86 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

slide, on 31 October 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

Whilst I don't have a problem with OP's idea, it won't work in the current environment for the exact same reason ghost heat, energy draw etc won't work. It will all just devolve into the least worst option to get maximum alpha. As someone said, eventually forced chain fire.

If people still want huge alphas in the game then make the Alpha Strike a consumable. You get it once so make it count.

I am not trying to stop alpha strikes. Alpha strike is MWOs dirty secret. Alpha strike damage should be controlled better better but crushed down to 20 or 30 pts, certainly not chainfire only.

[davoodoo]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 October 2017 - 10:34 PM, said:

When discussing DPS and lasers, it isn't about the full-expose DPS that you use UACs for. This is for poking. If you are running overly hot, you leave gaps in your wall of fire that the enemy can exploit. If both sides happened to equip for poke, the side with the superior sustain can push on the other one. It's that simple. That's what happened in the ED PTS. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if that superior sustained output wasn't also joined by both superior damage and superior range, but it is.

If you happened to bring ballistics, then the other side can't push on you, but you also can't really poke very well because of projectile flight time requiring before-hand knowledge of where the target is going to be in order to properly calculate deflection.

But even ballistics vs. ballistics goes to the Clans simply because IS ballistics boats don't typically bring extra DHS. Clan ones do.

Yes and no.

What you can get with energy for less than 35 heat? thatll be 5 er mediums for 35 dmg or 4 heavy mediums for 40 dmg or 7 med pulses for 49 dmg

On the other hand 2 uac10 can put 40 dmg while 4 uac10 can put 80 dmg without breaking heat cap, so 50 ton hbk2c can put as high alpha with uac10 as with energy while 100 ton kodiak can put much more than possible with energy.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 November 2017 - 02:13 AM.

[Dogstar]

Actually I think there's something to this idea overall except that I'd do it based on the number of hardpoints not the number of weapons fitted - that way people would know in advance what they're getting and the calculations would be much simpler - effectively it's a type of quirking but based on a common factor.

e.g. No. of [type] hardpoints - Effect

1 - 20% bonus
2 - 10% bonus
3 - 5% bonus
4-5 - 'normal'
6+ - 10% penalty

Of course the other thing that would help fix this issue is sized hardpoints.

Edited by Dogstar, 01 November 2017 - 02:19 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Athom83, on 31 October 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

No. Adding another of a weapon is an investment in tonnage and heat inefficiency at the tradeoff of speed. Adding yet another drawback on top of that, then what is the point of having anything but 1 of a single weapon and a really big engine?

Well, that's the tradeoff isn't it... do you want one weapon and a big engine so you go faster, but hit lighter... or do you want more weapons, to hit harder, but go slower?

hey, what do you know, a tradeoff... shocking.

[InspectorG]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

...
This is a pro mix build system.

Ill raise you one simpler fix to boating.

Pick desired Alpha/DPS per weight class, per chassis, per vatiant.

Limit what can be grouped in Weapon Grouping

Put hard 1 second cooldown between firing of Groups.

Caveat for edge cases with only 2 weapons, like Gauss jager, Spider-V, etc.

ALSO stymies Macros(if thats even a problem these days).

Likely easy to code, bulk of work is determining Alphas/DPS and Chassis descriptions letting players know this info on each mech.

Also, aside from quirks, underperformers can have a larger alpha/DPS than their tonnage dictates(if such build is possible on said mech).

[Kin3ticX]

Dogstar, on 01 November 2017 - 02:17 AM, said:

Actually I think there's something to this idea overall except that I'd do it based on the number of hardpoints not the number of weapons fitted - that way people would know in advance what they're getting and the calculations would be much simpler - effectively it's a type of quirking but based on a common factor.

e.g. No. of [type] hardpoints - Effect

1 - 20% bonus
2 - 10% bonus
3 - 5% bonus
4-5 - 'normal'
6+ - 10% penalty

Of course the other thing that would help fix this issue is sized hardpoints.

