218 replies to this topic

[NocturnalBeast]

NO! This does not belong in "A Thinking Man's Shooter".

[Mystere]

qS Sachiel, on 05 November 2017 - 07:56 PM, said:

... knighthood was all about honor ...

Where is the honor in knights considering the deflowering women as their God-given right and butchering anyone who objected?

[NocturnalBeast]

Mystere, on 06 November 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

Where is the honor in knights considering the deflowering women as their God-given right and butchering anyone who objected?

That was not all knights. Just like cops, or soldiers there are good and bad one's. This applies to people in positions of power anywhere.

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

Hobbles v, on 01 November 2017 - 05:45 AM, said:

taking control of shooting away from the hand that pulls the trigger is limitting. It would make targetting specific components troublesome as you wpuld have to cycle through parts to target beyond centre of mass shooting. Switch8ng targets would be a pain too. Notice a hurt mech in the back of a push? Too bad you have to press r 5 times to cycle thrpugh his buddies before you can kill him.

V.A.T.S. anyone?

[YueFei]

adamts01, on 05 November 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

I don't think we play the same game.... The heavy large laser build dishes out 64 damage. Against another Hellbringer with maxed armor and zero in the rear you'll shred all ST armor with a single shot and get the CT down to 20 armor. Maybe we have different definitions of crippled, but starting a match with no ST armor puts you in a pretty bad position, especially with all the MGs out there.

I think different players have different experiences here, but I've demonstrated that there are plenty of mechs which can juke fast enough that you cannot focus all damage onto the same component by reactively adjusting your aim. And that includes some Assault mechs, if the player uses leg turning simultaneously with accel/decel. They are able to laterally displace >= 1 meter within 250 milliseconds, enough to cause your salvo to strike the component adjacent to the intended one... and that's assuming aimbot pixel-perfect aim into the center of a hitbox, just with human-level reflexes in terms of reacting to target movements. And there's no human who aims as well as an aimbot anyway.

The problem is that a lot of players rely on reacting to being shot at (including myself!), but this is too slow (just from the opposite perspective), and to top it all off it also includes your latency. There's Host-State-Rewind for your shots, there's no such thing as Host-State-Rewind for twisting/juking an incoming shot. But if you move defensively in a pro-active fashion (by being the one peeking instead of the one being peeked-on), or in an anticipatory fashion, you can spread the damage you're taking.

When I potato myself in front of someone, and end up absorbing their entire salvo into a single component, and get opened up, always I can blame myself for making some kind of mistake.

If the game were really as you claim it to be, then when the top players face each other, they would merely core each other out with hardly any damage anywhere else, but that isn't the case.

Edited by YueFei, 06 November 2017 - 10:49 PM.

[adamts01]

YueFei, on 06 November 2017 - 10:48 PM, said:

I think different players have different experiences here, but I've demonstrated that there are plenty of mechs which can juke fast enough that you cannot focus all damage onto the same component by reactively adjusting your aim. And that includes some Assault mechs, if the player uses leg turning simultaneously with accel/decel.
........
If the game were really as you claim it to be, then when the top players face each other, they would merely core each other out with hardly any damage anywhere else, but that isn't the case.

I can't argue with that, but I can say that few players are at that level. Based on what I've seen lately, about half of the heavies and assaults don't torso twist at all when they get shot. Forget about reaction times and combining twisting with throttle, they literally watch the lasers like they're deer stuck in headlights.

[JigglyMoobs]

adamts01, on 07 November 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

I can't argue with that, but I can say that few players are at that level. Based on what I've seen lately, about half of the heavies and assaults don't torso twist at all when they get shot. Forget about reaction times and combining twisting with throttle, they literally watch the lasers like they're deer stuck in headlights.

That's because they suck.

[sycocys]

Auto-aim is the worst idea suggestion since 3PV, so it's probably going to happen in some mad attempt for the devs and their 5 year old children be able to feel like they can compete with the top tier players.

[YueFei]

adamts01, on 07 November 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

I can't argue with that, but I can say that few players are at that level. Based on what I've seen lately, about half of the heavies and assaults don't torso twist at all when they get shot. Forget about reaction times and combining twisting with throttle, they literally watch the lasers like they're deer stuck in headlights.

