221 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Jay Leon Hart, on 06 November 2017 - 02:01 AM, said:

The LL version fares better than the LPL one fighting STs (yellow structure on 2nd HBR ST before WHM dies) and the ML fares better than the ERML one if you drop the engagement range to 270m (red structure on 2nd HBR ST before WHM dies). [/Edit2]

I have been using 3xLL+6ML WHM-6D in FP for a month. I can tell you that while it overall performs good, its range is pathetic compared to las-vomit Hellbringer. IS ML is in that weird place between brawl range and mid-range; consequently it is not great at both. And 57 damage vs. 78 damage is already a foregone conclusion in the peekaboo meta.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 November 2017 - 02:19 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

El Bandito, on 06 November 2017 - 02:10 AM, said:

I have been using 3xLL+6ML WHM-6D in FP for a month. I can tell you that while it overall performs good, its range is pathetic compared to las-vomit Hellbringer.

I've been running my WHM-6D with 3LL, 4ERML for a while (previously 3LPL) & my laser HBR runs 2HLL, 4ERML. Under gunned for some, but I cook myself less than the 6 ERML versions of both I leave 2HLL, 6 ERML for my Assaults.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Clan Tech was a mistake since the 80's on the tabletop, and has been a mistake in EVERY iteration of Mechwarrior.

It's literally that simple, Clan Tech, is flat out, BETTER, by ton, by slot count, than IS tech. Far and away, Combine the weight savings, less crits taken by Endo/Fero, 2 crit side torso XL's, ect. And it's just a recipe for disaster.

You want to see some fun, engaging matches, watch Clan vs Clan, or IS vs IS matches, because the technology matches, the mechs function in the same range brackets and damage thresholds as one another, given their limits. It's in an herently better balanced game when you're running same faction vs same faction.

This entire mixed pool we've been playing in since 2014, has wrecked the balance. Sure there were other issues when all we had was IS mechs, BUT the balance was in a much, much better place.

at the end of the day though, I guess none of this really matters... PGI has no idea where they want Mechwarrior Online to end up, outside of "muh e-sports" which this will never become a solid e-sport given the stifling nature of the game in general... HAD the game been able to progress naturally to one, maybe... but it was never given that chance.

[InspectorG]

JC Daxion, on 05 November 2017 - 05:43 AM, said:

I've been giving this lots of thought as of late and IMO it's not the Clan vrs IS XL engines or the heat sinks that cause most of the issues..

It's Clan alpha's due to massive hard point counts, aka Alpha warrior online. (IMO ED needs to make a come back which i've been working on a post about but not ready yet but i digress)


I think the major cause or the clan and IS balance are more simple than equipment, I really think it's the whole OMNI mech system that is what's leading the charge.

One thing i've noticed about the Meta/Top mechs, and why they are typically clan mechs for the most part is because of the omni system. I think back about all the top mechs over time and how often the meta swapped, yet many of those mechs just swap to the new meta, by swapping out omni pods. missiles the new meta, well swap some pods, Ballistics are in favor, swap pods, energy is back, well boat up lasers.. and the cycle repeats.

the IS just have less options over all when it comes to this, and you need to buy a new mech, and kit it out, but often have sub par options in comparison. clans just swap around parts.


So basically access to more hard points and the ability to swap them when the meta changes leads to much of the balance issues. Yes i realize there are no fixes in this thread, but i think identifying the real problem is a good start.

Thoughts?

Sorta.

Clan XL's SIZE + Smaller DHS + Smaller equips +7 slot Endo(shows in Omnis without Endo that arent Assaults) allow more boating.
Also the lazors have generally over the iterations, done more damage.

A lot of small advantages add up big over time/space on a build.

Omni PODS just let players juke hardpoints for boating AND better hardpoint location in some cases(Summoner E nipples).

[MechaBattler]

We're never going to see the end of Alphawarrior online. You get lambasted if you suggest that hitting your alpha every time is not how the game should be. Because if it's in the lore, then it's wrong, and you're just a lore nerd.

It'd be nice if we could at least find a way to tone the alpha size down. Maybe just adjust the heat system a tad to make it harder on high alphas.

[Kin3ticX]

El Bandito, on 06 November 2017 - 02:10 AM, said:

I have been using 3xLL+6ML WHM-6D in FP for a month. I can tell you that while it overall performs good, its range is pathetic compared to las-vomit Hellbringer. IS ML is in that weird place between brawl range and mid-range; consequently it is not great at both. And 57 damage vs. 78 damage is already a foregone conclusion in the peekaboo meta.

While I would never claim the WHM-6D is a bad mech, it aint no hellbringer. I want it to do better but it just doesnt. There is def something to be said for high mounts, amazing firepower, and ECM. PGI was crazy to add hardpoints to the HBR. Now expect a massive crippling mobility nerf at some point.
HELLBRINGER HBR-F(L) 630 453 175 2.59 1,106 222 4.98 504,650 1,103,115 3 days 03:05:49
WARHAMMER WHM-6D 116 75 41 1.83 166 56 2.96 68,513 216,236 11:45:56

[Jackal Noble]

MischiefSC, on 05 November 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

I would say test it vs Mcgral in a 1 v 1 but to be blunt he knows the game so much better than you he could beat you with a box of stale Fruit Rollups.

Care to put a wager on that? I'll be your huckleberry.

[Kodyn]

While I started out as an IS player, I eventually drifted into Clan mechs and now have a hard time going back. I still have a few IS chassis that I have fondness for, but I can never get them to perform as well as Clan. Before they got nerfed, the TBR was above and beyond my best mech, nothing else I had could touch it, clan or IS. Post mobility nerf, it's my HBR. I own a RGH and WHM, both generally kitted out in laser vomit, but while they can get decent numbers, once again can't touch the HBR. The RGH is my toughest mech, can survive a lot, but the damage and therefore my match earnings are always considerably lower than when I take the HBR.

