68 replies to this topic

[Razorfish]

Dakota1000, on 13 November 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Assaults need the ability to torso twist quickly again. No amount of armor quirks PGI adds will make up for not being able to so easily make my Atlas's arms absorb the damage they once did. With Clan HLLs taking 1.55 seconds and CERMLs nerfed to 1.25 seconds of duration being able to just spread damage would heavily reduce their effectiveness.

Wish we were back when the Dakka meta, laser vomit meta, and gauss+ppc meta were all relatively balanced with eachother.

Great Point!

Rampage, on 13 November 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

The Clan Heavy lasers are the problem. Their introduction followed the laser adjustments and badly inflated the amount of damage that Clan laser vomit is capable of. Their long cooldown times and massive damage just contributes to the Alpha Warrior hide and peek strat.

Laser vomit has always been an issue, but you are correct, it wasn’t completely way out of control until heavy lasers were introduced.




Clan hard point bloat is another issue. The average IS mech has half the hard points that a comparable clam mech has.



Please nerf Laser Vomit.

[Khobai]

when assaults could torso twist people complained they were way too agile

now they cant torso twist people complain theyre not agile enough lol

but yeah assaults need to be more survivable... if not by restoring their torso twist, then by some other means.


and heavy lasers on their own arnt really the problem. the problem is the fact you can fire 6 CERML and 2 HLL and even 2 gauss if you want without any ghost heat whatsoever.

link large lasers, medium lasers, and gauss in the same ghost heat group, then the problem is gone.

Quote

Another big thing is range, and unless ERLL/ERPPC/GRs get massively nerfed to uselessness, we will always see people using them.

I agree weapons having too much range is also a problem. But thats easily fixed by adding a damage penalty to weapons fired beyond optimum range if you dont have a sensor lock.

If you get a sensor lock, you deserve to do damage beyond optimum range. But if you cant get a sensor lock your damage beyond optimum range should take a massive hit (say -30% to -50% penalty).

It almost like it makes sensors matter or something. you could even give assaults and heavies less sensor range. and then mediums and lights would matter more for having better sensors. like the beginnings of role warfare.

Edited by Khobai, 13 November 2017 - 06:05 PM.

[Troa Barton]

Rampage, on 13 November 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

The Clan Heavy lasers are the problem. Their introduction followed the laser adjustments and badly inflated the amount of damage that Clan laser vomit is capable of. Their long cooldown times and massive damage just contributes to the Alpha Warrior hide and peek strat.

Sorry have to disagree, I've been running tests to see which has better Time to Kill (TTK) LPLs and MLs are still king.
Heavy lasers trade burst for DOT The initial strike may hit harder but to actually down an opponent quickly you want pulses instead.

In short Heavy lasers are surprisingly well balanced.

[lazorbeamz]

Rampage, on 13 November 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

The Clan Heavy lasers are the problem. Their introduction followed the laser adjustments and badly inflated the amount of damage that Clan laser vomit is capable of. Their long cooldown times and massive damage just contributes to the Alpha Warrior hide and peek strat.

Not really, but the heavy lasers have underlined this porblem.

I dropped MWO a couple years ago and when i left i remember that laser vomit was a big thing. I came back this october and we still play mechwarrior alpha strike laser warrior online.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 13 November 2017 - 11:41 PM.

[Joey Tankblaster]

lazorbeamz, on 13 November 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

Not really, but the heavy lasers have underlined this porblem.

I dropped MWO a couple years ago and when i left i remember that laser vomit was a big thing. I came back this october and we still play mechwarrior alpha strike laser warrior online.

He is right. The clan heavy large laser is a problem. 2xHLL, 4xERML is a very solid build and can be equipped on even mediums (HBK-IICA) and very comfortable on heavies (Hellbringer). 64 point alpha.

What we need is a change to the ghost heat groups to adjust this power creep and inflation of laser vomit damage.

[Wolfways]

lazorbeamz, on 13 November 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

The only reasonable meta is brawling and dakka meta. Brawling and autocannons require weapons with trashy slow flying projectiles. They should compensate for it with hugely better damage values, heat values etc. Hitscan is too much of an advantage in itself already. Laser damage should seriously be cut by 25 % easily and they will be balanced still.