I think if we had a larger population, one where players of different skill levels could be properly partitioned, then this problem would probably go away (or at least not be visible to the better players). Maybe combined with a better single-player training program, and/or the community training newer players.

On the other hand, you also have some players who don't ever really want to learn or improve. Hell, I got a bit burned out on this game and stopped caring about learning or improving. It's only recently that I picked up interest again, but I have a long way to go to get better.

I try to torso twist, but sometimes too late, because in that moment when I have to make a snap decision, for some idiotic reason I derp and I decide to continue to shoot my own salvo rather than realizing that I'm going to lose that trade against an enemy Assault mech and lose it pretty hard.

I watch some of the better players and I see them peek and go "lolnope" so much quicker and juke and dive for cover instead. B33f's "no!" and Proton's high-pitched "ahhhhh!" always cracks me up.

[NocturnalBeast]

sycocys, on 07 November 2017 - 03:22 AM, said:

Auto-aim is the worst idea suggestion since 3PV, so it's probably going to happen in some mad attempt for the devs and their 5 year old children be able to feel like they can compete with the top tier players.

I hope this is not the case, hopefully they play some Destiny 2 pvp matches using a mouse and keyboard versus players using controllers before making that decision.

Edited by Ed Steele, 07 November 2017 - 12:16 PM.

[Tralik]

I am opposed to automated aiming in general. Being nothing more than a chauffeur removes the only skill that really means much to the game and makes it a shooter as opposed to an RPG. It also removes elements that make the game exciting like having to watch your firing lanes for fear of ripping out a teammate's back. But I do think there is a valid argument to make to alter or limit pinpoint accuracy. Something as simple as having weapons with fixed convergence that converge at their optimal range and anything inside or beyond that range starts to spread in a cone again. Or, make part of the weapons group settings an option to adjust convergence range.

[NocturnalBeast]

Tralik, on 07 November 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

I am opposed to automated aiming in general. Being nothing more than a chauffeur removes the only skill that really means much to the game and makes it a shooter as opposed to an RPG. It also removes elements that make the game exciting like having to watch your firing lanes for fear of ripping out a teammate's back. But I do think there is a valid argument to make to alter or limit pinpoint accuracy. Something as simple as having weapons with fixed convergence that converge at their optimal range and anything inside or beyond that range starts to spread in a cone again. Or, make part of the weapons group settings an option to adjust convergence range.

Cone of fire does not belong in this game, unless you are talking about SRMs, Flamers, or LBx autocannons (or machine guns under certain circumstances). Pinpoint aiming is skill based in this game unless you are using an aimbot.

[Shifty McSwift]

It would be pretty cool to have a weapon system that functioned like this, where you could choose what component it targeted and as long as you held lock or cursor over a target and fire, that weapon system automatically direct fires at said location, kind of like how an AMS autofires at its own specific target, that way the target can still benefit from twisting etc too.

I doubt how "doable" even that is though really in actuality, but it is an interesting thought.

[FupDup]

Shifty McSwift, on 07 November 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

It would be pretty cool to have a weapon system that functioned like this, where you could choose what component it targeted and as long as you held lock or cursor over a target and fire, that weapon system automatically direct fires at said location, kind of like how an AMS autofires at its own specific target, that way the target can still benefit from twisting etc too.

I doubt how "doable" even that is though really in actuality, but it is an interesting thought.

That's how I think all MWO lock-on missiles should be, or at bare minimum Streaks.

[Shifty McSwift]

FupDup, on 07 November 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

That's how I think all MWO lock-on missiles should be, or at bare minimum Streaks.

Yeah there is a level of functionality that would need to be added there in choosing target locations for a weapon, unless it just auto-preferred areas like it does now.

But yeah an automated machine gun or something too could be interesting.

[Grus]

The6thMessenger, on 31 October 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

I recently played with Armored Core, and i noticed how they handled their combat. 3rd Person, lock-dependent, auto-aim with automated target lead. It does make the game feel a lot more electronic or machine-based.

So you want the Circle of RNG rage that is in WoT... no thank you.

