140 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 05 November 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Except unless youre only fighting lights, winning with streaks is harder than winning with non-lock on weapons. So streaks vs non-lights requires more skill to win with than direct fire weapons.

Being at a disadvantage doesn't mean it takes more skill, it just means you are capped with how effective you can be.

Jun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

When people talk about skill, they usually mean FPS twitch skills. No surprise that they dont like anything that doesnt utilize that.

What I find ironic is that they almost all use laser vomit, which is literally the easiest thing in the game. Point, click, massive damage, reverse behind a rock. I tried it a few times but it was just so boring that I may as well not play. Ive actually seen a few people who usually run 3x laser vomit in FP try non-laser vomit builds, but they -always- switch back to laser vomit after they do mediocrely in them.

As easy as laser vomit is, not having to aim is even easier.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 05 November 2017 - 11:33 AM.

[InvictusLee]

Pariah Devalis, on 05 November 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

snip

Run a streak Summoner-B. You can fly, but it is infuriating to drive.
I've tried making it work, lots of times, then got so irritated that I sold the mech.
It takes work to make that mech function properly.

I've spectated people running amok with the same mech, the same build, and just murdering face.

Using missile lock weapons is not hard. Its a combination of things, such as lag, frame rate, ping, and the insufferable cool-down times that make the weapons hard to use on top of the nonsensical damage spread.To be straddled with that kind of cool-down, at the very least I expect my missiles to go to center mass. The current ATMS are what streaks should be minus the heat. LRMS by comparison do spread dmg, but in my experience, they go right for legs and rear CT. Its rare for my lrm boats to de-arm or destroy a ST of an opponent. Its all legs and rear ct. Why cant streaks focus on a single area or areas like that? instead of spreading the dmg so much that they are ineffective against anything heavier than 25 tons?

[Pariah Devalis]

November11th, on 05 November 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

Run a streak Summoner-B. You can fly, but it is infuriating to drive.
I've tried making it work, lots of times, then got so irritated that I sold the mech.
It takes work to make that mech function properly.

I've spectated people running amok with the same mech, the same build, and just murdering face.

Using missile lock weapons is not hard. Its a combination of things, such as lag, frame rate, ping, and the insufferable cool-down times that make the weapons hard to use on top of the nonsensical damage spread.To be straddled with that kind of cool-down, at the very least I expect my missiles to go to center mass. The current ATMS are what streaks should be minus the heat. LRMS by comparison do spread dmg, but in my experience, they go right for legs and rear CT. Its rare for my lrm boats to de-arm or destroy a ST of an opponent. Its all legs and rear ct. Why cant streaks focus on a single area or areas like that? instead of spreading the dmg so much that they are ineffective against anything heavier than 25 tons?

Because our entire missile directory system is borked. If they were recoded to "attempt to follow" the reticule, you could guide in LRMs, ATMs, and SSRMs by holding your reticule over the part you wanted to hit, reintroducing the "aim skill" requirement other weapons have, while improving performance of the weapon system as a result. Instead, we have RNG scatter on SSRM that target bones as opposed to "attempted center mass" as found on LRM and ATM. Neither approach is particularly great, but at least the latter variation tends to focus the damage significantly better.

Given that, if forced to choose between ATM and SSRM, ATM is my choice hands down. I have even seen it used well in scouting, if the ATM platform hangs back a little bit from the brawl just to stay clear of minimum range. I'd still prefer to take ASRM, however. Way more reliable, and you can actually aim it. ATM works, but I never fool myself into thinking there is much in the way of skill, there. Only awareness of your heat generated and your distance to target. Thazzit. The guided weapons do all the rest of the work.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 November 2017 - 11:52 AM.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

FupDup, on 05 November 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

I'll try to find a good way to explain it...Let's just arbitrarily say that MWO in general requires 10 skills. This exact number is not important, it might be higher or lower in reality. Let's just say 10 skills for now.

