40 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

LordNothing, on 08 November 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

i like to think the mobility is an artifact of clanxl and on some mechs forced full jump jets on omnis (an is pilot would use the tonnage on other things). is still have better light mechs, with how many clan lights are locked on terrible engines.

but when you start looking at various traits you find that clan does it better. speed, mobility, firepower, cooling, lasers, hardpoint count, equipment size, uogrades and so on. meanwhile is has quirks and more armor. is needs more things its good at. in lore its numbers, but thats not represented here at all.

This is so false it isn't even funny. Clan weapons run much, much hotter than IS weapons. This is obviously to counter the fact that Clans can mount more DHS than the IS can. End result, even with the larger number of DHS, Clan mech tend to run on the hot side, usually much hotter than IS mechs. Lasers have longer duration which tends to spread damage all the hell over. I could go on but this isn't what the topic is about, it is about Clan vs IS speed and mobility.

The point has been made that your typical IS mech has better agility stats where you typical Clan mech has a higher top speed. Another point that I kind of pointed out but needs to be brought up again is that your typical Clan mech gets that speed advantage through being stuck with extremely over-large engines that tend to take up too much free tonnage to provide for optimal builds on Clan mechs. This is also a disadvantage for the Clans whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not.

So you have one advantage, speed, offset by two disadvantages, agility and wasted tonnage spend on much to large engines for the Clans. Personally I think this balances itself out pretty well.

Additionally this only applies broadly across the entire faction's worth of mechs. If you start to look at the mechs individually these statements don't necessarily hold true. IS lights tend to be faster and more agile than Clan lights, a distinct advantage offset by the fact that IS lights tend to run XL engines. Again we see negative traits balanced by positive traits. IS mediums also tend to be fast and more agile than Clan mediums due to the ability for IS mechs to up-engine their mechs to optimize their builds. Again though, this speed advantage is offset by the IS XL engine vulnerability. For heavies, Clan mechs tend to have an advantage in speed but usually suffer dramatically in agility such as we see with the Night Gyr's pitiful 13.11 acceleration rate, a rate that is eclipsed by many IS Assault mechs and all IS heavy mechs. When looking at assaults, speed isn't really much of a factor because even the largest engine can only push a Assault mech so fast and both IS and Clan Assault tend to push around the same top speed. Here though you have the Clan's pushing superior firepower but at the expense of maneuvering like a brick which in turn means they tend to take more damage due to not being able to move into and out of cover as quickly as your typical IS assault.

You will notice that for each and every advantage IS has over Clans or Clans have over IS, there is a disadvantage to go along with it. If someone took the time to catalog all these advantages and disadvantages and to, without bias, calculate just what effect something like being able to go from full speed forward to full reverse a full 1-2 seconds faster means for a mech that happened to walk around a corner into the enemies full firing line, then everyone would see that there just isn't that much, if any, overall imbalance between IS and Clans right now. Are their some stand out mechs on each side? Yes absolutely, but the balance of power isn't off by that much overall. I just wish people would quit trying to find an excuse, any excuse to claim IS vs Clan imbalance.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 08 November 2017 - 07:19 PM.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 08 November 2017 - 07:17 PM, said:

You will notice that for each and every advantage IS has over Clans or Clans have over IS, there is a disadvantage to go along with it.

Hogwash. What's the disadvantage of 2 slot CDHS, 7 slot Clan Endo/Ferro, CXL compared to IS XL, and free CASE? What's the disadvantage of Clan ECM/BAP/NARC, which costs less slots and weight compared to IS versions but performs the same? And why should Clan TCs offer better bonuses than IS TCs of the same class?

Don't say fixed equipment, cause Clans now have battlemechs. That excuse is already gone. Fixed equipment was more of a compensation for switchable omnipods in the first place.

naterist, on 08 November 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

No one ever brings up the insane mobility clanners have, coupled with range. If pgi wants IS's niche to be superiority in brawls, and clanners niche to be superior at mid-long range, then IS needs to be moving faster than it is now. One of the biggest things youll notice about meta IS heavies and assaults in fw is that they are most of the oddball mechs that can move at 80kph. Clan side 80 kph is pretty standerd.

