86 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

This will probably do what people wanted the horrible energy draw system to do without the extra bar BS. I am not sure what all the implications of a system like this would be. I am not even sure how much I like it or what other peoples reaction will be. Maybe nobody even cares. This idea is probably bad even.

The basic idea of Reverse Boating is that it handicaps stock, stock+ builds and bracket builds against boats & specialized mechs. It also handicaps hardpoint starved mechs against hardpoint inflated ones.

I am not trying to throw a bone to lore purists nor am I trying to crush the ebil meta tryhards. If the idea is bad, perhaps a spinoff idea can be pursued.

So what the hell is reverse boating?

Example 1:
1xLRM-10: -20% LRM cooldown
2xLRM-10: Base Cooldown
3xLRM-10: +15% cooldown
4xLRM-10: +30% cooldown

Example 2:
1xAC10: -20% AC-10 cooldown
2xAC10: Base Cooldown
3xAC10: +10% Cooldown
4xAC10: +20% Cooldown

Example 3:

1xMedium Laser: -30% Cooldown, -15% burn time
2xMedium Laser: -20% Cooldown, -10% burn time
3xMedium Laser: -10% Cooldown, -5% burn
4xMedium Laser: Base
5xMedium Laser: -10% cooldown, +5% burn time
6xMedium Laser: -20% cooldown, +15% burn time


Don't read into my reverse boating examples too much, make your own examples, this is just the concept I am relaying.
Basically a mech with a single LRM-10 would have a superior LRM-10 to an LRM boat. Weapons would be boat linked just like in heat scaling.


A combination of cooldown, burntime, range, & more could be used as well as different penalty intensities.

This is a pro mix build system.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 31 October 2017 - 10:50 AM.

[davoodoo]

Since piranha is coming up

1 mg - nothing
12mg - nothing

[Athom83]

No. Adding another of a weapon is an investment in tonnage and heat inefficiency at the tradeoff of speed. Adding yet another drawback on top of that, then what is the point of having anything but 1 of a single weapon and a really big engine?

Edited by Athom83, 31 October 2017 - 11:14 AM.

[Khobai]

no thanks. reverse ghost cooldown is just as stupid and ill conceived as ghost heat

except something like ghost heat was actually needed to discourage excessive boating. this isnt needed.

mechs already pay extra tonnage, crit slots, and heat for additional weapons. thats penalty enough.

and ghost heat just needs to be revamped so it doesnt have as many obvious loopholes.

Quote

It also handicaps hardpoint starved mechs against hardpoint inflated ones.

or you could just give hardpoint starved mechs more hardpoints.

which makes way more sense.

Edited by Khobai, 31 October 2017 - 11:05 AM.

[davoodoo]

I really wish ppl would stop working against human nature and tactical sense...

Ppl will rather stop using lasers at all than fire 1 at a time which we already seen with maulers replacing banshees and battlemasters.

Youll reach inevitable step of everything having only chainfirie and ac20 being stronger than medium laser nonsense.

Edited by davoodoo, 31 October 2017 - 11:04 AM.

[Sergeant Soy]

Sounds reasonable. The numbers are a bit drastic maybe.

[FupDup]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Don't read into my reverse boating examples too much, make your own examples, this is just the concept I am relaying.
Basically a mech with a single LRM-10 would have a superior LRM-10 to an LRM boat. Weapons would be boat linked just like in heat scaling.

The examples are pretty important though because many stock mechs are going to be punished unless you put the "base level" amount at a really high value. Like the Hunchback 4P now requires you to set Medium Lasers to allow at least 8 without penalty. Then there's the Nova Prime...

The game really doesn't need to force mix builds, it's not going to work unless you crank the values to absurd levels. Mixed builds will happen on their own when 2+ weapons have good synergy together, such as PPCs + ballistics or lasers + Gauss. If you want more mixed builds then it would be more productive to try to make more weapons compliment each other's strengths/weaknesses.

[Bombast]

This is the diminishing returns system. As such, I endorse it.

[Kin3ticX]

FupDup, on 31 October 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

The examples are pretty important though because many stock mechs are going to be punished unless you put the "base level" amount at a really high value. Like the Hunchback 4P now requires you to set Medium Lasers to allow at least 8 without penalty. Then there's the Nova Prime...

The game really doesn't need to force mix builds, it's not going to work unless you crank the values to absurd levels. Mixed builds will happen on their own when 2+ weapons have good synergy together, such as PPCs + ballistics or lasers + Gauss. If you want more mixed builds then it would be more productive to try to make more weapons compliment each other's strengths/weaknesses.

Its not meant to ban 8ML, just to make the 1 energy on the head of a wolverine not as worthless.

[Kin3ticX]

Sergeant Soy, on 31 October 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

Sounds reasonable. The numbers are a bit drastic maybe.

Yeah i dont want to spend a long time messing with numbers, its just the idea of it.

Khobai, on 31 October 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

or you could just give hardpoint starved mechs more hardpoints.

which makes way more sense.

PGI has done never done that in the 5 years I have played. (except via omnipods....)

[Bud Crue]

Blech
GH is already bad enough.
And consider the all energy (or mostly energy) mechs, or all missile mechs (Catapult 1 for example). Why punish them further when all some of them can do effectively is boat?

Should a Jenner F be punished for carrying 6ML. Why should a Grasshopper that decides to eat the GH and take, say, 8ERML be punished over one that takes 4 and 3LL? Do we punish a Deaths Knell because the only thing it can do is boat 4 energy weapons? Etc.