The current form of SSRM (and other lock-on) mechanics reduces that skill pool from 10 to 9 by removing the aiming element.

Does that help make the point more clear?

But not everyone wants a game that puts "aiming" above everything else. I don't. The game is shallow enough already and the interplay of locking/ECM/TAG/AMS etc is one of the things that makes it less so. Point-and-click laser stuff is brain off by comparison. If only PGI could have delivered on information warfare. Oh well.

[InvictusLee]

Pariah Devalis, on 05 November 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

Because our entire missile directory system is borked. If they were recoded to "attempt to follow" the reticule, you could guide in LRMs, ATMs, and SSRMs by holding your reticule over the part you wanted to hit, reintroducing the "aim skill" requirement other weapons have, while improving performance of the weapon system as a result. Instead, we have RNG scatter on SSRM that target bones as opposed to "attempted center mass" as found on LRM and ATM. Neither approach is particularly great, but at least the latter variation tends to focus the damage significantly better.

You make a great point. Lets fix that.

Pariah Devalis, on 05 November 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

Given that, if forced to choose between ATM and SSRM, ATM is my choice hands down. I have even seen it used well in scouting, if the ATM platform hangs back a little bit from the brawl just to stay clear of minimum range. I'd still prefer to take ASRM, however. Way more reliable, and you can actually aim it.

Given the fact that you can actually sling ATMs over and around things by simply flinging your reticule, I think they are excellent scouting weapons actually. I'd prefer if they had a slightly shorter min range so that I can get into the brawl with my unit mates, but otherwise are actually kinda fun when I'm not overheating.

[Asym]

What a silly argument.... All weapons take "a skill" to use.... Even flamers. Even rocket pods. Even..... Many are correct, the latest laser vomit take the least amount of actual skill because they are light speed weapons: no inclination or declanition requiring aim-off changes, no lead for moving targets and target range is secondary..... Even accidental targets that cross the reticle can be instantly hit.... Oh, and don't forget, the "Jedi Sabre" lasers that you can almost hear the "whoosh, whoosh" of a players slinging them around at moving mechs.... Compare a moving heavy with all ballistics......now that, takes a higher degree of skill to be effective... That takes a level of gunnery precision to do well.... Streaks are the same way but not as difficult as ballistics: yes, Streaks have target lock but No, they aren't travelling at light speed and there is this pesky issue of terrain and your team mates.... Shooting ones own teamates isn't an approved solution.....

[Scout Derek]

Asym, on 05 November 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

What a silly argument.... All weapons take "a skill" to use.... Even flamers. Even rocket pods. Even..... Many are correct, the latest laser vomit take the least amount of actual skill because they are light speed weapons: no inclination or declanition requiring aim-off changes, no lead for moving targets and target range is secondary..... Even accidental targets that cross the reticle can be instantly hit.... Oh, and don't forget, the "Jedi Sabre" lasers that you can almost hear the "whoosh, whoosh" of a players slinging them around at moving mechs.... Compare a moving heavy with all ballistics......now that, takes a higher degree of skill to be effective... That takes a level of gunnery precision to do well.... Streaks are the same way but not as difficult as ballistics: yes, Streaks have target lock but No, they aren't travelling at light speed and there is this pesky issue of terrain and your team mates.... Shooting ones own teamates isn't an approved solution.....

I mean, tracking a light mech within 200m moving at 167kph is good tracking. That's a skill I guess *shrugs*

[Jun Watarase]

FupDup, on 05 November 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

I'll try to find a good way to explain it...Let's just arbitrarily say that MWO in general requires 10 skills. This exact number is not important, it might be higher or lower in reality. Let's just say 10 skills for now.

The current form of SSRM (and other lock-on) mechanics reduces that skill pool from 10 to 9 by removing the aiming element.

Does that help make the point more clear?

Not necessarily. When you are using, say, ATMs, you have to put in a lot more effort with positioning and constantly make accurate guesses on where the enemy is, whether they will push, where they are moving, etc. If you are running laser vomit, you dont need to put in nearly as much effort on positioning because you are just going to do your massive alpha and retreat to cool down anyway, and you probably have a longer effective range.