Yes, it is a noticeable balance issue for FP. Clan first wave tend to move around the same speed of 75-85 kph, while IS first wave tend to move from anywhere between 58-80, which results in either strung out or slow as hell wave. The moving of the drop zones on certain Invasion maps helped the initial trek to the gates though.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 November 2017 - 07:42 PM.

[DANKnuggz]

Andi Nagasia, on 08 November 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

why wouldnt it be?
does having a Sluggish TBR, make it not a BattleTech game?
is having an Agile TBR one of the Prerequisites for a BattleTech game?
if so i guess HBS's BattleTech wont be a BattleTech Game as it wont have TBRs,

Actually yes, yes it does..... If you change a mech to the point where it doesn't handle like a TRUE TBR then yes all you've made is a pile of HORSE EXCRIMENT in the shape of a TBR....

If I slap a Mustang body on the frame of a Pinto is it really right to go around calling it a muscle car???

The mechs in BT are more than just what they look like and if that isn't absolutely obvious to PGI then maybe they were poor choice to carry on the franchise...

Edited by DANKnuggz, 08 November 2017 - 08:29 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

It wouldnt be too farfetched for some clsn agility to be buffed, if is top possible speed is increased.

clan players have been telling PGI all along to make ISXL survive side torso destruction

that was preferable to clan agility getting nerfed to !@#$

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeah only a couple of the smaller clanmechs can even match the speeds of many IS smaller mechs, the difference is the engine, IS is forced to sacrifice so much for a decent engine allowing them such speeds, whereas clans can spam in near the max and plus 20 heatsinks usually with not much issues.

[Nema Nabojiv]

El Bandito, on 08 November 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

Yes, it is a noticeable balance issue for FP. Clan first wave tend to move around the same speed of 75-85 kph, while IS first wave tend to move from anywhere between 58-80,

Soo, the first wave of clan assaults consisting of madcats and marauders moves 75? That must be some very special loadouts.

As a matter of fact, its pointless to try to balance the whole game around half-dead mode. it will not make the fp less dead but it will hit the only alive mode instead.

[El Bandito]

Nema Nabojiv, on 09 November 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

Soo, the first wave of clan assaults consisting of madcats and marauders moves 75? That must be some very special loadouts.

As a matter of fact, its pointless to try to balance the whole game around half-dead mode. it will not make the fp less dead but it will hit the only alive mode instead.

Most MAD-IIC chassis usually moves at 71.5 kph, without speed tweak. If your MAD-IIC (with the exception of Scorch) is going slower than that, you are building it wrong.

FP, low populated as it maybe, is still the reason for the formation of many units. PGI cannot discard it. As for SQ, the complete randomness of pugs makes IS Clan disparity less obvious. But rest assured, Clans still have overall superiority. (MS) plays extensively on both sides. We know what is what.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 November 2017 - 02:27 AM.

[Tarogato]

I think OP is forgetting that IS mechs can't afford the tonnage to run faster engines. Raise all the IS engine caps to 400 and I'll still be running all my mechs between 295 and 325 LE and XL. This is one of the things that makes Clan and IS different - Clan is supposed to be faster on the whole.

[Nema Nabojiv]

El Bandito, on 09 November 2017 - 02:21 AM, said:

Most MAD-IIC chassis usually moves at 71.5 kph, without speed tweak. If your MAD-IIC (with the exception of Scorch) is going slower than that, you are building it wrong.

The only two I have are the scorch and ecm one, and I honestly never even though about making or wanting them go faster because why would you need more than 64 on an assault. But ok, point taken, there may be fp considerations why you do want them go 71.

El Bandito, on 09 November 2017 - 02:21 AM, said:

FP, low populated as it maybe, is still the reason for the formation of many units. PGI cannot discard it. As for SQ, the complete randomness of pugs makes IS Clan disparity less obvious. But rest assured, Clans still have overall superiority. (MS) plays extensively on both sides. We know what is what.

