40 replies to this topic

[naterist]

No one ever brings up the insane mobility clanners have, coupled with range. If pgi wants IS's niche to be superiority in brawls, and clanners niche to be superior at mid-long range, then IS needs to be moving faster than it is now. One of the biggest things youll notice about meta IS heavies and assaults in fw is that they are most of the oddball mechs that can move at 80kph. Clan side 80 kph is pretty standerd.

So to help with balance (this is just one component of balance) id say change the way max engine size is decided. Clan omnis arent a problem, clan battlemechs are ok with current system, since their already relatively hauling ***, but IS mechs tend to be running much, much slower, especially assaults. Instead of using a formula (i think thats how pgi does it), instead use a base speed for each weight class, then look at the stock build and raise or lower its max engine size based on the stocks engine, relative to the average engine for its weight class. We shouldnt have ANY mechs incapable of going 60kph, thats just rediculous. MAYBE the annihilator, but its a 100 tonner, it can only fit a 400 for 69kph if there werent rules anyways. Urbie same thing, actually its a better example. If all the other lights are doing 130ish, then idk why you limit the urbie to 100kph besides its lore based feel. Thats too insane. If it went 120 maxed engine, then itd still be useful, and it wouldnt require medium-heavy mech levels of armour to balance it. It would also still be limited by weight and the like, so its not like its even a major buff to it.

In the end though, that is mechs cant even choose to sacrifice some weapon for a comprable speed with their clan counterparts makes fw even harder to balance, because its another balance catagory that is locked in the clans favor.

[Andi Nagasia]

actually it was discussed for a long time,
but then PGI separated Engine Rating from Agility(the Great Engine Desync)

since then Mech Agility has been a Stat that PGI controls and Balances,
many IS mechs are much much more Agile than many Clan mechs, and many Clan mechs are sluggish,
their are some out liners on both sides, agile Clan mechs & Sluggish IS mechs,

now its true many Clan Mechs go faster than IS mechs, but Speed isnt really all that Agility is,
Agility is made up from Twist Speed, Turn Speed, Acceleration, Deceleration, and Speed,

During (the Great Engine Desync) PGI unbound all but Speed to Engine Rating,
this has allowed Low engined mechs to preform on a better playing field with big engined mechs,
since then PGI has contently been working on mech mobility, to balance mechs based on size, shape, ect,

so in that regard yes Clan Mechs are Faster but often much more Sluggish,
where as IS mechs are Slower but have much better agility and in so more mobility,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 08 November 2017 - 01:12 PM.

[naterist]

Andi Nagasia, on 08 November 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

actually it was discussed for a long time,
but then PGI separated Engine Rating from Agility(the Great Engine Desync)

since then Mech Agility has been a Stat that PGI controls and Balances,
many IS mechs are much much more Agile than many Clan mechs, and many Clan mechs are sluggish,
their are some out liners on both sides, agile Clan mechs & Sluggish IS mechs,

now its true many Clan Mechs go faster than IS mechs, but Speed isnt really all that Agility is,
Agility is made up from Twist Speed, Turn Speed, Acceleration, Deceleration, and Speed,

During (the Great Engine Desync) PGI unbound all but Speed to Engine Rating,
this has allowed Low engined mechs to preform on a better playing field with big engined mechs,
since then PGI has contently been working on mech mobility, to balance mechs based on size, shape, ect,

so in that regard yes Clan Mechs are Faster but often much more Sluggish,
where as IS mechs are Slower but have much better agility and in so more mobility,

I see your point, but in a ranged trading role that sluggishness is less detrimental, and so their 'niche' isnt affected. IS mechs need to get to the fight in a relatively quick timeframe to brawl.

And if your trying to balance for fw, were its very focused on strategy over anything else, the dc is a bit hamstringed by mechs that just cant get into position in time. Clans can nope the f*** out if things turn to crap by just running to a better position faster than the is can react to them. They need a bit more speed, even if they gotta sacrifice some weapons to go fast, itll better, and normalizing max engines means you can through mobility out of the list of downsides the is has, as slower ground speed is seriously detrimentsl to a brawler, which once again, is the best the IS can do atm.

