53 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

I heard about buffs to standard structure to make ferro more attractive.

But why not do it with things that actually were available fluff wise, there are experimental structures which were available for years now.

Namely
1)reinforced structure - available to comstar since 3057 and ghost bears since 3060.
How it would work?? double amount of structure on mechs and add -15% crit chance receiving quirk while increasing structure weight by 100% at no slot cost

and

2)composite structure - available to davion since 3061
How it would work?? halves amount of structure on mechs while halving weight at no slot cost.

Suddenly you have free crits to put ferro on instead of defaulting into endo or you can sacrifice tonnage and put extra tankiness.

Also while were at it hardened armor was available since 3047 for fedcom and since 3061 to ghost bears, reflective armor was availble since 3058 for steiners and 3061 to falcons and reactive armor since 3063 to draconic and since 3065 to ghost bears

Edited by davoodoo, 10 November 2017 - 08:16 AM.

[Mcgral18]

So, keep Standard Structure worthless because they can add another Cbill sink?


Nah, make STD structure viable instead.

[Khobai]

yep make standard structure viable instead

everything in the game should have a purpose or it shouldnt be in the game

[Brain Cancer]

davoodoo, on 10 November 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

I heard about buffs to standard structure to make ferro more attractive.

But why not do it with things that actually were available fluff wise, there are experimental structures which were available for years now.

Namely
1)reinforced structure - available to comstar since 3057 and ghost bears since 3060.
How it would work?? double amount of structure on mechs and add -15% crit chance receiving quirk while increasing structure weight by 100% at no slot cost

and

2)composite structure - available to davion since 3061
How it would work?? halves amount of structure on mechs while halving weight at no slot cost.

Suddenly you have free crits to put ferro on instead of defaulting into endo or you can sacrifice tonnage and put extra tankiness.

Also while were at it hardened armor was available since 3047 for fedcom and since 3061 to ghost bears, reflective armor was availble since 3058 for steiners and 3061 to falcons and reactive armor since 3063 to draconic and since 3065 to ghost bears

Yep. You'd even have a VIP Escort Atlas be buildable in MWO that way. No guns, reinforced structure, hardened armor. And there'd be a lot of funbuilds with people using stuff like composite to maximize available tonnage without stressing crit-starved chassis.

Mcgral18, on 10 November 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

So, keep Standard Structure worthless because they can add another Cbill sink?


Nah, make STD structure viable instead.

Honestly, having a reduced crit chance for standard structure wouldn't be a bad change (and a slightly increased chance for endosteel). Take a baseline and:

Reinforced: -15% crit/crit damage
Standard: -5% crit/crit damage
Endosteel: +5% crit/crit damage
(Endo-composite): +10% crit/crit damage)
Composite: +15% crit/crit damage

[Jay Leon Hart]

Brain Cancer, on 10 November 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

Honestly, having a reduced crit chance for standard structure wouldn't be a bad change (and a slightly increased chance for endosteel). Take a baseline and:

Standard: -5% crit/crit damage

I agree, reduced crit chance for STD structure seems like a good alternative to just buffing structure values, plus it increases the usefulness of structure buffs by making your equipment safer. I wouldn't want an increased crit chance for Endo though, may as well just add the difference as a buff to STD.

[Khobai]

IS endosteel doesnt need to be worse either

to make IS STD structure compete with endosteel youd have to give it at least a +30% structure bonus

Edited by Khobai, 10 November 2017 - 09:19 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Jay Leon Hart, on 10 November 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

I agree, reduced crit chance for STD structure seems like a good alternative to just buffing structure values, plus it increases the usefulness of structure buffs by making your equipment safer. I wouldn't want an increased crit chance for Endo though, may as well just add the difference as a buff to STD.

Endosteel being +0% with Endo-comp being +5%/Comp +10% works too.

Rather than bruteforcing damage absorption into structure choices, resistances seem better to me.

[davoodoo]

Mcgral18, on 10 November 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

So, keep Standard Structure worthless because they can add another Cbill sink?


Nah, make STD structure viable instead.

So std structure on 100 tonner weighs 10 tons and offers 312 hp total with 62 on ct.

Compared to other options
1)reinforced, 20 tons weight, 614 hp total with 124 on ct.
2)composite, 5 tons wieight, 166hp total, 31 on ct
3)endo steel, 5 tons weights, 14 crits occupied, 312hp total 62 on ct

So lets see
1)mere 10 tons or 10% total weight as drawback
2)single alpha to the back can blow you up, not to mention 16% reduction to total hp
3)14 crits, thing which is already skipped on laservomit in favor of light ferro to give more space for dhs

I mean sure, these are just minor drawbacks.

On the other hand i saw proposals for 12% extra structure for std structure as a way to make it viable which equals mere 4% extra hp.
Hell even 30% extra structure proposed above will only be 10% extra hp.
5% less crits will offer even less.