I would say it moves the skill ratio.

Either way the OP was talking about "no skill" not "less skill". Theres an important distinction here...LRMs are the classic example. Your typical tier 5 LRM user will spam LRMs at the first sight of an indirect lock without considering whether the spotter can maintain the lock, and run out of ammo very quickly. He will probably be too far away, fire into buildings constantly and not have enough launchers/ammo to make any noticeable impact on the battle. Saying that LRMs "need no skill" implies that the effectiveness can never be increased, which is not really accurate.

[Brain Cancer]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 November 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

They require significantly less skill than non-lock on weapons. I don't care if you have to hold reticle in the vicinity of the target for 2 seconds. That's not hard.

Other than the fact that in the time it takes to get the lock, you have to absorb whatever your opponent pumps into your face, assuming they're not already there and gone after poking you. Generally, that's a significant disadvantage- Streaks are the most "reactive" weapon in the game, beating even ATM/LRMs since those can at least theoretically be dumbfired at a target.

Getting in on a distracted light? Not so hard. With the curtailed angle of lock now and one smart enough to orbit you? Tougher now than it used to be.

[R Valentine]

Dee Eight, on 05 November 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

Really? I somehow manage to hold my crosshairs on commandoes, lynx, cheetahs, and locusts just fine. I just circle dueled a cicada in a huntsman and he was definitely the quicker and more agile, and he couldn't get out of my lock with a pair of streak 4s.

Cicadas are gigantic. Locusts and Lynx's, not so much.

[Khobai]

Quote

Being at a disadvantage doesn't mean it takes more skill, it just means you are capped with how effective you can be.

of course it does.

in chess playing with a handicap requires more skill to win

thats why they give handicaps to higher skilled players when they play lower skilled players. the disadvantage of starting with less pieces makes it more difficult for the skilled player to win.

using streaks against an assault mech is effectively the same thing as a handicap. it requires more skill for you to defeat the assault mech than if you were using a loadout better suited for killing assaults. its no different.

Quote

They require significantly less skill than non-lock on weapons. I don't care if you have to hold reticle in the vicinity of the target for 2 seconds. That's not hard.

against lights sure. killing lights with streaks is easy mode.

but against assaults, killing an assault with streaks requires more skill than killing it with autocannons or laser vomit. because streaks are at a disadvantage against assaults and the only real way to overcome that disadvantage is with skill.

context matters. streaks arnt always easy mode all the time. against assaults winning with streaks is actually harder than using laser vomit or gauss/laser or UACspam.

Quote

Saying that LRMs "need no skill" implies that the effectiveness can never be increased, which is not really accurate.

well again its a case of context.

if youre shooting at potatos that dont even attempt to dodge your LRMs, then LRMs pretty much dont require any skill.

but if youre using LRMs against more experienced players who know how to dodge LRMs, then you need to up your game to make your LRMs connect, and that requires more skill. you need to pick targets better, position better, time your LRMs better, hold locks better, etc...

Edited by Khobai, 05 November 2017 - 03:36 PM.

[davoodoo]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 November 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

They require significantly less skill than non-lock on weapons. I don't care if you have to hold reticle in the vicinity of the target for 2 seconds. That's not hard.

Tbh maybe thats me, but mechs are ******* huge and putting crosshair in center of mass aint hard by any stretch of imagination.

On the other hand consistently finding position to lock on enemy without being torn to pieces by enemy fire.

Yeah ill stick with streaks for skill factor here.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

If I told someone to peel a potato using a soup spoon, would that person be 'skilled' for succeeding in peeling the potato with the spoon?

No, not really. Congratulate them for effort, maybe; for using the wrong tool to get the job done with great effort.