[Aiden Skye]

Just played my IS mechs specifically my brand new Uziels and old school catapults after pretty much playing clans exclusively for the last couple years. All I gotta say is wow - IS laser vomit is easy mode. WTF are you guys complaining about. Not to mention all those structure quirks and PPFLD ballistics. Heavy PPC's man I only wish cerppc's behaved like this.

[Andi Nagasia]

we have to remember the Skill tree also offers IS mechs better bonuses to Duration and Cooldowns,
(IS gets -15% Duration(to Clans -10%) / (IS gets -12% Cooldown(to Clans -9.6%)

not that thats big, but its something, also IS has structure Quirks, which helps as IS mechs Twist more Efficiently,
i think its that Clan players have to play more offensively where IS players have to be more defensive,

[Papaspud]

Looks to me like we should buff the clans some more then, more agility, and more armor.... that will make the balance closer. I mean EVERYBODY knows clan just has better pilots, but IS mechs are just SO much better, git gud.

[Jackal Noble]

As Andi said, a higher top speed does not equate even close to mobility or the ability to traverse terrain. IS has that, Clan does not. I think you are really underestimating the mobility and only looking at the number value. Clan mechs for the most part, move like they have molasses in their joints. Mobility also plays a huge part in survivabilty, not top speed. Ugh...

[Jackal Noble]

Short of a few exceptions (linebacker, masc on the sadcat) a Clan mech would need to invest more heartily to achieve a similar agility to its IS equivalent. This is fine as most IS mechs, with the exception of lights top out at a lower speed. You would be really surprised how negligible that 10-15 kph is tho when you see it in game next to a mech that goes slower but accelerates faster and turns on a dime.

[Angel of Annihilation]

naterist, on 08 November 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

I see your point, but in a ranged trading role that sluggishness is less detrimental, and so their 'niche' isnt affected. IS mechs need to get to the fight in a relatively quick timeframe to brawl.

And if your trying to balance for fw, were its very focused on strategy over anything else, the dc is a bit hamstringed by mechs that just cant get into position in time. Clans can nope the f*** out if things turn to crap by just running to a better position faster than the is can react to them. They need a bit more speed, even if they gotta sacrifice some weapons to go fast, itll better, and normalizing max engines means you can through mobility out of the list of downsides the is has, as slower ground speed is seriously detrimentsl to a brawler, which once again, is the best the IS can do atm.

But that is just your personal opinion. Let me explain. I would much rather have a agile heavy mech able to move at around 72 kph than a sluggish heavy mech moving at 87 kph. My reasoning is that once the battle closes in to your average fighting ranges most of the engagement revolves around peek and poke tactics where your sliding out of cover as briefly as possible to deliver fire upon the enemy while attempting to reduce your exposure to enemy fire at the same time. A mech that is agile, with a high acceleration, deceleration and turn rate is going to be much more effective doing this despite its lack of top speed.

A prime example of this was the Kodiak after the engine desync. Kodiak's in general have horrible hitboxes in my opinion. They are very wide and overall big targets with easy identifiable hit boxes which make it very easy to concentrate fire on weakened sections of the enemy to either cripple or kill it. They were extremely powerful not so much due to firepower because there are other mechs with as much or more firepower, The Direwolf for example, but mostly because they could run tweaked at 69 kph and could easily duck and dodge in and out of cover due to the agility boost they got from mounting the 400 XL engine. When Desync happened and the Kodiak's agility went into the toilet, anyone piloting a Kodiak found they just weren't all the competitive because they took way too much fire trying to play the peek and poke game. They still had their ability to run at 69 kph which is extremely fast for a 100 ton mech but because they accelerated, decelerated and turned so slowly after the desync, they couldn't really compete at anywhere near the same levels they used to and most players tossed their Kodiaks on the scrap heap (The OP KDK-3 not included).

Also most Clan pilots will tell you straight up that most Clan mechs are vastly over-engined and many would gladly swap out those larger engines and the top speed that comes along with them for tonnage they could use for more firepower or cooling. In fact a common complaint about the Timber Wolf, the top dog Clan mech for a very long time, was that a 375 XL was way too much engine and unnecessary. I don't think there is one Timber Wolf pilot out there that wouldn't drop the engine size down to a 350 XL in a heartbeat if they could. Also you don't hear of many people complaining about the Night Gyr even though it can only reach 69 kph or around the average speed of an IS heavy with Tweak.