Hmmmm, this also has some potential snags. 3 energy hardpoints on a shadowcat can get a 40+alpha whereas on a Phoenix hawk aka "Pixie" 3 energy hardpoints only nets a 27 alpha with 3xLL.

I dunno, like I said in my OP, my idea is potentially bad and furthermore nothing much else than pie in the sky.

Its very likely PGI already considered both plans and axe'd them long ago. Then again, I am also surprised energy draw would make it to PTS considering there are better ways to go about handicapping bad mechs against gud ones.

[Mole]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 01 November 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

Well, that's the tradeoff isn't it... do you want one weapon and a big engine so you go faster, but hit lighter... or do you want more weapons, to hit harder, but go slower?

hey, what do you know, a tradeoff... shocking.

I feel like this notion is a tradeoff in speed for more firepower only applies to a few 'mechs as there are plenty of 'mechs out there than can be absolutely deadly with their engine capped out and this logic also completely ignores omnimechs which don't even get the option of trading in their engine.

Edited by Mole, 01 November 2017 - 10:54 AM.

[Khobai]

all we really need is large lasers, medium lasers, and gauss all linked for ghost heat.

that stops pretty much every abusive weapon combination thats still left. no more 2 gauss+6 med lasers. no more 2 large lasers+6 medium lasers. no more 2 gauss+2 large lasers+6 medium lasers. fixed.

adding new ghost systems when changes to the existing ghost system will suffice makes no sense and just overcomplicates things even more.

yes ghost heat sucks, its terrible, we hate it, but the reality is its all we have... and its unlikely to go anywhere at this point. so we all just have to deal with it.


as for the hardpoint starved mechs. just give them more hardpoints. non-light mechs really shouldnt have less than 8 hardpoints these days. and light mechs probably shouldnt have less than 6 hardpoints.

Edited by Khobai, 01 November 2017 - 11:05 AM.

[Mole]

Khobai, on 01 November 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

all we really need is large lasers, medium lasers, and gauss all linked for ghost heat

thats stops pretty much every abusive weapon combination thats still left

adding new ghost systems when changes to the existing ghost system will suffice makes no sense and just overcomplicates things even more.

If you're going to do this why not just remove ghost heat altogether and make it to where 'mechs are only capable of chainfire? Damn.

[Jackal Noble]

Only read the first page.
At OP - interesting and somewhat original concept esp when paired against some of the other alternatives we've seen on here.

[Khobai]

Quote

If you're going to do this why not just remove ghost heat altogether and make it to where 'mechs are only capable of chainfire? Damn.

because thats far more extreme than linking large lasers, medium lasers, and gauss

linking large/medium lasers and gauss really isnt that bad.

ideally, you could still do 2 gauss+2 large lasers+2 medium lasers, or 2 gauss+4 medium lasers, or 2 large lasers+4 medium lasers without ghost heat.

youd just be limited to firing a max of 6 weapons at a time without suffering ghost heat, with no more than 2 large lasers in that combination. and gauss has no ghost heat limit but is still limited by the fact you cant charge more than 2 at a time.

since heavy lasers got bent over last patch, I think those combinations would be fine.

Edited by Khobai, 01 November 2017 - 11:16 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Maybe if it applied across the board? But still it would be a no from me.

What the OP suggests is really just more weird loopholes around how to spit high alphas in how it would play out, one ac20 and one ac 10 and one large laser, and one block of srm/mrm, and one PPC for maximised bonuses on all of them, while being able to alpha fire the whole packet? I vote a big no.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 01 November 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

all we really need is large lasers, medium lasers, and gauss all linked for ghost heat.

that stops pretty much every abusive weapon combination thats still left. no more 2 gauss+6 med lasers. no more 2 large lasers+6 medium lasers. no more 2 gauss+2 large lasers+6 medium lasers. fixed.

adding new ghost systems when changes to the existing ghost system will suffice makes no sense and just overcomplicates things even more.

yes ghost heat sucks, its terrible, we hate it, but the reality is its all we have... and its unlikely to go anywhere at this point. so we all just have to deal with it.


as for the hardpoint starved mechs. just give them more hardpoints. non-light mechs really shouldnt have less than 8 hardpoints these days. and light mechs probably shouldnt have less than 6 hardpoints.