There are other ways to address FP-people concerns than carpet nerfing half of the mechs and pіssing off regular players.
Anything form further tonnage increase to expanding IS dropdecks to 5 mechs.

Though I still think its playebase issue rather than tech imbalance. I do remember how Paul(?) was going to increase clan tonnage when IS facerolled everything after the new tech was introduced. Back then players had no problems with clan balance. Maybe it was a bad idea to add 3 new clans with new goodies to grind for, and not add new IS factions to compensate, who knows.

[Almond Brown]

naterist, on 08 November 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

It wouldnt be too farfetched for some clsn agility to be buffed, if is top possible speed is increased. Mobility should not be a factor in a fps unless it comes with specific trade offs. Right now thrir saying, "well is moves molasses slow in tabletop compared to clan, so lets make that built in to the game, but thats silly if your also putting in a mechlab with its own set of values that achieve 'balance.' Why does it need to be like that, its silly. If you want to use your mechlab weight to go a certain speed you should be able too.

As for clan agility nerfs in general, ive noticed on both the kdk3 and the night gyr that theres a certain point of slugishness were people stop using it. Up until that point people dont care about the agility because its msnageable... up until the tipping point tbe kodiak and night gyr crossed, but that seems less due to balance than it did the fact that those mechs were the only mechs that could run rediculously OP builds for that timeframe of the game, and pgi decided to nerf the chassis instead of fix the underlying issue. Now that the meta has moved on from that, they havent un-nerfed it in response to those specific builds not being OP AF anymore.

That seems to happened several times to several mechs in the past, and due to clan build rules and values, they just hsve it happen to them a lot.

Quote

instead of fix the underlying issue

Care to expound on exactly what you mean by that?

It is always good to hear from the "Armchair Developers" what those "underlying issues" really are...

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 08 November 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

Hogwash. What's the disadvantage of 2 slot CDHS, 7 slot Clan Endo/Ferro, CXL compared to IS XL, and free CASE? What's the disadvantage of Clan ECM/BAP/NARC, which costs less slots and weight compared to IS versions but performs the same? And why should Clan TCs offer better bonuses than IS TCs of the same class?

Don't say fixed equipment, cause Clans now have battlemechs. That excuse is already gone. Fixed equipment was more of a compensation for switchable omnipods in the first place.




Yes, it is a noticeable balance issue for FP. Clan first wave tend to move around the same speed of 75-85 kph, while IS first wave tend to move from anywhere between 58-80, which results in either strung out or slow as hell wave. The moving of the drop zones on certain Invasion maps helped the initial trek to the gates though.

I will toss it right back at you. Ever notice how despite the fact that the Clan's get all these benefits in regards to a smaller critical space usage that they run just as hot or hotter than IS mechs? That is because Clan weapons heat output is tuned to be significantly hotter than IS weapons heat output to balance out the fact the Clans can mount more DHS. Your general Clan build out will require 3-5 more DHS to cool the same levels of firepower. That is 3-5 extra tons and 6-10 extra criticals tied up in DHS for your average clan mech. That goes a long way toward compensating for the fact the Clans have DHS, Structure, etc that takes up less critical space. But hey is is much easier not to look at it that way and instead jump up and down throwing a tantrum that it is unfair the a Clan mech gets DHS that only use 2 critical slots as opposed to 3.

As far as the speed again your focusing on one aspect, the trek to the gates. Sure a higher top speed is a bonus here but eventually the fight gets in close and it almost always degenerates into a brawl, where having better agility is more important than having a few extra kph of top speed. 10 kph translates to roughly 6 mph difference. The average human running speed is 10 mph...yes...that extra 10 kph your complaining about is around the same speed achieved by a person jogging briskly. Feels kind of silly to be complaining about a 10 kph speed advantage when you look at it that way doesn't it. If not, it should.