Yeah, that's why mechs with AC's aren't priority targets and the high dps, low heat Jagermech isn't op...
AC's already put out a crapload of damage. They don't need a buff.

But all ammo using weapons need a big ammo/ton increase.

Edited by Wolfways, 14 November 2017 - 03:45 AM.

[Rakshasa]

Lasers as bolts instead of beams. Cone of fire with visual cue dependent on speed instead of PPFLD and "press W to move." Heat penalties. Ability to crouch/extend arms. Missiles firing smaller numbers of higher-damage munitions rather than cluster swarms. Melee.

None of these things will happen even if the engine could handle them and the devs had the time, but if you wanted to mix up the meta? Just saying.

[lazorbeamz]

Mole, on 13 November 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

Pretty much this. Unless I'm already heavily damaged any laser vomit 'mech I get close enough to bring a pile of SRMs or a UAC/20 or some other heavy-hitting brawler weapon to bear on is pretty much toast unless he's being backed up by his team mates, and if you're engaging more than one or two targets at a time in a brawl by yourself then I'm sorry to say that laser vomit being powerful is less of an issue than your lack of tactical prowess.

Thats not true really. The diffirence between laser vomit cancer builds and specialised brawlers point blank isnt that great.

For example
---------------
hellbringer 2xHeavy large 4 er Med
sustained dps 4.7
-----------------
brawlers:

RGH-2A
UAC10, MRM30, 2xmed las
sustained dps 5.56

EBJ-D
2xcUAC10, 2xer medlas
sustained dps 5.7
---------------------------------------

So you are getting a ~25% dps increase but when you get into brawling you are already missing a couple of side torsos because hitscan alpha strikes at 400m.

Clan DHS spam in particular makes clan lasers a brawler's choice with an added option of poking.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 14 November 2017 - 05:02 AM.

[CK16]

Sure, boring meta anyways and always a lazy man's gimmick at saying they are good.

But in all honesty all they have to do is tie Meds and Large Lasers together for Ghost Heat and it will be fine, should be like that anyway imo....really anything to curb alpha Warrior online.

[Mole]

lazorbeamz, on 14 November 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

Thats not true really. The diffirence between laser vomit cancer builds and specialised brawlers point blank isnt that great.

For example
---------------
hellbringer 2xHeavy large 4 er Med
sustained dps 4.7
-----------------
brawlers:

RGH-2A
UAC10, MRM30, 2xmed las
sustained dps 5.56

EBJ-D
2xcUAC10, 2xer medlas
sustained dps 5.7
---------------------------------------

So you are getting a ~25% dps increase but when you get into brawling you are already missing a couple of side torsos because hitscan alpha strikes at 400m.

Clan DHS spam in particular makes clan lasers a brawler's choice with an added option of poking.

I don't give a damn what a laser vomit 'mech's DPS is. The fact of the matter is that if I am using SRMs or large bore autocannons my damage will be delivered instantly and to whatever component I hit and the laser boat must keep his lasers on target for a full beam duration, which is easy enough to spread around. You can vomit numbers at me all you want, but so long as it does not come along with the understanding that many if not most pilots have issue holding something like a Heavy Large Laser on target for an entire 1.55 seconds when the enemy is in their face and twisting then your numbers don't really mean much.

[adamts01]

Cone of fire

[Jun Watarase]

Long duration lasers are easily countered by torso twisting and using your OP shield arms to block the shots.

Short duration lasers cant be countered by anything but FLD, because the burn finishes before the target can torso twist (as the target would be using longer duration lasers/burst fire UACs).

That 64 point alpha will spread damage everywhere and take more than 5s to cycle, which is sufficient time to negate the range advantage and then start beating the clan mech with no durability quirks into pieces. But when you have a 12 man firing line, closing the range gap is obviously difficult.

[Methanoid]

on a great many mechs, equipping lasers en mass is pretty much all that either works or can fit.

[Steve Pryde]

lazorbeamz, on 14 November 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

Thats not true really. The diffirence between laser vomit cancer builds and specialised brawlers point blank isnt that great.

