221 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

Nope. Not even touching this one. Echo echo echo echo....
Scouting? How dat work?

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

Oh my god guys just quit the game, if it's really that unfair. Like really... This is such a bizarre group.

Better yet, play those ultra hardcore mechs in scouting. Good luck on that.

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

Must be that OP C-ERML with a 6+ second total turnaround. Or those C-peeps that absolutely require a [Redacted] ton of dhs to fire more than three times without cooking thyself.

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Oh wait, so it must be the Comp scene because it's not scouting. And it's already been settled that QP tech disparity isn't really an issue; part because of mix tech teams, and part because it's not really an issue....

But but it's the mercs or big units in.... 3...2...1

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

The writing is on the wall. The rest honestly comes down to an individual's skill level and that opinion formed by that skill.
When you can pour OP weapon, say 2 C-LPL into a cored mech and it doesn't even change shade, it must be OP.

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

And a lot... a lot has changed since then. One could even say that trainwreck was in a large part due to the very large merc units...
round and round the wheels go round.

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

Because you know comp play is the entire game.

wait for it....

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

What gets buffed?

Echo echo echo echo.....

Do you need help with that chip on your shoulder, or... ?

[Gas Guzzler]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

Because you know comp play is the entire game.

wait for it....

Let me break this down for you. Scouting is weird because it only contains Lights and Mediums. You can't say that because scouting matches are balanced/leaning one way that that is indicating anything about overall tech balance.

Scouting is also part of Faction Play, where matchmaking is non-existent, and population balance is also a huge factor, so its difficult to draw conclusions from FP as a whole, let alone scouting.

That leaves comp and quick play. The competitive queue is where you get teams that are of similar skill level picking the absolute best mechs for certain maps, to fulfill certain roles on the battlefield. Quick play has some semblance of a matchmaker that is limited by PSR's accuracy, but players can take whatever they want, and it includes mechs from both factions and all weight classes.

You are correct in that the comp playerbase is small, but that playerbase would also be the more competent group of players. Obvious trends like selecting 90+% Clan when it comes to mech choice, is absolutely indicative of a balance problem. Its also the only data we have access too other than our own personal stats. If it was 60/40, I would be singing a different tune, but 90% is incredibly biased.

I know that for quick play, if I sort out the top 20 mechs in terms of average damage, 6 of them are IS, and only one of the top 5 is IS, and it just got a durability nerf and its loadout got ghost heat added to it.

If I sort out the top 20 mechs in terms of KDR, 6 of them are IS.
If I sort out the top 20 mechs in terms of WLR, 8 of them are IS.

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

What gets buffed?

Echo echo echo echo.....

I would like some of my IS assaults to have the same capability of man-handling solo queue matches as certain Clan assaults do, if that isn't too much to ask.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 05 November 2017 - 02:15 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Cathy, on 05 November 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

no the pvp wasn't fun it was more broken than MWO is People just look back at the old titles through rose tinted glasses because they want it to be, because they don't want to admit they've supported a series of broken pvp titles.

It was indeed broken but still fun. And I believe no one played MW4 pvp because how good it was. We rather played it because there were mechs and it worked sufficiently well and there were no other battletech games.

[Kin3ticX]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 November 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

Let me break this down for you. Scouting is weird because it only contains Lights and Mediums. You can't say that because scouting matches are balanced/leaning one way that that is indicating anything about overall tech balance.

Scouting is also part of Faction Play, where matchmaking is non-existent, and population balance is also a huge factor, so its difficult to draw conclusions from FP as a whole, let alone scouting.

That leaves comp and quick play. The competitive queue is where you get teams that are of similar skill level picking the absolute best mechs for certain maps, to fulfill certain roles on the battlefield. Quick play has some semblance of a matchmaker that is limited by PSR's accuracy, but players can take whatever they want, and it includes mechs from both factions and all weight classes.

You are correct in that the comp playerbase is small, but that playerbase would also be the more competent group of players. Obvious trends like selecting 90+% Clan when it comes to mech choice, is absolutely indicative of a balance problem. Its also the only data we have access too other than our own personal stats. If it was 60/40, I would be singing a different tune, but 90% is incredibly biased.

I know that for quick play, if I sort out the top 20 mechs in terms of average damage, 6 of them are IS, and only one of the top 5 is IS, and it just got a durability nerf and its loadout got ghost heat added to it.

If I sort out the top 20 mechs in terms of KDR, 6 of them are IS.
If I sort out the top 20 mechs in terms of WLR, 8 of them are IS.



I would like some of my IS assaults to have the same capability of man-handling solo queue matches as certain Clan assaults do, if that isn't too much to ask.

Yeah but your personal stats are anecdotal

[Kin3ticX]

My balance theory from the onset of clan launch would have been as follows

1. Gameplay before Lore.

2. IS balanced against Clams as bulky / over-engineered rather than old / worse. This means a 10 ton IS LRM-20 would be vastly better than a 5 ton Clan LRM-20. etc etc.

