153 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bonzai VI, on 15 November 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

@Dakota1000

Just jumping in to say: Firing 4 shots with HLL takes 28 seconds of cooldown, it takes another 6.2 seconds for the duration (without quirks)
He needs 34 seconds to get hot. That is to heatefficient if you can't deal enough damage in the meantime.
(And HLL are certainly no DPS weapon)
With quirks it would aproxemately be ~26 seconds cooldown and 5.58 duration.
Thats still ~31.6 seconds.

@MischiefSC

Well, tbh MGs are flat out broken the way they are now.
But the IS-MPL works surprisingly well in scouting, it's maybe the only place they work since range is no problem there.^^

And shooting legs is still inefficient. Just because people don't even try to roll the damage doesn't mean it's good.

I discount the first shot's cooldown but count its duration in my calculations, as you don't have to wait a cooldown duration to fire first shot. When calculating effective DPS its always higher than the weapon's raw DPS value, getting closer to that raw value as the combat time gets closer to infinity.

MischiefSC, on 15 November 2017 - 10:19 AM, said:

Almost anything, tbh. The Wolfhound was strong with ermls and poking. IS MPLs are a huge steaming pile of ****. An ACH with MGs and CERMLs even is better. More range and MGs are hitscan. 6 cersmls even is better.

A flamer, some MGs and ersmls is also a nasty thing to do to people.

End of the day though you don't want to take a light. You want 2 or 3 hbk/nva/hmn. One or two viper or Ice Ferret (Viper, really).

One or two set for range, the rest brawl. Make sure the range one has decent heat management.

50 or 100pts on legs before you close and you've clinched it. At that point it's just math.

I really have to disagree with IS MPLs being bad, they are extremely accurate, provide a decent alpha strike, and they run just frosty for what you put out. ERML poking works well enough with the Wolfhound, but in more competitive scenarios (including their occasional use in the last WC) the 6 MPL build puts in work. I don't see machine guns to be a serious threat when facing a Wolfhound, the vast majority of their health is in armor and having to have constant face time on them won't work out nicely when their trade duration is under a second, just in terms of how much damage you spread compared to them it would be a losing scenario.

Adding in a ranged guy to the drop of 3 brawlers does mix things up a bit, I can't say I really trust that it outweighs the disadvantage that your brawlers will have being outnumbered *and* out gunned/armored, maybe that ranged guy is able to finish off the remaining enemies if your brawlers managed to leg all of them or at least take out a few so that the ranged guy has enough time to cooldown more than twice.

[MischiefSC]

Bonzai VI, on 15 November 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

@Dakota1000

Just jumping in to say: Firing 4 shots with HLL takes 28 seconds of cooldown, it takes another 6.2 seconds for the duration (without quirks)
He needs 34 seconds to get hot. That is to heatefficient if you can't deal enough damage in the meantime.
(And HLL are certainly no DPS weapon)
With quirks it would aproxemately be ~26 seconds cooldown and 5.58 duration.
Thats still ~31.6 seconds.

@MischiefSC

Well, tbh MGs are flat out broken the way they are now.
But the IS-MPL works surprisingly well in scouting, it's maybe the only place they work since range is no problem there.^^

And shooting legs is still inefficient. Just because people don't even try to roll the damage doesn't mean it's good.

Legging is 100% most efficient way to kill in scouting. You can really twist off leg damage except in 1 v 1. When focus firing 4 v 1 (as you always should be) you should be pulling both legs after 1-2 alphas.

Always leg in scouting unless the other guy is way off and hill humping.

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 15 November 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

I discount the first shot's cooldown but count its duration in my calculations, as you don't have to wait a cooldown duration to fire first shot. When calculating effective DPS its always higher than the weapon's raw DPS value, getting closer to that raw value as the combat time gets closer to infinity.



I really have to disagree with IS MPLs being bad, they are extremely accurate, provide a decent alpha strike, and they run just frosty for what you put out. ERML poking works well enough with the Wolfhound, but in more competitive scenarios (including their occasional use in the last WC) the 6 MPL build puts in work. I don't see machine guns to be a serious threat when facing a Wolfhound, the vast majority of their health is in armor and having to have constant face time on them won't work out nicely when their trade duration is under a second, just in terms of how much damage you spread compared to them it would be a losing scenario.

Adding in a ranged guy to the drop of 3 brawlers does mix things up a bit, I can't say I really trust that it outweighs the disadvantage that your brawlers will have being outnumbered *and* out gunned/armored, maybe that ranged guy is able to finish off the remaining enemies if your brawlers managed to leg all of them or at least take out a few so that the ranged guy has enough time to cooldown more than twice.

Wolfhound was a decent poke mech but scouting is run by mediums. MGs and CERMLs will out range it by 50% in light v light.