As far as the fixed equipment is concerned, so what if Clans get battlemechs? The majority of their line up are Omnimechs with that fixed equipment. Also the majority of the most commonly used Clan mechs are still Omnimechs despite battlemechs being available for them. What does this mean? Gosh...well maybe that fixed equipment is still a major factor when your discussing Clan-IS balance. You can't just dismiss it because about 10% of the available Clan mechs are battlemechs. That again is an example of picking and choosing what statistics and number you want to use to prove your point while throwing out anything that doesn't paint the picture you want to paint. Speaking of Omnimechs, do you have a clue how many Omnimechs I own that have 2,3,4 or maybe even as much as 5 open critical slots that are useless because Clan Omnimechs don't have dynamic structure and armor criticals? Tons and Tons of them. I was experimenting with builds for one of my courgars last night and ended up with 3 extra tons and 4 critical slots available after I built out the mech. I had one critical open in each arm and 1 in each side torso and exactly zero pieces of equipment that fit into just one critical slot to mount. If I would have had access to those dynamic critical slots, I could have mounted 2 more DHS and virtually eliminated that free tonnage and had an awesome build but nope, had to scrap the entire idea because it ran slight too hot without those two extra DHS I couldn't mount. Point is that was 4 wasted critical slots that I couldn't use due to the fixed slots and equipment that many Clan mechs are stuck with. This situation which happens quite often with Clan mechs also tends to help balance out the fact Clan structure, armor and other equipment's requirements are less.

I could go on to talk about how the fixed equipment can often lead to Clan Omnimechs being unable to mount an optimal configuration as well and give plenty of example where this is the case but this wall of text is too large as is so in Summary, you are looking at Clan-IS balance with blinders on and either unaware alot of the facts or intentionally picking and choosing what evidence supports your statements.

[Jackal Noble]

Not to mention component health.

[Verilligo]

Viktor Drake, on 09 November 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

I will toss it right back at you. Ever notice how despite the fact that the Clan's get all these benefits in regards to a smaller critical space usage that they run just as hot or hotter than IS mechs? That is because Clan weapons heat output is tuned to be significantly hotter than IS weapons heat output to balance out the fact the Clans can mount more DHS. Your general Clan build out will require 3-5 more DHS to cool the same levels of firepower. That is 3-5 extra tons and 6-10 extra criticals tied up in DHS for your average clan mech. That goes a long way toward compensating for the fact the Clans have DHS, Structure, etc that takes up less critical space. But hey is is much easier not to look at it that way and instead jump up and down throwing a tantrum that it is unfair the a Clan mech gets DHS that only use 2 critical slots as opposed to 3.

Literally not true. Clan mechs, because of multiple Clan advantages, cool faster than IS mechs. Mounting 3-5 more DHS than an IS mech results in a VASTLY improved cooling rate, especially when going from lower numbers like 15 HS and then adding until you get 20 HS or more. Clan weapons are hotter per shot because they're lighter, smaller, have better range, and do more damage than IS weapons. But just because they are hotter per shot does not make them less heat efficient. Mathematically, everything is in favor of Clan weapons at the moment, this argument literally cannot be defeated in most cases.

Quote

As far as the speed again your focusing on one aspect, the trek to the gates. Sure a higher top speed is a bonus here but eventually the fight gets in close and it almost always degenerates into a brawl, where having better agility is more important than having a few extra kph of top speed. 10 kph translates to roughly 6 mph difference. The average human running speed is 10 mph...yes...that extra 10 kph your complaining about is around the same speed achieved by a person jogging briskly. Feels kind of silly to be complaining about a 10 kph speed advantage when you look at it that way doesn't it. If not, it should.

The first part of this has some truth in spots, but it neglects to account for the faster top speed leading to better positioning leading to better map control. That isn't always the case, though, and cannot be expected. Given smart pilots can strategically relocate to better poking position and use their extra speed to do so while staying out of your effective range, I'd still say that speed is important.