Apropos, I think any system put in place to act as any sort of governor to a mech should be applied not based on ANY general mechanic such as ghost heat or reverse boating, but should be applied on an individual variant basis, based on both observed data and player input. In other words: if we need to do something to address a certain problematic mech or build, then use a mechanic that applies to ONLY that problematic mech or build. Broad application rules that affect everything is imho the root of nearly every balance problem in this game.

Edited by Bud Crue, 31 October 2017 - 11:29 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

Its not meant to ban 8ML, just to make the 1 energy on the head of a wolverine not as worthless.

To do that I’d go back to the old days and use quirks. Use them with specificity to enhance underperforming weapons or mechs to builds. Use them selectively. Use them with precision.

Alas, that ship has sailed I suppose.

Could also do it by giving each variant a handful of unique nodes, could even use those nodes as a proxy for hard point specific quirks as some folks used to advocate for (e.g. Wolverine has 4 extra nodes in firepower directed to energy weapons or head mounted energy weapons specifically. Could be coold down, heat production range, whatever).

Edited by Bud Crue, 31 October 2017 - 11:38 AM.

[Athom83]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

Its not meant to ban 8ML, just to make the 1 energy on the head of a wolverine not as worthless.

But just 1 energy at one location is supposed to be basically worthless. That 1 hardpoint on the head is meant to be a secondary you have remaining when both your STs are blown and you basically have nothing left. And that is coming from a Wolverine pilot (4 MPL, 1 SRM6a, 1 ERSL is my preferred build).

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

PGI has done never done that in the 5 years I have played. (except via omnipods....)

Um... have you not heard of this mech called the "Banshee"?

[FupDup]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

Its not meant to ban 8ML, just to make the 1 energy on the head of a wolverine not as worthless.

There are other ways to do that, such as:

1. Add Small Cockpit tech to the game, so you can have 2 slots up there instead of just 1. This would require a big mechlab overhaul however, so it's pretty much never gonna happen.

2. Quirks based on weapon location. Also probably not gonna happen...

3. The Wolvie variants that only have the head laser and no other energy slots can be given big laser cooldown quirks without fear of boating. This one is actually feasible. Can also apply to other things like the Grasshopper's face missile.

[Kin3ticX]

Athom83, on 31 October 2017 - 11:38 AM, said:

But just 1 energy at one location is supposed to be basically worthless. That 1 hardpoint on the head is meant to be a secondary you have remaining when both your STs are blown and you basically have nothing left. And that is coming from a Wolverine pilot (4 MPL, 1 SRM6a, 1 ERSL is my preferred build).


Um... have you not heard of this mech called the "Banshee"?

AFAIK the banshee has the same hardpoints its always had. Obviously they wont give people a 95 ton mech with 3 hardpoints.

[MechaBattler]

I like GH. It's not complicated. Gets the job done.

[Athom83]

FupDup, on 31 October 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

3. The Wolvie variants that only have the head laser and no other energy slots can be given big laser cooldown quirks without fear of boating. This one is actually feasible. Can also apply to other things like the Grasshopper's face missile.

Or how about we make the Wolvie's head hardpoint an actual turret that follows the arms (like it is supposed to be)? That, would be awesome and make that 1 slot not worthless.

[Bud Crue]

FupDup, on 31 October 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

There are other ways to do that, such as:

1. Add Small Cockpit tech to the game, so you can have 2 slots up there instead of just 1. This would require a big mechlab overhaul however, so it's pretty much never gonna happen.

2. Quirks based on weapon location. Also probably not gonna happen...

3. The Wolvie variants that only have the head laser and no other energy slots can be given big laser cooldown quirks without fear of boating. This one is actually feasible. Can also apply to other things like the Grasshopper's face missile.

In re #3...not as long as the balance overlord maintains his whole “offensive quirks are bad and need to be dramatically reduced” view of balance. Its a single crit space for a single weapon class, give it all the quirks you care to (within reason) and it is not going to upset balance...but nope its deadly power creep. Sigh.

[Daurock]

I think that in general, Ghost heat as it is works as its intended - To reduce the allowable alpha. Yes, it can still be gamed. ML/LL double dipping into the GH system can and does wreck it. Gauss still adds an explanation point to many builds. These things though, are actually fixable in the framework we have right now, without out adding in a whole new system to rebalance.

As to the problem with mechs having fewer hardpoints being generally worse, I'd argue that that's a Chassis Problem, not a weapons problem. Mechs with fewer useful hardpoints should get larger offensive/defensive quirks than they currently get. A range modifier, for example could make a hardpoint starved mech a potent gauss/ppc/large laser sniper. Alternatively, you could simply add more agility, and armor to emphasize them as a more durable, less firepower oriented variant.

Rather than attempt to bring up the firepower of chassis that lack it, i believe It'd make more sense to differentiate them in other ways. We don't have to go about evening out the firepower aspect every time it's not equal if we can add enough stuff elsewhere to actually even it up. How much extra agility, and durability (for example) does a mech need to keep up with a mech that can boat 2 more lasers though? That's the million dollar question, and one that'd most likely need to be played to figure out.

[Athom83]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

AFAIK the banshee has the same hardpoints its always had. Obviously they wont give people a 95 ton mech with 3 hardpoints.

That isn't what you said. You said PGI has never given hardpoint starved mechs more hardpoints, when in fact they did to a lot of mechs. If they hadn't done that, most Banshee variants would only have 3 or 4 hardpoints (one of those being head mounted, so only 2-3 practical hardpoints) making the 3S the only "viable" selection of all the Banshees because of the number of hardpoints it has. They also have given plenty of other mechs extra hardpoints they wouldn't have had otherwise (Marauder getting extra ballistics hardpoints, Javelin 10P getting a lot of extra missile hardpoint, Centurion 9AH getting 2 additional of each type of hardpoint, etc).