Streaks have a use for killing lightly armored, highly-mobile targets.That's their niche, killing a highly evasive target with minimal effort. Now if a Gauss/PPC user killed a light at point blank after missing 3-4 times in a row with them, which user has more skill? The player using the wrong tool for the job (using sniping weapons at point blank range, where low traverse and pitch rates make aiming very difficult) or the person who has picked his fights correctly? I'd say the person using the streaks has the skill in this case.

Now to reverse the situation. If the streak user failed to pick his targets correctly and went after an assault loaded down with ballistics, say an Annihilator, the streak user is most certainly not skilled by picking a target where he is at a severe disadvantage. He will get murdered by the massive DPS of the ballistics while not being able to do much.

It's a completely different set of skills. Lasers and most other direct-fire weapons reward users for having mechanical skill in being able to aim - or in the case of projectile weapons, lead the target. Positioning, while rewarded, is not entirely critical as the much higher DPS of these weapons tends to melt through any armor anyway. Lock-on weapons, like LRMs, ATMs, and streaks, are highly dependent on positioning and being able to pick your targets. They reward aim a lot less, as there is a major amount of inherent randomness in how they do damage, but they reward positioning very strongly when they catch enemies off-guard.

[Bogus]

That's the best description of the differences between missiles and guns I've heard in a while, I like it.

[Jay Leon Hart]

If taking a lot of time to kill an Assault with Streaks = skill, then Flamers are the most skillful weapon in the game.

[LordNothing]

James Argent, on 05 November 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Holding a target lock is harder than passing the crosshairs over the target once and clicking the mouse whenever that happens to occur. 'If crosshairs = mech, then click' requires reflexes but not constant and changing predictive analysis.

Then try it with counter-ecm damage...it's significantly longer than two seconds, let alone 'instant, whenever' where you have to hold a direct-fire TAG on a moving target to achieve a lock.

Not to mention ignorant dead spectators who try to tell you that TAG doesn't interact with Streaks 'because they already all hit.' Probably the same morons who couldn't get a TAG kill to save their lives during that one event.

depends on weapons. ppfld weapons may seem like a point and click adventure game mode. though to be fair those weapons tend to require an advanced skill, ability to lead targets. even lasers and burst uacs tend to require a little bit of follow through to keep the damage on the targets. i tend to use tag with streaks, on those rare occasions i use streaks, and this makes them essentially laser like in their execution. frankly my favorite missiles right now are mrms for their uncanny ability to sustain high damage output for long periods of time with reasonable heat, if not completely precise. this is why the mrm40 makes a great objective busting weapon for the is in fp.

biggest thing i dont like is the implementation of so many easy mode weapons. essentially relegates them to the low skill players instead of being a weapon everyone can use. i think they need more advanced modes of operation so that high skill matches dont turn into laser vomit arenas. i like the living legends tag better as it completely overrides standard target lock and you can put those missiles exactly where you want them, giving lerms an advanced mode of operation. being able to put 50 missiles in the sky and land them all square ct would be rather op. fortunately for living legends, target sharing is a bit more involved than simply pressing r. if you could tag specific locations on the mech and have the missiles go there, that would make streaks a weapon that is approchable at higher skill levels.

Edited by LordNothing, 05 November 2017 - 04:20 PM.

[Escef]

November11th, on 05 November 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

LRMS by comparison do spread dmg, but in my experience, they go right for legs and rear CT. Its rare for my lrm boats to de-arm or destroy a ST of an opponent. Its all legs and rear ct.

I can tell you right now why that happens. Because your target has turned it's back to you and is running away. The missiles aren't adjusting their firing arc fast enough to land any higher than the lower half of your target, and with the back turned to you, it's basically all CT-R and legs that the missiles connect with.

Quite frankly put, you're firing at people that have no clue how to deal with LRMs. You fight LRMs by getting closer to them, not farther away. If you have an arm with no weapons, you shift that towards the enemy to help absorb incoming fire. Once you break LOS to attacker/spotters, you move laterally (side to side) relative to the missiles' path.