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 09:05 AM, said:

yep make standard structure viable instead

everything in the game should have a purpose or it shouldnt be in the game

yes, thats why you should be agreeing to it the most

finally well have a funnel for assault tonnage without giving them more firepower...

Edited by davoodoo, 10 November 2017 - 09:40 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

On the other hand i saw proposals for 12% extra structure for std structure as a way to make it viable which equals mere 4% extra hp.

nah 30% is where it breaks even as far as tonnage goes.

endosteel structure + std armor = save 5 tons on a 100 ton mech
-vs-
standard structure +30% = worth 3 tons on a 100 ton mech + ferro fibrous armor = save ~2 tons on a 100 ton mech

both are worth around 5 tons then on a 100 ton mech


and also you have to balance "combinations"

for example you cant just balance endo vs std structure

you have to balance endo + Std armor vs standard structure + ferro

since youre going to also take ferro if you use standard structure

the 6 combinations that need to be balanced are:
endo + ferro
endo + light ferro
endo + std arm
std str + std arm
std str + ferro
std str + light ferro

all 6 of those combinations should have advantages and drawbacks that make them roughly equal

Edited by Khobai, 10 November 2017 - 09:52 AM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

nah 30% is where it breaks even as far as tonnage goes.

endosteel structure + std armor = save 5 tons on a 100 ton mech
-vs-
standard structure +30% = worth 3 tons on a 100 ton mech + ferro fibrous armor = save ~2 tons on a 100 ton mech

both are worth around 5 tons then on a 100 ton mech

Only when you consider that ppl will necessarily take either endo or ferro.

But nowadays you skip endo on laservomit in favor of LFF which occupies slots which wouldnt be used by dhs anyway.
These mechs get free buff of 10% total hp.
Like this guy
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bbf257aeda91f8c

std should be middle ground, then you get a choice whether you want more tonnage or hp.
hp?? reinforced
tonnage?? endo or composite
endo if you can spare crits
composite if you can spare hp

kgc wont ever use composite because it would be suicide, it can however spend crits on endo or mount std structure and LFF for lesser gains

On the other hand we can get our favorite dakkamech which will gladly take composite and ferro fill itself to the brim with firepower.

But theres also atlas which cant really take reasonable amount of firepower because hardpoints and ghost heat, so itll at least take reinforced and be more tanky.

Finally you standard laser poky mech wont take composite because that would be suicide at 400m optimal range and instead theyll opt out for middle ground std structure and lff.

Everything got its use.

Edited by davoodoo, 10 November 2017 - 09:58 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Mcgral18, on 10 November 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

So, keep Standard Structure worthless because they can add another Cbill sink?


Nah, make STD structure viable instead.

like 1pt structure for each component of per 5t mech? thast 20 for an assault. 4 for a 20t light (which never is going to use it anyways)

Edited by Lily from animove, 10 November 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

nah 30% is where it breaks even as far as tonnage goes.

endosteel structure + std armor = save 5 tons on a 100 ton mech
-vs-
standard structure +30% = worth 3 tons on a 100 ton mech + ferro fibrous armor = save ~2 tons on a 100 ton mech

both are worth around 5 tons then on a 100 ton mech


and also you have to balance "combinations"

for example you cant just balance endo vs std structure

you have to balance endo + Std armor vs standard structure + ferro

since youre going to also take ferro if you use standard structure

It probably shouldn't break completely even in weight since you also have the 14 crits to consider as a cost, the IS upgrades also needs to be worth the 7 extra crits.

Otherwise completely agree, if it doesn't have a niche where it's the optimal choice it shouldn't be in the game. Standard heatsinks, standard structure etc (as well as IS tech as a whole of course) all need to be changed so this becomes true.

[Khobai]

Quote

Only when you consider that ppl will necessarily take either endo or ferro.

no the approach I would take is to balance all 6 combinations equally

so it doesnt matter what combination of endo, ferro, light ferro, standard, etc... you take, every combination would work out to be roughly equal

Quote

It probably shouldn't break completely even in weight since you also have the 14 crits to consider as a cost, the IS upgrades also needs to be worth the 7 extra crits.

thats true. but then you also have to consider that a lot of the structure bonus is being applied to locations where its not particularly useful like arms or legs or head. 30% might not even be enough.

Quote

the IS upgrades also needs to be worth the 7 extra crits.

they already are worth it. people use IS endo.

you cant really touch the stats on IS endo/ferro too much anyway because youd screw up stock builds.

the problem isnt that they arnt worth using for IS. its that clans get an advantage from theirs being better. its probably better to use things like quirks to address that imbalance. Or to make ISDHS better than CDHS to make up for the crit slot shortage.

Edited by Khobai, 10 November 2017 - 10:03 AM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

no the approach I would take is to balance all 6 combinations equally

so it doesnt matter what combination of endo, ferro, light ferro, standard, etc... you take, every combination would work out to be roughly equal

I given you example, mech which wouldnt take endo because it cant spare crits, now gets free buff while btw its also a heavy mech with "too much firepower"

You balanced anything?