[adamts01]

Ed Steele, on 07 November 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

Cone of fire does not belong in this game, unless you are talking about SRMs, Flamers, or LBx autocannons (or machine guns under certain circumstances). Pinpoint aiming is skill based in this game unless you are using an aimbot.

Call of Duty uses a cone of fire and is one of the most competitive games out there. How is pinpoint aiming skill based in this game but not that one?

While aiming is obviously a skill, managing fire rate, range, and having to choose between prioritizing movement or fire are also skills which you see in plenty of other successful shooters, but this "think man's shooter" lacks... It would add depth to the game and fix most balance problems, not nerf skill in any way.

[qS Sachiel]

Mystere, on 06 November 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

Where is the honor in knights considering the deflowering women as their God-given right and butchering anyone who objected?

If people are so easily distracted from a conversation, how can we expect them to keep a moving target in their sights under fire?
Go back to Braveheart.

adamts01, on 07 November 2017 - 07:43 PM, said:

Call of Duty uses a cone of fire and is one of the most competitive games out there. How is pinpoint aiming skill based in this game but not that one?

lol

Edited by qS Sachiel, 07 November 2017 - 07:47 PM.

[adamts01]

adamts01, on 07 November 2017 - 07:43 PM, said:

Call of Duty uses a cone of fire and is one of the most competitive games out there. How is pinpoint aiming skill based in this game but not that one?

qS Sachiel, on 07 November 2017 - 07:46 PM, said:

lol

Why don't you answer the question then. Most modern competitive shooters use a cone of fire mechanic. Why is shifting from pinpoint accuracy in MWO a nerf to skill but not a nerf to skill in games with an actual e-sports presence? Real life snipers have a cone of fire, and it's a skill to recognize external affecting factors and appropriately compensate by controlling range. It adds additional required skills to the table, and doesn't remove any.

[qS Sachiel]

adamts01, on 07 November 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

Why don't you answer the question then. Most modern competitive shooters use a cone of fire mechanic. Why is shifting from pinpoint accuracy in MWO a nerf to skill but not a nerf to skill in games with an actual e-sports presence? Real life snipers have a cone of fire, and it's a skill to recognize external affecting factors and appropriately compensate by controlling range. It adds additional required skills to the table, and doesn't remove any.

Your post proposes that CoD is competitive, not that there is high skill base required.

Also, I could care less about whether it's played as an e-sport or whatever that even means, but if i did, i'd show you how games like Quake, UT, Tribes which are the fundamentals of the FPS genre and underpin every single game you play and the majority of mechanics in game bar these new 'realism 101 mode (with obligatory 360noscopedoritos)' were also played in 'esports'.

Whats more, is that I proposed in several previous comments that the MWO game is far better represented by these alternatives to your 'Modern military shooter' and also don't have any bloom or COF (with specific exceptions in Tribes).

So the point was already addressed.

I don't acknowledge merit in anything you said, and find it funny that you think a mechanism is superior just because it's in recent games and because it's in CoD (a 'competitive game' also games like chess, LaCrosse and Olympic swiming).

And again 'lol' because given your only example and correlation to e-sports, you seem to believe that CoD is the epitome of gaming and skill-based games.

But because you asked:

Quote

While aiming is obviously a skill, managing fire rate, range, and having to choose between prioritizing movement or fire are also skills which you see in plenty of other successful shooters, but this "think man's shooter" lacks... It would add depth to the game and fix most balance problems, not nerf skill in any way.

Fire rate: CoD is a spammers heaven. I stopped playing at MW1 but its just run and gun, spray and pray, spam nades and wallbang (though i did stop at MW1, these tactics got me to the top every match).
Range: There is no accurate ballistic model in CoD. Stop please. Also, what bullet drop do you expect given the maps force engagements <20m on average.
Movement / Fire: Lol this is the game that basically patented the dolphin dive, the 360noscope, the leap attack SMG spam?

Other notable contributions to the gaming community provided by Call of Duty:
Soap
Kevin Spacey
Kit Harrington
Shooting perfect aim across the map with a M1911
Martyr & last stand
Knife only with perks to increase your ability to move around and 1hit KO.

But they have a dynamic crosshair just to get you realism junkies in the mood for some 360noscope

'lol'

Edited by qS Sachiel, 08 November 2017 - 01:31 AM.