140 replies to this topic

[Dee Eight]

when beaten/out damage outputted by them. Ignoring the fact you cannot fire them without a weapon lock... and that THAT requires holding your crosshairs on the target for about 2 seconds... and you have to keep holding the crosshairs on target to keep firing them.... there's the mental math that goes into using them. Are you in range ? Will the missiles have the range to chase down the target ? Will they have the speed to do that before they run out of range ? Will anything get in the way during their flight (like a friendly) ? What if the enemy turns...are they going to track into a building ? How's PGI's hit registration lately ? Will it result in better if chain or group fired as a result ?

Yeah... no skill required at all. And I don't boat streaks on anything.

[InvictusLee]

People complain because they insta kill flying lights mid air.
I actually hate how they tweaked the locking system. Its hard enough to use streaks, even on slower targets such as medium mechs. Now its all but impossible to keep locks even on a slow *** hunchback.

[Dee Eight]

November11th, on 05 November 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

People complain because they insta kill flying lights mid air.
I actually hate how they tweaked the locking system. Its hard enough to use streaks, even on slower targets such as medium mechs. Now its all but impossible to keep locks even on a slow *** hunchback.

Really? I somehow manage to hold my crosshairs on commandoes, lynx, cheetahs, and locusts just fine. I just circle dueled a cicada in a huntsman and he was definitely the quicker and more agile, and he couldn't get out of my lock with a pair of streak 4s.

[LordNothing]

thing i dont like about streaks is they pretty much lock you into a light interceptor role. on larger mechs any time you fire you are rolling the dice as to whether or not they hit the desired location. any direct fire weapon allows me to make my own odds. not that they dont have other niches, like light repellent for your assault mech.

[Gas Guzzler]

They require significantly less skill than non-lock on weapons. I don't care if you have to hold reticle in the vicinity of the target for 2 seconds. That's not hard.

[Pariah Devalis]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 November 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

They require significantly less skill than non-lock on weapons. I don't care if you have to hold reticle in the vicinity of the target for 2 seconds. That's not hard.

Bingo.

It isn't hard to wave the reticule around a large box. Lock on time is significantly lower than 2 seconds with TAG and Artemis, as well. Even though Artemis isn't supposed to improve things. The problem with SSRM isn't their damage output, but is tied directly to their inability to be focused to specific parts. I've lost count of how many times a fight could have swung the other way around had the SSRM carrier been able to direct all or most of the missiles towards a specific open leg or torso.

However you just don't have that sort of control. That results in less than ideal damage placement. Not a big issue against soft targets like lights or light mediums, but the higher the tonnage goes, the less useful SSRM become precisely because of that inefficiency of damage application. By the time you get to the 50-55 ton point, you're way better off nailing people with tight ASRM clusters as opposed to smearing damage like suntan lotion all over their skin.

I will say this, however: Even though ASRM might outperform SSRM with pilots who have the ability to aim, it provides a reliable source of damage for pilots who can't aim for jack. It lets them be useful. However, I have two minds regarding this. On one, yes they can help in the damage dealing department, but by sticking to SSRM they never engage themselves in any meaningful way to actually improve their ability to aim. They use SSRM because they get results, get comfortable with those results, and as a result do not improve as players because they are OK with simply being OK. Their aim will never improve. Their damage efficiency will never improve.

That, to me, is the most egregious thing about SSRM. Not the weapon itself, but what it means for those who insist on using it.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 November 2017 - 10:22 AM.

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 November 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

They require significantly less skill than non-lock on weapons. I don't care if you have to hold reticle in the vicinity of the target for 2 seconds. That's not hard.

Gas, Skill is Lostech™. I mean, we have an auto-aim request thread. That's how you know this is true.

[James Argent]

Holding a target lock is harder than passing the crosshairs over the target once and clicking the mouse whenever that happens to occur. 'If crosshairs = mech, then click' requires reflexes but not constant and changing predictive analysis.

Then try it with counter-ecm damage...it's significantly longer than two seconds, let alone 'instant, whenever' where you have to hold a direct-fire TAG on a moving target to achieve a lock.