Tbh light ferro did better job at encouraging standard than any buff to standard would ever do.

Edited by davoodoo, 10 November 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

thats true. but then you also have to consider that a lot of the structure bonus is being applied to locations where its not particularly useful like arms or legs or head.

The cost of those crits is that you can't take ferro + endo on most IS mechs, while all clan bettlemechs take both easily, so it's still a significant cost that restrains your options. On some mechs it's more significant such as Annihilator which can't fit endo with LFE and big ballistics with enough ammo, like the 6AC5, LFE300 build caps at a meager 7 ammo because the endo is so large. So yeah, in some cases the crits are kind of insignificant but in others they are very significant, I think the balance has to be around the 14 crits being a significant cost.

[Khobai]

Quote

The cost of those crits is that you can't take ferro + endo on most IS mechs, while all clan bettlemechs take both easily,

yes i understand that. but you cant really change the crit slots on IS ferro or endo without messing up stock builds.

Im not saying IS mechs shouldnt be compensated for their ferro/endo taking up more crit slots. Its just rather than screwing up stockbuilds I think quirks and making ISDHS better than CDHS is a better approach. Like make ISDHS 1.8-2.0 instead of 1.5

I also think hand actuators should be removable on IS mechs. theyre pointless and just waste crit slots for no reason. They might need to rework some variants as a result of that, but I think freeing up wasted crit slots is more beneficial in the long run.

Quote

I given you example, mech which wouldnt take endo because it cant spare crits, now gets free buff while btw its also a heavy mech with "too much firepower"

its not a "free buff" its giving up the opportunity cost of not having extra tonnage from using endo in exchange for a structure buff from standard structure. Thats a choice, not a free buff.

and like I said in the other thread, I think each weight class should have its own unique skill tree, so each weight class can be balanced independently of the other weight classes. That way if they want to weaken overpowered heavies slightly without it affecting mediums or assault mechs, they can do that.

Edited by Khobai, 10 November 2017 - 10:19 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

yes i understand that. but you cant really change the crit slots on IS ferro or endo without messing up stock builds.

Im not saying IS mechs shouldnt be compensated for their ferro/endo taking up more crit slots. Its just rather than screwing up stockbuilds I think quirks and making ISDHS better than CDHS is a better approach. Like make ISDHS 1.8-2.0 instead of 1.5

I also think hand actuators should be removable on IS mechs. theyre pointless and just waste crit slots for no reason. They might need to rework some variants as a result of that, but I think freeing up wasted crit slots is more beneficial in the long run.



its not a "free buff" its giving up the opportunity cost of not having extra tonnage from using endo

then I would say as before give 1hp/5tons to struture hp for STD structure, and on IS side give another buff which either lowers chance to get critted, or add another 2HP to internlcomponents making destroying stuff harder.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

IS endosteel doesnt need to be worse either

to make IS STD structure compete with endosteel youd have to give it at least a +30% structure bonus

Bad idea.
It will benefit pretty much assaults only because there are some cases when you dont take endo anyway, and in addition to that they have the highest structure hp. Mediums and most heavies have no choice but to take endo meaning they will start to suck more in comparison.

[Khobai]

Quote

then I would say as before give 1hp/5tons to struture hp for STD structure, and on IS side give another buff which either lowers chance to get critted, or add another 2HP to internlcomponents making destroying stuff harder

yeah im completely on board with a structure bonus for STD structure.

Quote

Bad idea.
It will benefit pretty much assaults only because there are some cases when you dont take endo anyway, and in addition to that they have the highest structure hp. Mediums and most heavies have no choice but to take endo meaning they will start to suck more in comparison.

its meant to benefit assaults only

not every combination is going to benefit every mech

but there should be a combination that every mech benefits from and thats fine as long as all the combinations are pretty much equal.

like IS mechs generally only take both ferro and endo on lights... they dont do it on assaults. where assaults might now consider taking standard structure + light ferro/ferro for the structure bonus. different combinations for different mechs.

Quote

Mediums and most heavies have no choice but to take endo meaning they will start to suck more in comparison.

heavies (the clan ones in particular) are already overpowered thats a non-issue. its the best weight class by a huge margin.

mediums on the other hand I would just give a flat 10% speed bonus. because mediums dont go fast enough compared to heavies. but there should be unique skill trees for each weight class, and mediums should get +10% extra speed out of speed tweak for example.

its unbalanced that you have both mediums and heavies going 81kph when the mediums carry 30% less weapons and armor. the mediums should at least go a little faster to make up for having less firepower and armor.

I think weight class specific skill trees are an important thing for PGI to add though to help bring parity back to the weight classes.

Edited by Khobai, 10 November 2017 - 10:33 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

its meant to benefit assaults only

not every combination is going to benefit every mech

If you buff some class that automatically means the other classes will become less viable because that's the nature of competitive game. Do we really need mediums to be less viable than they are now? I personally dont think so.