3. You cannot quirk a hardpoint when a hardpoint is needed.

4. ?????????

5. Profit

[Jackal Noble]

[Jackal Noble]

Jay Leon Hart, on 05 November 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

Do you need help with that chip on your shoulder, or... ?

Ya it's called not being a yes man.

[Jun Watarase]

Jay Leon Hart, on 05 November 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

So, in your eyes, the only good OmniMechs are;

Nova, Linebacker & Timber Wolf?

That's certainly an interesting PoV...

I left out some, thanks for reminding me.

I stated that the EBJ/Hellbringer was good if used with one particular build. The problem is, they are only good with that particular build, which is mid-long ranged laser vomit. Theres no versatility, which is a balance issue (but good luck convincing PGI of that). IS mechs in comparison have no locked equipment, so you can make a lot of builds work. The warhammer is really versatile and tanky for example. You can brawl with it, you have high torso mounted hardpoints, you have variants with decent amount of all hardpoints.

Whereas something like the HBR-F is just too badly gimped from the start because nothing you can do can increase the pod space to use 2x ballistics. The entire HBR chassis as a whole is just geared towards laser vomit due to having ample space for DHS, unfortunately this means putting anything other than lasers on it is a horrible idea. Unfortunately the quirks that HBRs have only encourage laser vomit, because they arent enough to make up for the disadvantages of NOT running laser vomit.

But in case you are wondering :

Nova : low slung weapon arms, no pod space, horribly bad hitboxes, huge arms where most of the weapons are
Linebacker : No pod space, huge torsos. The side torsos are just massive targets...I love popping them in my cataphract.
Timberwolf : EBJ does pretty much every build better for 10 tons less.

When people say that clan mechs are superior, they always mean for mid-long ranged laser vomit, but they usaully fail to mention that limitation. And they never mean the ones with gimped pod space or engines, which actually make up a sizable portion of the list.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 05 November 2017 - 03:08 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

Ya it's called not being a yes man.

Right... so who do you think is agreeing with everything that is said? I mean, that would be some idiocy, agreeing with all sides of an argument simultaneously.

[Vonbach]

Heavy lasers. Who on earth thought these OP insta-win buttons were a good idea?

[Jun Watarase]

Vonbach, on 05 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Heavy lasers. Who on earth thought these OP insta-win buttons were a good idea?

Heavy lasers are easily countered by torso twisting to spread damage and then beating the helpless clan mech senseless while it desperately waits for them to cycle.

Literally the only way you can possibly have issues with them is if you face tank them so all the damage goes to one location and let the clan mech cool down behind a rock so he can alpha you several more times.

[Brain Cancer]

Vonbach, on 05 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Heavy lasers. Who on earth thought these OP insta-win buttons were a good idea?

You clearly haven't been there watching your HLL cooldown bar dribble away while someone with faster guns pounds you a new piehole. And they slowed up the ERMLs that would normally back them up, too.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

I stated that the EBJ/Hellbringer was good if used with one particular build. The problem is, they are only good with that particular build, which is mid-long ranged laser vomit. Theres no versatility, which is a balance issue (but good luck convincing PGI of that). IS mechs in comparison have no locked equipment, so you can make a lot of builds work. The warhammer is really versatile and tanky for example. You can brawl with it, you have high torso mounted hardpoints, you have variants with decent amount of all hardpoints.

Whereas something like the HBR-F is just too badly gimped from the start because nothing you can do can increase the pod space to use 2x ballistics. The entire HBR chassis as a whole is just geared towards laser vomit due to having ample space for DHS, unfortunately this means putting anything other than lasers on it is a horrible idea. Unfortunately the quirks that HBRs have only encourage laser vomit, because they arent enough to make up for the disadvantages of NOT running laser vomit.

When people say that clan mechs are superior, they always mean for mid-long ranged laser vomit, but they usaully fail to mention that limitation. And they never mean the ones with gimped pod space or engines, which actually make up a sizable portion of the list.

Right, but for the Warhammer, each chassis is similarly build-locked.

WHM-6D for laser vomit - beaten by the HBR & EBJ (arguably by the HBK-IIC-A, HMN, SCR, NCT, SMN & TBR as well)
WHM-6R for Ballistics + energy - beaten by the EBJ
Black Widow for dakka - Clan has to go up to the NTG for enough space, tonnage & hardpoints to beat this

When I see people say Clan 'mechs are superior, I find they mean the tech is superior, mostly the non-weapon tech. IIC versus original IS is an easy, albeit incredibly biased, example.

[Jackal Noble]

Jay Leon Hart, on 05 November 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

Right... so who do you think is agreeing with everything that is said? I mean, that would be some idiocy, agreeing with all sides of an argument simultaneously.