Not to mention ignorant dead spectators who try to tell you that TAG doesn't interact with Streaks 'because they already all hit.' Probably the same morons who couldn't get a TAG kill to save their lives during that one event.

[Y E O N N E]

James Argent, on 05 November 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Holding a target lock is harder than passing the crosshairs over the target once and clicking the mouse whenever that happens to occur. 'If crosshairs = mech, then click' requires reflexes but not constant and changing predictive analysis.

Then try it with counter-ecm damage...it's significantly longer than two seconds, let alone 'instant, whenever' where you have to hold a direct-fire TAG on a moving target to achieve a lock.

Not to mention ignorant dead spectators who try to tell you that TAG doesn't interact with Streaks 'because they already all hit.' Probably the same morons who couldn't get a TAG kill to save their lives during that one event.

So I guess me having to follow the specific component I want to hit with that laser as the 'Mech runs, jumps, and turns is way more difficult than keeping a crosshair on the general target long enough to release some fire-and-forget missiles

[Khobai]

Quote

They require significantly less skill than non-lock on weapons. I don't care if you have to hold reticle in the vicinity of the target for 2 seconds. That's not hard.

Except unless youre only fighting lights, winning with streaks is harder than winning with non-lock on weapons. So streaks vs non-lights requires more skill to win with than direct fire weapons.

If you have to take down an assault mech with streaks thats going to require far more skill than taking down an assault mech with a PPFLD or DPS loadout. Because you have to be able to stay alive longer to kill the assault with streaks since the streaks are hitting random locations. Conversely direct fire weapons will kill the assault much faster because you can aim at specific locations, thus requiring less skill. Taking down an assault with four UACs is a hell of a lot easier and less skillful than taking down an assault with streaks for example. Streaks vs lights is pretty skillless though, because streaks tear them apart no matter where they hit, the RNG nature of streaks doesnt matter as much. I think the problem with streaks vs lights is that BAP is too strong at countering ECM.

With the exception of maybe streaks vs light mechs, laser vomit pretty much requires the least skill of anything in the game. Anyone can put their reticle on an enemy mech and press the mouse button and do 70 damage. You dont even have to compensate your aim for travel time, its all hitscan. Lasers are pretty much as easy mode as it gets.

Edited by Khobai, 05 November 2017 - 11:09 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Khobai, on 05 November 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Except unless youre only fighting lights, winning with streaks is harder than winning with non-lock on weapons. So streaks vs non-lights requires more skill to win with than direct fire weapons.

If you have to take down an assault mech with streaks thats going to require far more skill than taking down an assault mech with a PPFLD loadout. Because you have to be able to stay alive longer to kill the assault with streaks since the streaks are hitting random locations. Conversely direct fire weapons will kill the assault much faster because you can aim at specific locations, thus requiring less skill.

Laser vomit pretty much requires the least skill of anything in the game.

RNG based hitting denies the possibility for aimed kill shots. In this case, the skill being displayed in taking a larger mech down is not in your ability to aim, but in your ability to survive longer than your enemy. Whereas aimed shots, moreso with ASRM than hitscan lasers, require you to not only out survive your enemy, but also direct firepower to specific locations on a moving object who is also trying to kill you. Laser based builds trade predictive leading for higher heat management skills, though I wouldn't call that harder than trying to predict where something is going to hit on a squirrely target.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 November 2017 - 11:02 AM.

[InfinityBall]

Khobai, on 05 November 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Except unless youre only fighting lights, winning with streaks is harder than winning with non-lock on weapons. So streaks vs non-lights requires more skill to win with than direct fire weapons.

If you have to take down an assault mech with streaks thats going to require far more skill than taking down an assault mech with a PPFLD or DPS loadout. Because you have to be able to stay alive longer to kill the assault with streaks since the streaks are hitting random locations. Conversely direct fire weapons will kill the assault much faster because you can aim at specific locations, thus requiring less skill. Taking down an assault with four UACs is a hell of a lot easier and less skillful than taking down an assault with streaks for example. Streaks vs lights is pretty skillless though, because streaks tear them apart no matter where they hit, the RNG nature of streaks doesnt matter as much.