The second part of this, though, is a perfect example of a strawman argument. What does it matter what KPH translates to in MPH and human walking speed? My squiggly goes 1300 garblocks a tock, your woopdedoop squiggly goes 1100 garblocks a tock. Why? Because my squiggly can afford it without any detriment and your squiggly can't because it can't afford to spare the available derkidomps. But that's okay, because 200 garblocks a tock is only the speed of a shiftyswoo! This is the argument you're trying to make.

Edited by Verilligo, 09 November 2017 - 01:00 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

W A R K H A N, on 08 November 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

Just played my IS mechs specifically my brand new Uziels and old school catapults after pretty much playing clans exclusively for the last couple years. All I gotta say is wow - IS laser vomit is easy mode. WTF are you guys complaining about. Not to mention all those structure quirks and PPFLD ballistics. Heavy PPC's man I only wish cerppc's behaved like this.

IS laser vomit is easy mode? So that makes Clan laser vomit... what? Baby mode?

JackalBeast, on 08 November 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

Ladies, try to stay on topic rather than go down the typical slippery slope of "waaaghh" clan mechs. Some of y'all are like broken records. tic tic tic .....tic tic tic.....tic tic tic..... Oh hey like my post coz I said the same crap I say on every single thread!

Well, when the 3rd reply is "IS laser vomit is easy mode" it invites the same old, tired discussions.

Viktor Drake, on 08 November 2017 - 07:17 PM, said:

This is so false it isn't even funny. Clan weapons run much, much hotter than IS weapons. This is obviously to counter the fact that Clans can mount more DHS than the IS can. End result, even with the larger number of DHS, Clan mech tend to run on the hot side, usually much hotter than IS mechs. Lasers have longer duration which tends to spread damage all the hell over. I could go on but this isn't what the topic is about, it is about Clan vs IS speed and mobility.

As mentioned in the last few threads this lie was brought up in, a Clan 'mech running the same or similar damage than an IS 'mech will run cooler. Some will even run cooler with substantially higher damage.

Viktor Drake, on 09 November 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

I will toss it right back at you. Ever notice how despite the fact that the Clan's get all these benefits in regards to a smaller critical space usage that they run just as hot or hotter than IS mechs? That is because Clan weapons heat output is tuned to be significantly hotter than IS weapons heat output to balance out the fact the Clans can mount more DHS. Your general Clan build out will require 3-5 more DHS to cool the same levels of firepower. That is 3-5 extra tons and 6-10 extra criticals tied up in DHS for your average clan mech. That goes a long way toward compensating for the fact the Clans have DHS, Structure, etc that takes up less critical space. But hey is is much easier not to look at it that way and instead jump up and down throwing a tantrum that it is unfair the a Clan mech gets DHS that only use 2 critical slots as opposed to 3.

Please see above.

JackalBeast, on 09 November 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

Not to mention component health.

Good one!

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 09 November 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

I will toss it right back at you. Ever notice how despite the fact that the Clan's get all these benefits in regards to a smaller critical space usage that they run just as hot or hotter than IS mechs? That is because Clan weapons heat output is tuned to be significantly hotter than IS weapons heat output to balance out the fact the Clans can mount more DHS. Your general Clan build out will require 3-5 more DHS to cool the same levels of firepower. That is 3-5 extra tons and 6-10 extra criticals tied up in DHS for your average clan mech. That goes a long way toward compensating for the fact the Clans have DHS, Structure, etc that takes up less critical space. But hey is is much easier not to look at it that way and instead jump up and down throwing a tantrum that it is unfair the a Clan mech gets DHS that only use 2 critical slots as opposed to 3.

Are you friggin kidding me? Those extra heat is compensating for extra damage of Clan weapons. Which allows Clan mechs to cool as fast, or faster than IS mechs while doing more damage. That's NOT balanced! If I build a las-vomit Clan mech with exact same damage alpha as IS las-vomit mech, the Clan version will ALWAYS run cooler. Don't even bring longer Clan laser duration on this, as that compensates for longer range of Clan lasers.