I know I have a wall of text here but I wanted to provide quite a few examples of why Speed is not always greater than Agility. I am not saying that having a higher top speed doesn't provide advantages, I am just saying that having a high agility can be as much or more important that having a high top speed. In fact I would probably argue agility is more important but that is just MY personal opinion.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 08 November 2017 - 04:12 PM.

[Mystere]

Andi Nagasia, on 08 November 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

so in that regard yes Clan Mechs are Faster but often much more Sluggish,
where as IS mechs are Slower but have much better agility and in so more mobility,

JackalBeast, on 08 November 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

Clan mechs for the most part, move like they have molasses in their joints.

JackalBeast, on 08 November 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Short of a few exceptions (linebacker, masc on the sadcat) a Clan mech would need to invest more heartily to achieve a similar agility to its IS equivalent.

Ah, but is a game in which a Timber Wolf is as agile as a slug still "A BattleTech Game"?

Viktor Drake, on 08 November 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Also most Clan pilots will tell you straight up that most Clan mechs are vastly over-engined and many would gladly swap out those larger engines and the top speed that comes along with them for tonnage they could use for more firepower or cooling. In fact a common complaint about the Timber Wolf, the top dog Clan mech for a very long time, was that a 375 XL was way too much engine and unnecessary. I don't think there is one Timber Wolf pilot out there that wouldn't drop the engine size down to a 350 XL in a heartbeat if they could.

See what I mean?

Edited by Mystere, 08 November 2017 - 04:34 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Viktor Drake, on 08 November 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

Also you don't hear of many people complaining about the Night Gyr even though it can only reach 69 kph or around the average speed of an IS heavy with Tweak.

Night Gyr complains reporting in. This thing cant walk, and turn, and twist, and is reduced to super-lurm boat by the majority of players. Though I once saw a guy in uac5 NTG who actualy performed very well but that's an exception.

Also Nova Cats have the same syndrome to a bit lesser extent. But they compensate suckiness in mobility by being wide.

[Andi Nagasia]

Mystere, on 08 November 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

Ah, but is a game in which a Timber Wolf is as agile as a slug still "A BattleTech Game"?

why wouldnt it be?
does having a Sluggish TBR, make it not a BattleTech game?
is having an Agile TBR one of the Prerequisites for a BattleTech game?
if so i guess HBS's BattleTech wont be a BattleTech Game as it wont have TBRs,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 08 November 2017 - 05:20 PM.

[Mystere]

Andi Nagasia, on 08 November 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

why wouldnt it be?
does having a Sluggish TBR, make it not a BattleTech game?
is having an Agile TBR one of the Prerequisites for a BattleTech game?

The most iconic mech of the IP, the signature design of the Clan's military might, became so because it moves like a slug?

Andi Nagasia, on 08 November 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

if so i guess HBS's BattleTech wont be a BattleTech Game as it wont have TBRs,

Don't be so daft. You know fully well that the HBS game is in an earlier era.

Edited by Mystere, 08 November 2017 - 06:15 PM.

[Nightbird]

For the same tonnage, clans are faster, cooler, have more DPS and also higher alpha. IS have... more HP. So make like a pinata and take it

[LordNothing]

i like to think the mobility is an artifact of clanxl and on some mechs forced full jump jets on omnis (an is pilot would use the tonnage on other things). is still have better light mechs, with how many clan lights are locked on terrible engines.

but when you start looking at various traits you find that clan does it better. speed, mobility, firepower, cooling, lasers, hardpoint count, equipment size, uogrades and so on. meanwhile is has quirks and more armor. is needs more things its good at. in lore its numbers, but thats not represented here at all.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 November 2017 - 06:31 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

No one ever brings up the insane mobility clanners have,

maybe because it was brought up and clans got a big fat mobility nerf?