It just amazes me, the bizarre contrasts involved with LRMs. They are one of the most maligned weapons in the game; bad players whining about how OP they are, good players whining about being stuck with teammates that use such an UP weapon. They rely on the target far more than the attacker to determine their accuracy, which means you should expect that they don't work against good players, yet they often do. I'm tier 2, and when the solo queue gets exceptionally stupid on me I pull out a BLR-1S LRMboat, and it just wrecks faces. yet according to all the Tier 1 "experts" I'm a detriment to my team (despite getting multiple solo kills, double digit component destructions, and often scoring as much damage as the rest of the assaults combined; and ending the match with barely enough armor to weld into a coffee cup, cherry red internals, empty ammo bins, and my support lasers practically running white hot). Quite honestly, the reason why they work is that while people may know how to play against them, in the heat of battle they demonstrate that they do not apply their knowledge.

As for streaks, I've posted over and over again about how relatively weak a weapon system they are, and about how their mythical power to one-shot lights is just that: a myth. But nobody wants to believe it, they want their bogeyman.

[Mcgral18]

Escef, on 05 November 2017 - 04:24 PM, said:

As for streaks, I've posted over and over again about how relatively weak a weapon system they are, and about how their mythical power to one-shot lights is just that: a myth. But nobody wants to believe it, they want their bogeyman.

They certainly can be
That's their thing; RNGeesus incarnate

They can remove the arm or ST (hitbox dependent) of a Medium in a single volley as well; if they torso twist.
Then all the targeted bones NOT heading to the Legs go into the same arm or ST

That hurts.


But it's still massively inflated damage as opposed to something that doesn't target any seven given bones.

[Davegt27]

I stopped playing MWO by 50%

and stopped using streaks so most of my problems
with the game are going away

I just need to calculate my new camshaft timing after my head and block
where shaved .008

[Lykaon]

Dee Eight, on 05 November 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

when beaten/out damage outputted by them. Ignoring the fact you cannot fire them without a weapon lock... and that THAT requires holding your crosshairs on the target for about 2 seconds... and you have to keep holding the crosshairs on target to keep firing them.... there's the mental math that goes into using them. Are you in range ? Will the missiles have the range to chase down the target ? Will they have the speed to do that before they run out of range ? Will anything get in the way during their flight (like a friendly) ? What if the enemy turns...are they going to track into a building ? How's PGI's hit registration lately ? Will it result in better if chain or group fired as a result ?

Yeah... no skill required at all. And I don't boat streaks on anything.

Honestly, I could argue Streaks on a proper platform are easier to use than LRMs.

My view of a "proper platform" is a light or fast medium built for the express purpose of killing light mechs or low weight mediums.

And here is why. Most of the applicable tasks for locking a target remain the same for either weapon. But the LRM user needs to always estimate how likely the lock is to provide a solid target for a volley based on lock retention,distance to target and potential counter-play utilized by the intended target.

The guess work for a streak user is significantly less. Is the target in range... yes/no Is the target about to slip past cover in the next half second evading the salvo... yes/no And that is basically it.

Meanwhile LRMs...

Is the target in range yes/no...are you sure because vertical distance counts for max range?

Is the target about to get into cover...yes/no...are you sure because at 500m range they have around 3 seconds of movement to react to your missile launch? And get a warning!

What about radar derpers? ECM? AMS along the volley path? Oh and then there is the ballistic arc path is that free of obstructions? Will you hit terrain before the target? Are you sticking your neck out to far to hold this lock? remember your 180m min range! Are you under an overhang that will cause missile collisions? is the ceiling high enough to shoot out from?

If it's indirect fire how long will the friendly retain the lock? will it be long enough? how well do you know the map layout to fire on a mech you can't see? is the target already in cover you can't possibly shoot over/through?


Many of the same issues as Streaks with the added issues of longer time spans to apply guesswork in due to distance and slower projectiles. The longer time spans increase variables and make accuracy of guesswork lower.

Edited by Lykaon, 05 November 2017 - 08:58 PM.