86 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

Athom83, on 31 October 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

That isn't what you said. You said PGI has never given hardpoint starved mechs more hardpoints, when in fact they did to a lot of mechs. If they hadn't done that, most Banshee variants would only have 3 or 4 hardpoints (one of those being head mounted, so only 2-3 practical hardpoints) making the 3S the only "viable" selection of all the Banshees because of the number of hardpoints it has. They also have given plenty of other mechs extra hardpoints they wouldn't have had otherwise (Marauder getting extra ballistics hardpoints, Javelin 10P getting a lot of extra missile hardpoint, Centurion 9AH getting 2 additional of each type of hardpoint, etc).

Relax homeslice. PGI has never changed hardpoints after release

[Khobai]

Quote

Relax homeslice. PGI has never changed hardpoints after release

theyve never added reverse ghost cooldown either.

so whats your point? either way its the first time theyve done that.

but it makes more sense to just add hardpoints to hardpoint starved mechs than to add something ridiculous like reverse ghost cooldown.

this game has enough convoluted game mechanics as is. we dont need more.

Edited by Khobai, 31 October 2017 - 12:10 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Khobai, on 31 October 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

theyve never added reverse ghost cooldown either.

so whats your point? either way its the first time theyve done that.

but it makes more sense to just add hardpoints to hardpoint starved mechs than to add something ridiculous like reverse ghost cooldown.

hop in a time machine back to 2013 and lets hear you cry about 6xPPC stalkers

[Mole]

So uh... ghost cooldown instead of ghost heat...?

Lemme think.

Nah.

[Gas Guzzler]

Athom83, on 31 October 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

That isn't what you said. You said PGI has never given hardpoint starved mechs more hardpoints, when in fact they did to a lot of mechs. If they hadn't done that, most Banshee variants would only have 3 or 4 hardpoints (one of those being head mounted, so only 2-3 practical hardpoints) making the 3S the only "viable" selection of all the Banshees because of the number of hardpoints it has. They also have given plenty of other mechs extra hardpoints they wouldn't have had otherwise (Marauder getting extra ballistics hardpoints, Javelin 10P getting a lot of extra missile hardpoint, Centurion 9AH getting 2 additional of each type of hardpoint, etc).

What he meant (and the obvious way to take it..) was that they haven't looked at say a Catapult-K2 and said, "hm, this mech is short on hardpoints, we should give it more as a balance measure."

[Khobai]

Quote

hop in a time machine back to 2013 and lets hear you cry about 6xPPC stalkers

6 ppc stalkers were never even a problem. nobody cried about them.

the 4 ppc stalker was always a much more effective build.

and even the 4 ppc stalker would be fine compared to other builds we have today like 80 damage laser vomit builds

[FantasticMrDark]

Theres only really 2 ways to prevent high alpha builds that dont require PGI to use much in the way of resources.
Energy Draw or linking every weapon into the same ghost heat group.

Also could have possible have seen Heavy Lasers being a problem

Edited by FantasticMrDark, 31 October 2017 - 12:20 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Theres only really 2 ways to prevent high alpha builds that dont require PGI to use much in the way of resources.

Energy Draw or linking every weapon into the same ghost heat group.

you dont have to link every weapon in the same ghost heat group; only the weapons that are commonly used together because of similar aiming profiles.

like srms dont really need to be linked to lasers for example. non-gauss ballistics dont need to be linked with lasers either. because the travel times on those weapons means they need to be aimed and fired differently from hitscan lasers.

but large lasers should be linked with medium lasers because they have similar aiming profiles. thats one of the last remaining loopholes with ghost heat that needs to be closed. gauss should also probably be linked with lasers because its very high velocity allows it to be fired alongside lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 31 October 2017 - 12:24 PM.

[davoodoo]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 12:09 PM, said:

hop in a time machine back to 2013 and lets hear you cry about 6xPPC stalkers

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...059cb1bd5b5f6dd
this thing??

62 heat capacity 60 heat per shot 97% per salvo, coupled with movement its shutdown, in hot map its shutdown.

But hail our slow king of frozen city...

But if we trim some excess fat
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3d6f57fb9c2bf78
quite a design with amount of firepower worthy of 85tonner.

But i hear instead "nein, ist nicht gestatted"

Edited by davoodoo, 31 October 2017 - 12:39 PM.

[FantasticMrDark]

Khobai, on 31 October 2017 - 12:18 PM, said:

you dont have to link every weapon in the same ghost heat group; only the weapons that are commonly used together because of similar aiming profiles.

like srms dont really need to be linked to lasers for example. non-gauss ballistics dont need to be linked with lasers either. because the travel times on those weapons means they need to be aimed and fired differently from hitscan lasers.

but large lasers should be linked with medium lasers because they have similar aiming profiles. thats one of the last remaining loopholes with ghost heat that needs to be closed. gauss should also probably be linked with lasers because its very high velocity allows it to be fired alongside lasers.

Gauss would need to be put in that energy heat group, since even just ignoring magic 12t Clan Gauss the number of mechs in the game that can run 2 Gauss+Lasers has started to become a bit of a problem.

[Kin3ticX]

davoodoo, on 31 October 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...059cb1bd5b5f6dd
this thing??

62 heat capacity 60 heat per shot 97% per salvo, coupled with movement its shutdown, in hot map its shutdown.

But hail our slow king of frozen city...

But if we trim some excess fat
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3d6f57fb9c2bf78
quite a design with amount of firepower worthy of 85tonner.

But i hear instead "nein, ist nicht gestatted"

back at the height of the 4PPC HighladerP, the 4PPC stalker, and the 6PPC stalker, PPC heat was only 7 and double coolshots were brand new.

