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Er Vomit Meta, Someone Explain Please...


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#1 CK16

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 07:48 AM

Ok, maybe I am bit a bit salty herr of getting out traded by the ER LL poking Battlemasters and Grasshoppers...but!

But can someone explain how this meta rips me and my unit apart? Even trading at 1300m or so the damage I take in is just, it doesn't add up and match the math one would figure. I mean at that range even if they alpha you, it still should be hitting what I would assume is like 6 to 12 damage, yet seeing my ST cored out in 2 volleys (on my Nova Cats and Hellbringers...) from a single Battlemaster/Grasshopper. Just something doesn't add up here at the ammount of damage I am taking in. This just feels lopsided ,trades feel in possible to win right now(still laugh at the whole Clans range advantage....can't out poke them and out trade them really....even if pulling more numbers hardly phases them, oh also never seeing them shut down after alphaing all day it seems, where I can hardly get 2 alphas of only 4 lasers before red lining out.)

Ugh, I don't want the ER for either side nerfed but damn does the IS feel stronger in FW then clans at the long range game when lasers are brought in.

Edited by CK16, 20 November 2017 - 07:53 AM.


#2 MCY Xale

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 07:59 AM

View PostCK16, on 20 November 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

Ugh, I don't want the ER for either side nerfed but damn does the IS feel stronger in FW then clans at the long range game when lasers are brought in.

An odd observation, seeing as Clans are strictly superior here with greater optimal range and a higher volley damage. The burn duration is slightly longer; but the damage per 'tick' still favours Clan.

The difference you're observing most likely comes from poor focus; you're spreading your damage out between various torso components, while letting yourself get focused on a single component.

Edited by MCY Xale, 20 November 2017 - 07:59 AM.


#3 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:01 AM

10% range quirks + 10 15% range from firepower tree + focused fire.

Even with the boosted range clan vomit outtrades it, but you literally can't out trade 2 people shooting the same spot.

IS is still worse but teamwork and pre-drop planning is OP.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 20 November 2017 - 08:36 AM.


#4 Bud Crue

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:02 AM

Videos?
Yes. IS ERLL at 1300m should be pretty negligible even with quirks.

I guess to understand what is happening in regard to your assertion we would need to either have some controlled tests with known stats of the shooter and target to see what kind of damage is actually being done, or absent that at least video evidence of what you are experiencing with stats on your mech that is being killed in 2 volleys.

Something is certainly fishy if a 5ERLL Grasshopper is killing a fully armored Hellbringer or Novacat with 2 shots at 1300M

#5 Vxheous

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:06 AM

You're getting outplayed, and you are clearly exaggerating because there is no way a 5erll grasshopper kills you in 2 alphas at 1300m. Your hellbringers with 4 erll will still outrange with optimal range of 880m. You should also not overheat after only 2 alphas..

#6 CK16

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:12 AM

I will get some recordings in with this.

Granted this usually only happens against "good" teams like BCMC, EVIL(all iterations), MS (although to a lesser extent then the other two). I get most of these teams are usually regarded as good teams. But I consider my self atleast slighty above average, able to trade with most players. And to clarify not killing me, just taking all the armor off with in 2 volleys at that 1300ish range it feels (maybe they are more at 1100 to that but still... and I am not shutting down after 2 volleys just on red line, and a 3rd would shut me down if I am firing ad fast as possible ect.)

#7 Hobbles v

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:14 AM

Having played you and your unit many times. You have a PICNIC problem.

I recommend you or others in your unit stream or record your games. Going back and watching your own play is a real eye opener



#8 Nightbird

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:21 AM

At 1300 meters, the only kills we get is when someone trades against our whole team and gets alphaed by 6-8 people lol

#9 Xavori

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:28 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 20 November 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

Videos?
Yes. IS ERLL at 1300m should be pretty negligible even with quirks.

I guess to understand what is happening in regard to your assertion we would need to either have some controlled tests with known stats of the shooter and target to see what kind of damage is actually being done, or absent that at least video evidence of what you are experiencing with stats on your mech that is being killed in 2 volleys.

Something is certainly fishy if a 5ERLL Grasshopper is killing a fully armored Hellbringer or Novacat with 2 shots at 1300M


I have the perfect mech to test this: my Cyclops 11-P
10% range quirk
15% range skills
10.5% Mark VIII TC

ERLL's have an optimum range of 914m and a max range of 1687m

As an added bonus, this mech can lock targets out to 1500m+, so I was absolutely sure I was at exactly 1300m.
Here you can see the poor lil' Jenner that was my first test:
https://steamuserima...C7091A2DD2FDC3/
After the first burn of 3 ERLL's:
https://steamuserima...4BD6586D629812/
Only 6% damage, but CT armor is almost gone
After 2nd burn:
https://steamuserima...0BF8E9FFDE7547/
It's open CT which is a very bad thing for any mech, but it survives a 3rd burn...barely:
https://steamuserima...CD635189E3DAA1/
It croakes almost instantly at the start of the 4th burn.

I did the same test with an Atlas:
https://steamuserima...326D0C362EF9D1/

I didn't bother screenshotting every burn because it would have taken oodles of them. The Atlas was only losing between 1-2% (1 point something which I cannot tell cuz the game doesn't tell me) per full burn with armor. When I got to the structure, it jumped to a whopping 2.something% per burn.

Needless to say, I'm a wee bit skeptical of the OP's claims. More than likely, he's not losing trades 1v1. He's losing trades 4v1 or worse.

#10 Bud Crue

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:30 AM

View PostXavori, on 20 November 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

Testing...


Now that’s what I’m talkin about.

Edited by Bud Crue, 20 November 2017 - 08:30 AM.