With the exception of maybe streaks vs light mechs, laser vomit pretty much requires the least skill of anything in the game. Anyone can put their reticle on an enemy mech and press the mouse button and do 70 damage. You dont even have to compensate your aim for travel time, its all hitscan. Lasers are pretty much as easy mode as it gets.

While it's true that it's harder to take an assault down with streaks, that's not because it's harder to use streaks. It's because streaks aren't as good against assaults, so you have to be better at using the rest of your abilities to survive.

[Khobai]

Quote

While it's true that it's harder to take an assault down with streaks, that's not because it's harder to use streaks. It's because streaks aren't as good against assaults, so you have to be better at using the rest of your abilities to survive.

but it still requires more skill than if you werent using streaks.

making the blanket statement that streaks require no skill is completely wrong and out of context

streaks pretty much require no skill to kill light mechs. but against assaults you need to be more skilled to win with streaks than other weapons.

the whole problem with streaks is that binary nature. theyre too good vs lights. and pretty horrible against everything else.

Edited by Khobai, 05 November 2017 - 11:13 AM.

[Scout Derek]

Khobai, on 05 November 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

but it still requires more skill than if you werent using streaks.

Yep.

It's Either a choice between leading a target and at times not hitting all your missiles, or just pointing at the target, and then clicking, all your missiles heat, albeit not where you want it to be.

Streaks are basically auto aim, minus conversion at longer ranges.

[Pariah Devalis]

Scout Derek, on 05 November 2017 - 11:12 AM, said:

Yep.

It's Either a choice between leading a target and at times not hitting all your missiles, or just pointing at the target, and then clicking, all your missiles heat, albeit not where you want it to be.

Streaks are basically auto aim, minus conversion at longer ranges.

I am a huge fan of sarcasm. I am sure you knew that already.

[FupDup]

You have no idea how long I've been asking for SSRMs to be reworked into an aim-based weapon. It would make them soooo much stronger and more reliable against big targets while letting lights have a bit of an easier time since they're usually harder to aim at.

But nah, we gotta keep the autoaim mechanic for all lock-on missiles so that they stay sub-par forever.

[Jun Watarase]

When people talk about skill, they usually mean FPS twitch skills. No surprise that they dont like anything that doesnt utilize that.

What I find ironic is that they almost all use laser vomit, which is literally the easiest thing in the game. Point, click, massive damage, reverse behind a rock. I tried it a few times but it was just so boring that I may as well not play. Ive actually seen a few people who usually run 3x laser vomit in FP try non-laser vomit builds, but they -always- switch back to laser vomit after they do mediocrely in them.

[Scout Derek]

FupDup, on 05 November 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

You have no idea how long I've been asking for SSRMs to be reworked into an aim-based weapon. It would make them soooo much stronger and more reliable against big targets while letting lights have a bit of an easier time since they're usually harder to aim at.

But nah, we gotta keep the autoaim mechanic for all lock-on missiles so that they stay sub-par forever.

Oh yeah, and hitreg too ya know! 50/50 chance of full damage or no damage! yay!

[FupDup]

Jun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

When people talk about skill, they usually mean FPS twitch skills. No surprise that they dont like anything that doesnt utilize that.

What I find ironic is that they almost all use laser vomit, which is literally the easiest thing in the game. Point, click, massive damage, reverse behind a rock. I tried it a few times but it was just so boring that I may as well not play. Ive actually seen a few people who usually run 3x laser vomit in FP try non-laser vomit builds, but they -always- switch back to laser vomit after they do mediocrely in them.

I'll try to find a good way to explain it...Let's just arbitrarily say that MWO in general requires 10 skills. This exact number is not important, it might be higher or lower in reality. Let's just say 10 skills for now.

The current form of SSRM (and other lock-on) mechanics reduces that skill pool from 10 to 9 by removing the aiming element.

Does that help make the point more clear?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Dee Eight, on 05 November 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Yeah... no skill required at all.

Correct.