I wasn't saying that either. Merely that comp play is a vacuum of sorts unto itself, as is illustrated in the other elements of the game. How many that are on here that vomit on the forum actually play in comp, or do scouting, or play faction, hell even actually play the game?! I say that because I've seen so many opinionated forumites that don't even play, then go on to say " I don't even play the game until PIG fixes teh balance!" which is outright funny.

Here's something to chew on, you can have a lower damage weapon, have lower overall damage on a build but be more effective at actually killing vs spraying and streaming and lightsabering. How does that work?

Vonbach, on 05 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Heavy lasers. Who on earth thought these OP insta-win buttons were a good idea?

Let me ask you a question... are you familiar with the concept of cover? or rolling armor? an 18 damage weapon with crazy heat and a burn-time of eternity.

that 199 alpha. annd....
https://youtu.be/-_n1zf2Qpxg

[Jay Leon Hart]

Vonbach, on 05 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Heavy lasers. Who on earth thought these OP insta-win buttons were a good idea?

To think they were decried as worthless before they tech update

[Jackal Noble]

Ebon is still surprisingly fragile even with a Skill tree armor node using up 29 out 33 or 88%.
That's not to say it's my babe, because it is and has always been.

Edited by JackalBeast, 05 November 2017 - 03:26 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 03:13 PM, said:

Heavy lasers are easily countered by torso twisting to spread damage and then beating the helpless clan mech senseless while it desperately waits for them to cycle.

Literally the only way you can possibly have issues with them is if you face tank them so all the damage goes to one location and let the clan mech cool down behind a rock so he can alpha you several more times.

Brain Cancer, on 05 November 2017 - 03:18 PM, said:

You clearly haven't been there watching your HLL cooldown bar dribble away while someone with faster guns pounds you a new piehole. And they slowed up the ERMLs that would normally back them up, too.

I don't know, this Season I have only been using HLLs & ERMLs outside of Scouting (with the exception of the extra LMGs on my Nova). My Avg MS, K/D & W/L have never been so high (except, oddly, for my first matches in the Uziel ).

The cooldown nerf on Mediums was felt on cooler 'mechs, but matched with HLLs it doesn't matter anyway. Torso twisting is great, if you can do it in time, but that extra 0.45s vs an IS (ER)LL isn't all that bad now targets twist slower, plus it's only .20s longer then the ERMLs. I still have trouble vs Lights, but most of my Assault 'mechs do these days

[Jay Leon Hart]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

Here's something to chew on, you can have a lower damage weapon, have lower overall damage on a build but be more effective at actually killing vs spraying and streaming and lightsabering. How does that work?

That works by being able to move faster than your opponent. Ton-for-ton, unless you're talking the slow OmniMechs, IS 'mechs aren't more maneuverable than Clan ones outside of Light 'mechs.

I honestly think Light 'mechs are the best balanced between the tech bases, mostly because IS has so many more fast options.

Can Clan get the Hellion already? Please?

[Gas Guzzler]

Jun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 03:13 PM, said:

Heavy lasers are easily countered by torso twisting to spread damage and then beating the helpless clan mech senseless while it desperately waits for them to cycle.

Sounds like the "helpless" Clan mech made a positioning error and tried to brawl with Heavy lasers.

Normally when I'm waiting for HLL cooldown I'm over 400 m away and nearby cover.

[Jun Watarase]

Jay Leon Hart, on 05 November 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

Right, but for the Warhammer, each chassis is similarly build-locked.

WHM-6D for laser vomit - beaten by the HBR & EBJ (arguably by the HBK-IIC-A, HMN, SCR, NCT, SMN & TBR as well)
WHM-6R for Ballistics + energy - beaten by the EBJ
Black Widow for dakka - Clan has to go up to the NTG for enough space, tonnage & hardpoints to beat this

When I see people say Clan 'mechs are superior, I find they mean the tech is superior, mostly the non-weapon tech. IIC versus original IS is an easy, albeit incredibly biased, example.

The thing is regardless of which build the warhammer goes with, the warhammer easily wins if it can negate the range advantage and use the shield arms to tank damage. If you are trading shots at mid-long range, the EBJ wins because it can minimize its weaknesses by reversing behind a rock quickly. If the warhammer is up close, the warhammer can easily take out a side torso or simply aim for the nose and hit the CT from the side, which the EBJ cannot do because of shield arms.

But when you have a 12 man firing line on your typical long range map, getting close requires you to push with push oriented builds. Most people end up trying to trade with clan mechs at mid-long range because its the easiest option (no co-ordination needed, its the default behaviour of any team, just look at QP) and then it comes down to whether the IS players are skilled enough to beat the clan mechs at their optimal range.

Case in point, I once ended up killing a mauler and two heavies at close range with a EBJ-A (not even running laser vomit). They tried to flank me, but after i alphaed the mauler once, they stopped and hid around the corner, less than 200m away. I had plenty of time to cool down after every alpha and wait for my UAC to unjam and since they were hiding, only one mech could shoot me whenever i peeked around the corner. All they had to was go around the corner at the same time and kill me before i could get the second alpha off.