However scouting is run by mediums. Bringing a light unless it's a Locust smoke dive just gimps your team. IS MPLs range out at 220m and 6 LMGs and 3 cermls just kites it out. Or If you want point blank, 6 HMGs and 2 hsmls + a flamer will double a WLFs DPS and shut it down to boot.

In practice though you want a couple 2xhll, 6lmg Scats and 2x hbk/nva/hnt. Get your first couple of shots in at range and after that it's easy math.

The only times we have lost doing that was because we made very bad positioning choices.

[CMetz]

Lol this thread is funny. The faction with the Huntsman, Mist Lynx, ACH, ACW, are complaining about Bushwackers... lol. That whole 2 spot XL engine thing still trumps it. The dual RAC bushie build isnt terribly strong for scouting, unless your opponent is running in straight lines without turning. DPS is the weakest type of build in scouting, unless done with SRMs, like on a huntsman or acw

[MischiefSC]

CMetz, on 15 November 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

Lol this thread is funny. The faction with the Huntsman, Mist Lynx, ACH, ACW, are complaining about Bushwackers... lol. That whole 2 spot XL engine thing still trumps it. The dual RAC bushie build isnt terribly strong for scouting, unless your opponent is running in straight lines without turning. DPS is the weakest type of build in scouting, unless done with SRMs, like on a huntsman or acw

You haven't played in so long the last time you dropped in a match the Boomcat was OP.

Come baaaaack.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

CMetz, on 15 November 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

Lol this thread is funny. The faction with the Huntsman, Mist Lynx, ACH, ACW, are complaining about Bushwackers... lol. That whole 2 spot XL engine thing still trumps it. The dual RAC bushie build isnt terribly strong for scouting, unless your opponent is running in straight lines without turning. DPS is the weakest type of build in scouting, unless done with SRMs, like on a huntsman or acw

What's somewhat ironic is that I'm the IS player saying IS is currently at the advantage and Mischief is the Clan player saying Clans currently are at an advantage.

Also;
>dual RAC5 Bushwacker

well, at least you know its bad. But yeah the last 8 pages are just about Bushwacker running LFE to avoid XL problems entirely and having 4 ASRM6 and some rockets and generally demolishing the fragile brawlers that the Clans can throw at it and Mischief trying to convince me that through using a ranged mech in the drop you can turn it to your favor, which I concede would give the Clans at least a toss up chance of winning if they hit well and the Bushwacker RL barrages miss and they don't get ambushed and their brawlers don't get decimated instantly by the 2 to 1 fight up close before damaging the Bushwackers enough that the kites can take them out before they are caught.


Maybe we both really think highly of our side and both of us running in groups commonly and cutting down enemy teams with massive win ratios could be skewing our judgement somewhat.

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 15 November 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

What's somewhat ironic is that I'm the IS player saying IS is currently at the advantage and Mischief is the Clan player saying Clans currently are at an advantage.

Also;
>dual RAC5 Bushwacker

well, at least you know its bad. But yeah the last 8 pages are just about Bushwacker running LFE to avoid XL problems entirely and having 4 ASRM6 and some rockets and generally demolishing the fragile brawlers that the Clans can throw at it and Mischief trying to convince me that through using a ranged mech in the drop you can turn it to your favor, which I concede would give the Clans at least a toss up chance of winning if they hit well and the Bushwacker RL barrages miss and they don't get ambushed and their brawlers don't get decimated instantly by the 2 to 1 fight up close before damaging the Bushwackers enough that the kites can take them out before they are caught.


Maybe we both really think highly of our side and both of us running in groups commonly and cutting down enemy teams with massive win ratios could be skewing our judgement somewhat.

Even pugging in scouting I won 9 out of 12 drops. Dropping in 4mans is a lot better than that. The math is pretty straight forward. Unless you really good up you're starting the fight 100 damage ahead. That's an incredible lead, like if you came I to brawl and the other team had shaved 1/2 their leg armor on 2 mechs. You can still lose, but it's only because you did a stupid.

Having pugged with Clans I can say that the majority really seem like they had never even thought about taking something with a bit or range or ganging up effectively.

[Grus]

The only inballance in scouting is the tonnage drop limits... other than that it's strats and the people your shooting at skill level or yours.

12spl nova ftw!

Edit: cellphone autocorrect.

Edited by Grus, 16 November 2017 - 12:13 PM.