The way I view it, IS has the interesting, fun mechs, Clan has the good mechs. If I want to grind out CBills and progress, I use clan, if I just want to have some fun, though probably lose- IS mechs. As you can imagine I don't get to spend much time in IS anymore, because I tend to always want CBills, and I don't much enjoy under-performing. I do have plans to pick up a Cyclops or two in the near future, just to try some interesting mixed loadouts, and mainly because I'm in love with the cockpit. Do I expect I'll be playing it much once it's leveled and getting half the dmg per match of a clan heavy? No, not at all, but that's MWO.

If they ever fully balanced IS/Clan tech in MWO then they'd have to drop clan tech prices to be comparable to IS, which they'll never do. Right now you can play IS on the relatively cheap, or you can spend more initially, with fewer upgrades needed and get a superior clan mech. I can't imagine them ever balancing fully however, it'd be a totally different game. There's too many clan advantages to even out. When you factor in lower weight/slot tech, especially DHS, with higher pinpoint alphas, then combine all that with Clan XLs, decent hardpoints in many cases, and Omnis for a greater range of choice, you'd have to take away everything that makes clan clan, or add it all to IS in order to balance the two. The only choice short of that is to make up for IS deficiencies with stuff like quirks, and we know how that all turned out.

I honestly think we have what we have because it's the best that can be done by this team of devs, working within the lore of this universe. I think expecting it to get better after this many years is a waste of energy on the players' part.

[naterist]

Bring 2 hardpoint types back from mw4, and make 1 new one.

Bring back Direct fire hardpoints, and ammunition based hardpoints.
Create a small weapons category of hardpoint.

[MischiefSC]

JackalBeast, on 06 November 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

Care to put a wager on that? I'll be your huckleberry.

Would I bet that Mcgral would beat you in a duel, you in a WHR and him in a HBR?

Are you serious?

Not that I'm a huge fan of lets you and him fight but yeah. I'd put a mechpack on that. Not my duel to make.

That he could beat you with a box of fruit rollups? Again, I can't make challenges on behalf of someone else but if he's comfortable with slapping someone around with fruit-based snack foods I'd still bet on that.

[Jackal Noble]

Logged in just to like that.
No, not that build. That was just an apparently feeble attempt to contend with what was being presented.
Mcgral I'll send you a friend request, if you're not to busy doing weird things with fruit roll ups it would be fun to challenge ya.

And that DPS/T thing? It was late last night and I misread it, for whatever reason thought it was damage per tick.

Edited by JackalBeast, 06 November 2017 - 12:50 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 06 November 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

We're never going to see the end of Alphawarrior online. You get lambasted if you suggest that hitting your alpha every time is not how the game should be. Because if it's in the lore, then it's wrong, and you're just a lore nerd.

I don't alpha every time, but I do when I can do so without shutting down, because it doesn't make tactical sense not to.

The whole lore thing is because the only "reason" alphas are so terrible is always "because mah lore" which isn't a good reason.

[MechaBattler]

What's the good reason for high alphas? Neither is wrong. But with ever increasing power creep, it makes me want to see the game pull back from alphawarrior online.

Edited by MechaBattler, 06 November 2017 - 01:22 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 November 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

I don't alpha every time, but I do when I can do so without shutting down, because it doesn't make tactical sense not to.

The whole lore thing is because the only "reason" alphas are so terrible is always "because mah lore" which isn't a good reason.

[davoodoo]

MechaBattler, on 06 November 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

What's the good reason for high alphas?

Lets see, cause its optimal and logical way to play the game, it follows basic tactical principles and is intuitive to do.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 06 November 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

What's the good reason for high alphas? Neither is wrong. But with ever increasing power creep, it makes me want to see the game pull back from alphawarrior online.

Because more than one way to play is good? Why bring lasers if I have to face stare to use them? I would be better off with UAC2s. Dynamic gameplay is more interesting than everyone just trying to out DPS everybody else.

I mean, we had lower alphas competing with the 70-80 damage alphas, but the player base got them nerfed because "OMGPPFLDWTFBBQ", so now everyone has the big alpha strikes, or the optimized DPS builds.

[MechaBattler]

Well that's what I'm arguing. That high alphas are just plain better. I think they need to adjust the heat system so they're less optimal. To allow for more variety. We're obviously not getting rid of alphwarrior online. But we could at least reign it in a little bit.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 06 November 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

That high alphas are just plain better.

High alphas vs continuous DPS builds? Depends on the situation, but yes, right now overall high alphas are better more often than not, except when they aren't.

In fact, on the IS side of the fence, DPS builds ARE better than alpha builds at least in the assault class. Like how the 6UAC2 Mauler is probably one of the best IS assaults in the game. 5UAC5 Annihilator also seems to consistently put up huge numbers for me.

[davoodoo]

MechaBattler, on 06 November 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

Well that's what I'm arguing. That high alphas are just plain better. I think they need to adjust the heat system so they're less optimal. To allow for more variety. We're obviously not getting rid of alphwarrior online. But we could at least reign it in a little bit.

If you make most prevalent playstyle less optimal, you arent making other ones more interesting, you just piss off players who want to play mechwarrior...

Only thing that volleyfire is good for is dramatic suspense, im sure thats gonna work in lobby based online shooter.

Edited by davoodoo, 06 November 2017 - 02:46 PM.

[MechaBattler]

It's as you say GasGuzzler. There's only High Alpha or Optimized DPS builds. Be nice to see them throw other builds a bone.

davoodoo, that's how balancing something works. Conversely they could buff everything else. Either way people are going to be upset because their favorite build isn't as effective as it once was. Which is often a case of it no longer being the best.