No more laser boats, mlas becomes poors man llas.

All hail ballistic boating...

I wonder when ballistic boating will become a problem...

Edited by davoodoo, 01 November 2017 - 01:01 PM.

[Grus]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 October 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

We already have that now. That's only 54 damage; limit yourself to similar and you can do the same thing in any energy-centric Clan 'Mech 55 tons and up.

that's only because there is not another viable option.

[Daurock]

davoodoo, on 01 November 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

No more laser boats, mlas becomes poors man llas.

All hail ballistic boating...

I wonder when ballistic boating will become a problem...

If/when the ghost heat tables for lasers become linked, It'd make sense to bring up some of the GH numbers for some lasers. If they were all shared, they could easily target a value (say 40 for LL and ML) and balance around that being the usual "Standard" alpha. No one says they still can't bring more and simply Split their alpha into 2 groups. (80 damage over 2 seconds is not dramatically different than the current 80 damage over 1.5 seconds) It would, however, require a little actual skill on the battlefield, instead of simply gaming it out via mechlab.

[davoodoo]

Daurock, on 01 November 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

If/when the ghost heat tables for lasers become linked, It'd make sense to bring up some of the GH numbers for some lasers. If they were all shared, they could easily target a value (say 40 for LL and ML) and balance around that being the usual "Standard" alpha. No one says they still can't bring more and simply Split their alpha into 2 groups. (80 damage over 2 seconds is not dramatically different than the current 80 damage over 1.5 seconds) It would, however, require a little actual skill on the battlefield, instead of simply gaming it out via mechlab.

Except not, is mediums and larges already follow 30 dmg limit, while clan mediums offer 42 dmg while larges 24 dmg...

If you raise that limit to lets say 9 mediums(hbk4p loadout) for is you are back at square one of 45 instead of 50 dmg(3lpl 4mediums blr1g)...
And for clans its already 42 dmg, so what?/ lets throw 1 more for 49 dmg?? i dont think the point of the fix was 15 dmg and 11 tons less while breaking mad2c and supernova

Edited by davoodoo, 01 November 2017 - 02:00 PM.

[slide]

Kin3ticX, on 01 November 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

I am not trying to stop alpha strikes. Alpha strike is MWOs dirty secret. Alpha strike damage should be controlled better better but crushed down to 20 or 30 pts, certainly not chainfire only.

I agree that a 20-30 point alpha is about the mark.

However before any system is implemented some upper limit on alphas has to be agreed upon, otherwise we are just chasing our tails. Any system will be gamed with the inevitable backlash that X alpha or Y mech being OP. Please nerf. Look at the history of OP mechs in this game. From my admittedly poor memory.

Gausapault (30 dmg)
Streakcat (18 all CT)
Splatcat (36+)
AC40 Jager (40)
Laser Vomit Banshee (50+)
5LPL Battlemaster 2c (55, now 50)
3 UAC5 Ilya (15/30 + high rate of fire)
6ppc Stalker
and on and on. And yet not one of these is competitive today and the solutions to nerf them have all but crippled other builds particularly builds that rely on only one of those weapons systems that made those OP mechs powerful.

By today;s standards the Alpha on these mechs was insignificant yet they were complained about endlessly and consequently nerfed. Most decent Clan builds are doing 70+ (on heavies).

No amount of ghost heat linking or any other system will work until an upper limit to pinpoint damage can be agreed upon. Powerdraw was on the right track with an upper limit of 30, but the implementation was rubbish.

[Kin3ticX]

slide, on 01 November 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:

I agree that a 20-30 point alpha is about the mark.

However before any system is implemented some upper limit on alphas has to be agreed upon, otherwise we are just chasing our tails. Any system will be gamed with the inevitable backlash that X alpha or Y mech being OP. Please nerf. Look at the history of OP mechs in this game. From my admittedly poor memory.