[K O Z A K]

I don't normally play FW very much, and never scouting, but I did for the event both solo drops and with 3 of my unit. Just some personal observations:


It seems with all these discussions about balance people miss a very important point. Most players that play FW are not Div A pilots that can pull everything out of their mech that it has to give. In terms of overall population the vast majority of players can barely find a called target, let alone have the skill to hit specific components (soloing the excuses I got for not targeting legs have made me lol repeatedly "I only have torso weapons so I can't shoot legs" was a good one). This is even worse with faster smaller mechs in scouting. So EASE OF USE is what determines the ability of most players to put up scores and damage enemy mechs. This is why the streakcrow had such an overwhelming effect on scouting when it was allowed, it wasn't because it was a particularly good mech (how many skill crows did you see in comp?), with spread damage and super huge hips, but because it was so super easy to use that a player of fairly poor skill could still wreck other players of poor skill with it. This is what's happening now with the bushwacker, because of how long it survives on the field it can dish out a lot of damage in that time (and it does survive way longer than any other mech because your average pilot can't hit legs and will spread most of their damage between arms, sides and ct. Under these conditions the bushwacker becomes a freaking fortress. If you drop 4 good pilots with laser mechs that can leg the bushies/asssassins then they drop almost as fast as anything else, which was funny for the event because it ends up yielding very low dmg/match score. Special mention to 5xstreak6 kintaros which sort of assumed the role of an IS streak crow (I expected trial lurm kintaros and was very surprised, lol).

[Grus]

Hazeclaw, on 24 November 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

I don't normally play FW very much, and never scouting, but I did for the event both solo drops and with 3 of my unit. Just some personal observations:


It seems with all these discussions about balance people miss a very important point. Most players that play FW are not Div A pilots that can pull everything out of their mech that it has to give. In terms of overall population the vast majority of players can barely find a called target, let alone have the skill to hit specific components (soloing the excuses I got for not targeting legs have made me lol repeatedly "I only have torso weapons so I can't shoot legs" was a good one). This is even worse with faster smaller mechs in scouting. So EASE OF USE is what determines the ability of most players to put up scores and damage enemy mechs. This is why the streakcrow had such an overwhelming effect on scouting when it was allowed, it wasn't because it was a particularly good mech (how many skill crows did you see in comp?), with spread damage and super huge hips, but because it was so super easy to use that a player of fairly poor skill could still wreck other players of poor skill with it. This is what's happening now with the bushwacker, because of how long it survives on the field it can dish out a lot of damage in that time (and it does survive way longer than any other mech because your average pilot can't hit legs and will spread most of their damage between arms, sides and ct. Under these conditions the bushwacker becomes a freaking fortress. If you drop 4 good pilots with laser mechs that can leg the bushies/asssassins then they drop almost as fast as anything else, which was funny for the event because it ends up yielding very low dmg/match score. Special mention to 5xstreak6 kintaros which sort of assumed the role of an IS streak crow (I expected trial lurm kintaros and was very surprised, lol).

saw a few of those streak boats in scouting, but their IS so I guess they get a pass right? Because when clan does it, it's blasphemous...

[LordFatman]

stormcrow should be aloud back in

Edited by LordFatman, 24 November 2017 - 06:08 PM.

[Damnedtroll]

Please pug clan pilot, stop bringing lrm and atm in scouting and it will be a lot better for you. You can do something with that in polar but elsewere, it's so easy to go in the minimal range and blow you off that's not even fun.

It's like someone bringing a Griffin in scouting with a dual std ppc build... i'm sure that nobody are crazy enough to do that, so don't bring lrm and atm for brawling !

Edited by Damnedtroll, 24 November 2017 - 06:52 PM.

[K O Z A K]

Damnedtroll, on 24 November 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

Please pug clan pilot, stop bringing lrm and atm in scouting and it will be a lot better for you. You can do something with that in polar but elsewere, it's so easy to go in the minimal range and blow you off that's it's not even fun.

It's like someone bringing a Griffin in scouting with a dual std ppc build... i'm sure that nobody are crazy enough to do that, so don't bring lrm and atm for brawling !

I was amazed at the amount of ppl that argued with me for the use of atms in scouting. PEEPS!!! The IS guys know about the range barriers, the jig is up!!!

[Pariah Devalis]

You have two primary choices as a Clan player in scouting. Either all of you load up on fast, well ranged mechs like IFR with Medium Pulse lasers that can dance at longer range and whittle the enemy legs away, or you all go in with brawlers. But if you are doing one thing, you all need to be on the same page. If one of you is a long range shoot and scoot mech, you basically just forced your three brawlers to fight a 4v3. If one of you is a brawler, that player either dies horribly or spends the majority of the game not contributing to the fight at all.

In any case, C-LRM should not be taken. ATM can be forced to work on Polar Highlands and on some parts of Grim Plexus and Caustic Valley, but put your own mech in severe risk of being trapped in minimum range and rendered useless. SSRM are superior to ATM virtually always. However, Artemis SRM is superior to the other missile options. If your aim is really so terrible as to miss the entire lower half of a medium mech at close range, take SSRM - and at the very least it poses a threat to Assassins. Novas do the smaller laser boating better than most other things, but if you can't aim well enough to hold that beam on a leg long enough to effectively place that damage, consider other loadouts. MPLas can also work, but either you take a Huntsman with 6 and stick near your brawlers, or you take an Ice Ferret and run around with the rest of your team as part of a mid range keepaway strat that your entire team is taking part of.