For example
---------------
hellbringer 2xHeavy large 4 er Med
sustained dps 4.7
-----------------
brawlers:

RGH-2A
UAC10, MRM30, 2xmed las
sustained dps 5.56

EBJ-D
2xcUAC10, 2xer medlas
sustained dps 5.7
---------------------------------------

So you are getting a ~25% dps increase but when you get into brawling you are already missing a couple of side torsos because hitscan alpha strikes at 400m.

Clan DHS spam in particular makes clan lasers a brawler's choice with an added option of poking.

Do u even play the game? It's not all about useless numbers in mechlab. And btw, uacs aren't brawling weapons. Brawling means boating SRMs(+standard ACs/LBXs). Now u can shoot and instantly twist your torso to spread the laservomit beam to uselessness while your alphastrike hits where u want to. And normally I'm nearly fresh when I got in brawling range, it's all about knowing the map and positioning.

[Mole]

Steve Pryde, on 14 November 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

Do u even play the game? It's not all about useless numbers in mechlab. And btw, uacs aren't brawling weapons. Brawling means boating SRMs(+standard ACs/LBXs). Now u can shoot and instantly twist your torso to spread the laservomit beam to uselessness while your alphastrike hits where u want to. And normally I'm nearly fresh when I got in brawling range, it's all about knowing the map and positioning.

He does but I think at this point he's grasping at straws to justify his potatoitude. I mean honestly, is laser vomit even really the meta right now? I don't even know what the meta is. I feel like I see pretty even distribution of dakka, laser vomit, and missile boating with nothing particularly sticking out as overly powerful since PGI broke Gauss/PPC. The laser vomit meta relied heavily on ERMLs and CSPLs, both of which have recieved very hefty wallops from the nerf bat recently.

[Methanoid]

Mole, on 14 November 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

He does but I think at this point he's grasping at straws to justify his potatoitude. I mean honestly, is laser vomit even really the meta right now? I don't even know what the meta is. I feel like I see pretty even distribution of dakka, laser vomit, and missile boating with nothing particularly sticking out as overly powerful since PGI broke Gauss/PPC. The laser vomit meta relied heavily on ERMLs and CSPLs, both of which have recieved very hefty wallops from the nerf bat recently.

Now when you mention meta, do you mean quickplay matches or the FP matches where all the cool kids hang out, if its FP then i deffo wouldnt know as i utterly dispise it, but if you mean QP i dont think there is a meta, your observation of a fairly large mix is probably down to everyone just leveling new stuff. I feel this is the case as in my own situation the mechs i like i dont actually use much or at all because i spend more time in leveling new stuff (plus im a casual that rarely plays) i end up not liking but grind that mech to full skill points anyways.

[Mole]

Methanoid, on 14 November 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

Now when you mention meta, do you mean quickplay matches or the FP matches where all the cool kids hang out, if its FP then i deffo wouldnt know as i utterly dispise it, but if you mean QP i dont think there is a meta, your observation of a fairly large mix is probably down to everyone just leveling new stuff. I feel this is the case as in my own situation the mechs i like i dont actually use much or at all because i spend more time in leveling new stuff (plus im a casual that rarely plays) i end up not liking but grind that mech to full skill points anyways.

I am talking about quick play but I don't feel like that's an excuse to not know what the meta is. When there has been a powerful meta in the past, that meta has always been well-represented in every game mode. I do know that SRM brawlers dominate in scouting at the moment but in other game modes I don't really see a clear-cut meta.

[LordNothing]

N0ni, on 13 November 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

The thing about IS reflective armor is that sure you'll make clan laser vomit more situational, but the more people that field it... you're also nerfing IS mechs either with majority or NOTHING BUT energy hardpoints.

How many IS mechs have either a majority of energy HPs or all energy HPs? Honestly, too many to count. One thing is certain, it'd make you regret choosing the HBK-4P(S) as your prize.

