier and more impacting if that gamble fails. But that's just an opinion, don't have any basis for that other than PUG observations.
For people that know what they are doing it would be less scary and for people that don't they should have stayed with the deathball anyway. The number of pugs I've watched die from "flanking" is way too high.
I'm not even calling for 8v8 to come back. I really don't feel strongly one way or another. I can see the pros and cons of both. I do think that when it's introduced it's probably a sign that the game is dying though.
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