Quote

is having an Agile TBR one of the Prerequisites for a BattleTech game?

its a prerequisite if you have timberwolves in the game

the timberwolf is supposed to be a very lithe and agile mech.

if its not, its not a timberwolf

considering the timberwolf still has !@#$ing negative quirks, its agility shouldve been left damn well alone

Quote

For the same tonnage, clans are faster, cooler, have more DPS and also higher alpha. IS have... more HP. So make like a pinata and take it

IS have better agility and better PPFLD too. better weapon quirks too but theyre pretty much a wash with the better clan weapons.

but yeah the big issue is the difference in how many heatsinks clans can have vs IS. ISDHS should be better than CDHS because they take up 3 crit slots not 2. ISDHS should be at least 1.8/1.8 instead of 1.5/1.5

buffing ISDHS to at least 1.8 would go a long way to helping balance the two tech bases.

Edited by Khobai, 08 November 2017 - 06:59 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

Ladies, try to stay on topic rather than go down the typical slippery slope of "waaaghh" clan mechs. Some of y'all are like broken records. tic tic tic .....tic tic tic.....tic tic tic..... Oh hey like my post coz I said the same crap I say on every single thread!

[Angel of Annihilation]

Nema Nabojiv, on 08 November 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

Night Gyr complains reporting in. This thing cant walk, and turn, and twist, and is reduced to super-lurm boat by the majority of players. Though I once saw a guy in uac5 NTG who actualy performed very well but that's an exception.

Also Nova Cats have the same syndrome to a bit lesser extent. But they compensate suckiness in mobility by being wide.

But the issue is the agility, not the speed right? That is my point. The Night Gyr was exceptionally powerful even at 64-69 kph prior to the Engine Desync, after the Desync when it was saddled with the same agility as some 95 ton Assault mechs, not so much. It is still decent but because it handles like a brick, it can't perform near its potential. I believe if you asked any Night Gyr pilot what he would rather have, an extra 10 kph or normal agility for a 75 ton heavy and most would answer, agility.

[naterist]

Viktor Drake, on 08 November 2017 - 06:55 PM, said:

But the issue is the agility, not the speed right? That is my point. The Night Gyr was exceptionally powerful even at 64-69 kph prior to the Engine Desync, after the Desync when it was saddled with the same agility as some 95 ton Assault mechs, not so much. It is still decent but because it handles like a brick, it can't perform near its potential. I believe if you asked any Night Gyr pilot what he would rather have, an extra 10 kph or normal agility for a 75 ton heavy and most would answer, agility.

It wouldnt be too farfetched for some clsn agility to be buffed, if is top possible speed is increased. Mobility should not be a factor in a fps unless it comes with specific trade offs. Right now thrir saying, "well is moves molasses slow in tabletop compared to clan, so lets make that built in to the game, but thats silly if your also putting in a mechlab with its own set of values that achieve 'balance.' Why does it need to be like that, its silly. If you want to use your mechlab weight to go a certain speed you should be able too.

As for clan agility nerfs in general, ive noticed on both the kdk3 and the night gyr that theres a certain point of slugishness were people stop using it. Up until that point people dont care about the agility because its msnageable... up until the tipping point tbe kodiak and night gyr crossed, but that seems less due to balance than it did the fact that those mechs were the only mechs that could run rediculously OP builds for that timeframe of the game, and pgi decided to nerf the chassis instead of fix the underlying issue. Now that the meta has moved on from that, they havent un-nerfed it in response to those specific builds not being OP AF anymore.

That seems to happened several times to several mechs in the past, and due to clan build rules and values, they just hsve it happen to them a lot.

[Jackal Noble]

Viktor Drake, on 08 November 2017 - 06:55 PM, said:

But the issue is the agility, not the speed right? That is my point. The Night Gyr was exceptionally powerful even at 64-69 kph prior to the Engine Desync, after the Desync when it was saddled with the same agility as some 95 ton Assault mechs, not so much. It is still decent but because it handles like a brick, it can't perform near its potential. I believe if you asked any Night Gyr pilot what he would rather have, an extra 10 kph or normal agility for a 75 ton heavy and most would answer, agility.

https://mwomercs.com...-2017/#gameplay
* under equipment and weapon changes

Well that and the June patch saw the Night Gyr and Marauder IIC recieve blanket nerfs to it's yaw and pitch. It's yaw is very similar to that of the Kodiak. Turns like crap, but can still be lethal granted your enemy doesn't get in close to ya - An Atlas would outmaneuver it lol.

For whatever reason, never used them a whole lot, Stalkers seem pretty damn sluggish (54 KPH aside)