Gausapault (30 dmg)
Streakcat (18 all CT)
Splatcat (36+)
AC40 Jager (40)
Laser Vomit Banshee (50+)
5LPL Battlemaster 2c (55, now 50)
3 UAC5 Ilya (15/30 + high rate of fire)
6ppc Stalker
and on and on. And yet not one of these is competitive today and the solutions to nerf them have all but crippled other builds particularly builds that rely on only one of those weapons systems that made those OP mechs powerful.

By today;s standards the Alpha on these mechs was insignificant yet they were complained about endlessly and consequently nerfed. Most decent Clan builds are doing 70+ (on heavies).

No amount of ghost heat linking or any other system will work until an upper limit to pinpoint damage can be agreed upon. Powerdraw was on the right track with an upper limit of 30, but the implementation was rubbish.

i meant to type not crushed down to 20-30 pts...

[Y E O N N E]

davoodoo, on 01 November 2017 - 02:10 AM, said:

Yes and no.

What you can get with energy for less than 35 heat? thatll be 5 er mediums for 35 dmg or 4 heavy mediums for 40 dmg or 7 med pulses for 49 dmg

On the other hand 2 uac10 can put 40 dmg while 4 uac10 can put 80 dmg without breaking heat cap, so 50 ton hbk2c can put as high alpha with uac10 as with energy while 100 ton kodiak can put much more than possible with energy.

My cap is 35; I'm not going to hit it by firing even six cERML, which are only 37.8 heat, because it dissipates as it fires. So throw on a Gauss and, looky there, I still have a 57 point alpha strike. Even just five cERLL and a Gauss still gives me 50 points.

By the same token, I can probably get away with firing four cERLL simultaneously.

The ballistics will absolutely trash the lasers on a full-expose push, but they will not win the poke. Flight time prohibits it. Always has. Even a 40-point energy Roughneck will out-poke a dakka Bear.

[Vellron2005]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

This will probably do what people wanted the horrible energy draw system to do without the extra bar BS. I am not sure what all the implications of a system like this would be. I am not even sure how much I like it or what other peoples reaction will be. Maybe nobody even cares. This idea is probably bad even.

The basic idea of Reverse Boating is that it handicaps stock, stock+ builds and bracket builds against boats & specialized mechs. It also handicaps hardpoint starved mechs against hardpoint inflated ones.

I am not trying to throw a bone to lore purists nor am I trying to crush the ebil meta tryhards. If the idea is bad, perhaps a spinoff idea can be pursued.

So what the hell is reverse boating?

Example 1:
1xLRM-10: -20% LRM cooldown
2xLRM-10: Base Cooldown
3xLRM-10: +15% cooldown
4xLRM-10: +30% cooldown

Example 2:
1xAC10: -20% AC-10 cooldown
2xAC10: Base Cooldown
3xAC10: +10% Cooldown
4xAC10: +20% Cooldown

Example 3:

1xMedium Laser: -30% Cooldown, -15% burn time
2xMedium Laser: -20% Cooldown, -10% burn time
3xMedium Laser: -10% Cooldown, -5% burn
4xMedium Laser: Base
5xMedium Laser: -10% cooldown, +5% burn time
6xMedium Laser: -20% cooldown, +15% burn time


Don't read into my reverse boating examples too much, make your own examples, this is just the concept I am relaying.
Basically a mech with a single LRM-10 would have a superior LRM-10 to an LRM boat. Weapons would be boat linked just like in heat scaling.


A combination of cooldown, burntime, range, & more could be used as well as different penalty intensities.

This is a pro mix build system.

Yeah.. sorry, but NO.

Sadly, this game is made in such a way that boating is the ONLY option for some mechs.. Some mechs have varied hardpoints, but what's saaaay, a Nova gonna do? Or a Mad Dog? Or an Executioner?

Even if you just make it so you have peanalites for boating the exact same, like 2 x LRM10s, and not punish 1 LRM 5 + 1 LRM15, you're still gonna make mechs asymmetric, which will piss many people off (me first, I hate asymmetric mechs), and it will mess with cooldown times..

So yeah.. sorry, this game just isn't made that way..