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again.

One of the simplest ways to stop boating of any ammo based weapon is to introduce jamming.

2 weapons of the same type or less, no jamming.

However once you go past 2, the odds of a jam and the length of time needed to clear then jam increase at a more dramatic rate the further you go past this threshold.

Quite simple.

[FantasticMrDark]

Boated Autocannons are not really an issue right now.

[Y E O N N E]

I have mused on a similar system before, a proper power draw where there's an energy pool to pull from and going over that imparts a penalty to the cool-down. However, I had two key differences:

1. Conventional ballistics and missiles are excluded from the mechanic
2. The energy pool available to you scales with engine size

High-energy electric weapons would have a short base cool-down, i.e. 1 second for the Medium laser, and an energy draw number.The draw number only applies against the pool as long as the weapon is on cool-down. As long as the total value of your active draw does not exceed your pool, you cool-down at the maximum rate. The catch? Moving eats into the pool, bigger 'Mechs have less efficient movement, and the pool isn't very big to begin with. Ergo, the natural state of play is to always be operating above the line. If you want more maximum DPS, you need to combine with non-energy weapons. This actually lets us lower the rate of fire on non-energy weapons without making them useless and it allows single hard-points to be potent since the DPS of boated energy weapons scales logarithmically, if we decide to let it scale upwards at all (we could set DPS to a fixed point such that DPS is the same for any number of a given energy weapon, or we could make DPS reduce on the net for multiples).

So, we have the following relationship:

Power limits your short-term output.
Heat limits your long-term output.

You can't do this with heat alone. Low cap, high dissipation only limits the short term output, not the long term. High cap, low dissipation only limits the long term, not the short term. High cap, high dissipation limits neither, and adding heat penalties just turns it into a temporary low cap/high dissipation paradigm. Cool-shots give you up to two opportunities to circumvent the system entirely.

Gas Guzzler, on 31 October 2017 - 12:12 PM, said:

What he meant (and the obvious way to take it..) was that they haven't looked at say a Catapult-K2 and said, "hm, this mech is short on hardpoints, we should give it more as a balance measure."

Didn't they actually do the opposite, and remove two hardpoints?

[Andi Nagasia]

didnt i propose something like this earlier this morning?
(What If Having Less Weapons Gave You Better Cooldown On Those Weapons?)
yup, but i agree, having less weapons should offer a cooldown bonus, especially for 1-2 weapon mechs,
but personally i feel it should be Max weapons rather then max Laser / Missile / Ballistic,

[Grus]

We can all agree that we don't want this again https://youtu.be/KqfQsW62Igs

[Y E O N N E]

Grus, on 31 October 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

We can all agree that we don't want this again https://youtu.be/KqfQsW62Igs

We already have that now. That's only 54 damage; limit yourself to similar and you can do the same thing in any energy-centric Clan 'Mech 55 tons and up.

[Sjorpha]

Grus, on 31 October 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

We can all agree that we don't want this again https://youtu.be/KqfQsW62Igs

Lol, current clan laser vomit is way worse than that already, if anything losing GH on IS larges would at best give IS a corresponding laser vom option.

[DAYLEET]

This is basically the quirk mechanic done automaticaly with the negative quirk comeback. Its better than what we have now, plain ghost heat.

Athom83, on 31 October 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Adding another of a weapon is an investment in tonnage and heat inefficiency

And everybody does it because its the easiest and best way to play with no tradeoff big enough to compensate for the pluses. Range isnt important outside of one map, heat isnt important if you have enough hardpoint for a big enough alpha because you can wait or drink a cola in a brawl.

[SeventhSL]

Kin3ticX, on 31 October 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

This will probably do what people wanted the horrible energy draw system to do without the extra bar BS. I am not sure what all the implications of a system like this would be. I am not even sure how much I like it or what other peoples reaction will be. Maybe nobody even cares. This idea is probably bad even.

The basic idea of Reverse Boating is that it handicaps stock, stock+ builds and bracket builds against boats & specialized mechs. It also handicaps hardpoint starved mechs against hardpoint inflated ones.

I am not trying to throw a bone to lore purists nor am I trying to crush the ebil meta tryhards. If the idea is bad, perhaps a spinoff idea can be pursued.

So what the hell is reverse boating?

Example 1:
1xLRM-10: -20% LRM cooldown
2xLRM-10: Base Cooldown
3xLRM-10: +15% cooldown
4xLRM-10: +30% cooldown

Example 2:
1xAC10: -20% AC-10 cooldown
2xAC10: Base Cooldown
3xAC10: +10% Cooldown
4xAC10: +20% Cooldown

Example 3:

1xMedium Laser: -30% Cooldown, -15% burn time
2xMedium Laser: -20% Cooldown, -10% burn time
3xMedium Laser: -10% Cooldown, -5% burn
4xMedium Laser: Base
5xMedium Laser: -10% cooldown, +5% burn time
6xMedium Laser: -20% cooldown, +15% burn time


Don't read into my reverse boating examples too much, make your own examples, this is just the concept I am relaying.
Basically a mech with a single LRM-10 would have a superior LRM-10 to an LRM boat. Weapons would be boat linked just like in heat scaling.


A combination of cooldown, burntime, range, & more could be used as well as different penalty intensities.

This is a pro mix build system.

This creates a trade off for boating (alpha strike) and as such it is an excellent solution. My only issue is that is doesn't go far enough. We also need trade offs for things like speed, hard point placement and uncompetitive weapons like LRM/ LBX. While we could manufacture a game mechanic for each of these there is one that could cover all of it. Accuracy. The bigger the alpha strike the less accurate it is. The faster your moving the less accurate your fire. Well your get the idea.