Kind of a double-edged sword, like doing a ditch turn.

good thing i took the crow then.

thing is if you give it to everyone its going to not be very useful. but if you only give it to is (it was initially is tech, then falcon got it a few years later, but thats well before the current point in the timeline), clan doesnt need major laser nerfs. they are going to have to pack other weapons in order to handle the mirror shiny bots. is laser vomit alphas are kind of pathetic when compared to clan in both damage and range, and i dont think they need a similar counter, especially if clan gets it with half the slot usage (is reflective armor is 10 slots, so i figure the clan version would be 5).

also the omni rules in mwo would prevent clan from equiping it on anything but battlemechs unless there was an omni with reflective armor stock, and if there were it would be quickly recognized by is ballistic boats. then again i dont think it would be that great against is mechs, as many of them pack ballistics or missile weapons, and there are a lot of viable mixed builds on the is side.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 November 2017 - 02:00 PM.

[Cizjut]

Khobai, on 13 November 2017 - 12:20 PM, said:

thats why a lot of games give players the tools to counter-meta

like if MWO had reflective armor, ablative armor, blue shield, etc... then players could use defensive tech to counter whatever weapon is meta... which would force the meta to constantly evolve. you wouldnt just have one stale meta then.

im not saying thats the approach MWO should take, just that its the approach other games have taken. I mean there are downsides to adding those defensive techs to the game. it potentially adds a rock paper scissors element to the game that can be frustrating. nobody wants to be the guy with lasers when the whole enemy team has reflective armor. hard counters suck.

I think defensive techs as soft counters rather than hard counters could work though. Im generally against hard counters but soft counters are fine. so instead of reflective armor reducing laser damage by 50%, maybe only make it reduce it by 20%-30%.

I agree with this post in the fact that most games have defensive options to certain stuff as well. All sniping could be easily counterable with smoke grenades, blinding shots or reflective armor, all of these which aren't ingame and seem to not be a priority.

[Bonzai VI]

lazorbeamz, on 14 November 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

Thats not true really. The diffirence between laser vomit cancer builds and specialised brawlers point blank isnt that great.

For example
---------------
hellbringer 2xHeavy large 4 er Med
sustained dps 4.7
-----------------
brawlers:

RGH-2A
UAC10, MRM30, 2xmed las
sustained dps 5.56

EBJ-D
2xcUAC10, 2xer medlas
sustained dps 5.7
---------------------------------------

So you are getting a ~25% dps increase but when you get into brawling you are already missing a couple of side torsos because hitscan alpha strikes at 400m.

Clan DHS spam in particular makes clan lasers a brawler's choice with an added option of poking.

Edit: The builds you posted are for poking/trading since you've got less CD than the enemy and can chase him a bit to shoot once more.


Okay, I've now read through 3 pages of (almost) pure bullshittery and this really isn't getting any better.

How bout you stop forgetting that heat exists.
The mechlab is very bugged, the sustained dps doesn't mean anything.

BTW, since when are MRM's or UACs meant for brawling? They've got duration.
How bout you take a real brawler?

Warhammer with 2 LBX-20?
Shadowhawk with AC20+3SRM4 with massive cooldown quirks?
Roughneck with an LBX+3SRM6?

Are you even in the slightest aware what will happen with the Clan 'Mech that equips heavy large and MLs?
The Clan 'Mech will have a downtime of ~7 seconds after dealing ~60-80 dmg (that is horrendously spread and maybe has effective damage of ~20-30) and then being at 90% heat since he produces ~57 heat. (2HLL+4ERML)

The brawler will shoot, deal ~40-50 dmg and his downtime will be around 3-4 seconds, depending on quirks and skill nodes, while producing 10 heat (2 LBX-20), 15 heat (AC20+3SRM4) or 14 heat (LBX-10+3SRM6).

Maybe the Laser build will be able to shoot once more, increasing his effective damage to ~50-60. And then he's dead while the brawler lost a bit of paint. (Pure dramatic effect, of course it's not that easy)
With this, you can effectively trade half the armor (only counting CT and STs) of a 55 ton mech vs a 85 ton mech. Maybe less, maybe more. Doesn't matter my point stands.


Or is the problem that you can't oneshot people when carrying brawler equipment? Maybe take a 'Mech that has the right hitboxes for brawling and not a Cicada next time?

Stop talking about balance if you are not capable of viewing things objectively.

Edited by Bonzai VI, 14 November 2017 - 03:30 PM.