And you still haven't addressed my examples of blatant Clan equipment superiority without "disadvantages" to offset them, in any satisfactory way. Your omni-mech argument is already outdated and should be discarded, as Clan battlemechs have been dominating the game for quite a while. The gap will only widen as more Clan battlemechs are released.

Finally, IS omni-mechs, if released as is, will be complete garbage compared to Clan omnis, and you know why? TECH DISPARITY--which is obvious to anyone without closed mind.

Edited by El Bandito, 09 November 2017 - 06:29 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Andi Nagasia, on 08 November 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

why wouldnt it be?
does having a Sluggish TBR, make it not a BattleTech game?
is having an Agile TBR one of the Prerequisites for a BattleTech game?
if so i guess HBS's BattleTech wont be a BattleTech Game as it wont have TBRs,

You don't have to be hyperbolic about it.

Still though, TBRs were supposed to be these mind-boggling fast heavy mechs, making them not agile is uncharacteristic.

But then we both know that "A BattleTech" game of MWO is simply for shits and giggles.

[Andi Nagasia]

The6thMessenger, on 09 November 2017 - 06:38 PM, said:

You don't have to be hyperbolic about it.

Still though, TBRs were supposed to be these mind-boggling fast heavy mechs, making them not agile is uncharacteristic.

But then we both know that "A BattleTech" game of MWO is simply for shits and giggles.

i was making a joke 6thMessenger, you know that,

[Moira]

Im no pro MWO statics counter, but this topic I have something to say.

1) TBR's used to be my favorite Clan mechs until the desync hit and other nerfs. Due you had decent agile and JJ's capable mech with good speed too, but after the nerfs I think my KGC-0000 is more agile than the TBR's.

2) Assaults and speed and Agility. On this matter as my own point is that speed doesnt matter so much or time to get into position if you cant re position or turn / move properly. Like famous KDK-3 feels good to play when your team mates work with ya, but holy banana if you have twist/move to cover it's like driving car with flat tires... it aint going nowhere.

1.1) as mentioned by others about the over sized engines on Clan mechs specially in heavy mechs, I would love to lower my engine alot in some cases to fit more ATM's but I cant...

So over all its what you prefer yourself, I would love to be little slower on majority of my Clan mechs to fit more ammo/bigger weapons or get bit more agility....

[Sjorpha]

The6thMessenger, on 09 November 2017 - 06:38 PM, said:

Still though, TBRs were supposed to be these mind-boggling fast heavy mechs, making them not agile is uncharacteristic.

I actually agree with this, making TW uncharacteristically clumsy isn't a good way to balance it, it really doesn't fit in with it's story very well and it's so iconic in the lore that you should be a bit mindful about that. It was IMO better to have the negative quirks on certain pods and such if it needed nerfing.

It's still really childish when people say MWO "isn't battletech" just because something deviates from their preferrence, battletech is a setting and an IP, not a detailed ruleset that every game has to follow. All games in that setting are battletech games and it's ok for them to be very different, you can have arcadey battletech games and grognard battletech games at the same time, it's not a problem and means more people can get into the IP, like children can play mechassault and old strategy geezers can play TT and then bond over how cool some fav mech is.

Stop using that type of nonsense as a qualification for opinions, it's not needed. It's perfectly legitimate to simply represent your own opinion about how a game should or should not be without external qualification.

[Mystere]

DANKnuggz, on 08 November 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

Actually yes, yes it does..... If you change a mech to the point where it doesn't handle like a TRUE TBR then yes all you've made is a pile of HORSE EXCRIMENT in the shape of a TBR....

If I slap a Mustang body on the frame of a Pinto is it really right to go around calling it a muscle car???

The mechs in BT are more than just what they look like and if that isn't absolutely obvious to PGI then maybe they were poor choice to carry on the franchise...

Not only is it not obvious to PGI, it obviously is also not obvious to many people playing this game.

Of course if one really wants only a generic robot shooter with BT skins ...

Edited by Mystere, 10 November 2017 - 09:33 AM.