#11 Paigan

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:32 AM

View PostSnazzy Dragon, on 20 November 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

10% range quirks + 10% range from firepower tree + focused fire.

Even with the boosted range clan vomit outtrades it, but you literally can't out trade 2 people shooting the same spot.

IS is still worse but teamwork and pre-drop planning is OP.

+15% range from firepower tree
+ targetting computer

intelligent loadouts + good skills engineering + good aim can do awesome things.
That is exactely why I laugh every brawler and every PPC sniper in the face for 3 years now (of course with module-boosted ERLL boating in the past, but still.)

Edited by Paigan, 20 November 2017 - 08:34 AM.


#12 stealthraccoon

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 08:53 AM

Nickels and dimes add up! Don’t forget that you might think you are getting strafed with one beam, but it is probably at least two.

#13 ForceUser

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:18 AM

The easiest way to understand a meta is to play it. You will see where the weaknesses are, you will see the challenges other players face when running a meta and you will understand why it is a meta.

This does not mean that morally you lost or something equally dumb that I've seen people say. You did not give in, you did not lose some mythical moral high ground nor are you doing what some shadowy illuminate wants you to do, this is pure and simply smart gameplay. The most important thing is you can realise that a) It's a gameplay style that has strengths and weaknesses just like any other meta and b.) you will know how to counter it or what it takes to succeed with it and c)maybe illuminate what you are doing wrong yourself.

Playing around a bit in the mechlab I can say a couple things with some certainty:

- They are using very large XL engines. It's required to run 5 ERLL with the number of heatsinks required to make this build feasible on a 70t Mech. They could run smaller LFEs but you'd have to give up a lot of tonnage and more importantly heatsink slots in the engine to do that. In general if a team is decent enough and coordinated enough it doesn't matter that they're in XLs because most everyone dies before they get into range to pose a threat.

- They are using double coolshots with full coolshot skill tree. Self explanatory. If you are not willing to do this yourself then you give them the advantage.

- Their mechs either have Cooldown, Heat reduction, Range or all 3 quirks. Not a huge amount you can do about that but knowing the exact variant they're running will allow you to know if they have an extra 5 or 10% range, if they have faster cooldowns or generate less heat. Any enemy team worth their salt sure as hell knows the exact maximum and minimum stats of your weapon systems.

- Their skill trees are tailor built for the exact tactics they employ. Max Range, Max Heat reduction, Max Duration and Max heat skills in Ops as well as all coolshot skills and probably the rest in Armor. Some might be running avanced zoom and some might have Strike skills.

As for the teams themselves;

- They've practices this, a lot. They've put in the hours. They put in the effort and they spend the extra energy and concentration required to make sure they aim and hit the components they want to hit. It's easy to lazy mode MWO and just 'hit' a mech. It takes a lot more energy and concentration to aim for specific components at extreme ranges consistently. It's not impossible it's just *effort*.

- They know the mechs they are facing inside and out, something a lot of IS AND Clan pilots are not willing to do because wah wah mah lore or effort or some BS along those lines.

So you'll need to spend the time in the mechlab and in quickplay and in lobbys and with your unit at the *minimum* because if you're not willing to do what the other unit *is* and then want to win then the problem definitely isn't with the meta, the mechs, the faction or the players Posted Image

Edited by ForceUser, 20 November 2017 - 10:18 AM.


#14 r4zen

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 10:35 AM

View PostCK16, on 20 November 2017 - 08:12 AM, said:

Granted this usually only happens against "good" teams like BCMC, EVIL(all iterations), MS (although to a lesser extent then the other two).


There's your answer. You're just getting rekt by pinpoint fire from people who know how to hold a beam on target. I'm assuming you're exaggerating about some of the factors in your original claim of a complete core out at 1300m, 1v1. It's either 1) closer than that, 2) more than one enemy, or 3) you're for whatever reason not fully armoring your front CT.

Would definitely second Hobbles' suggestion to record matches, it 100% helps to improve your play, especially if you don't play every day.

#15 ForceUser

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:02 AM

I put together a Battlemaster 1G build I would use in a a situation where I have 11 other people on coms and running the same build as I would and here's some fun numbers for you:

Alpha: 54 damage
Optimal Range: 880m
Max range: 1760m
Alpha Duration: Less than 1 second
Alpha at 1300m: 28 damage
Alpha at 1000m: 47 damage
Can alpha all 6 ERLL on Boreal without suffering any overheat damage? YES (well usually)
Number of 3 ERLL volleys before overheating: 6
With a coolshot: 8
% of mech that needs to be visible to fire all it's weapons: Around 20%

This is like having Dual Heavy Gauss that has an optimal range of 900m. I can understand how an entire unit of this will rip someone who's ignorant of the possibilities in MWO to shreds instantly.

PS. The exact same thing is just as if not more effective on Clan side.

#16 Escef

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:04 AM

View PostHobbles v, on 20 November 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Having played you and your unit many times. You have a PICNIC problem.


I had to Google that, never seen that variation on PEBKAC before.

#17 CK16

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:18 AM

View PostForceUser, on 20 November 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

I put together a Battlemaster 1G build I would use in a a situation where I have 11 other people on coms and running the same build as I would and here's some fun numbers for you:

Alpha: 54 damage
Optimal Range: 880m
Max range: 1760m
Alpha Duration: Less than 1 second
Alpha at 1300m: 28 damage
Alpha at 1000m: 47 damage
Can alpha all 6 ERLL on Boreal without suffering any overheat damage? YES (well usually)
Number of 3 ERLL volleys before overheating: 6
With a coolshot: 8
% of mech that needs to be visible to fire all it's weapons: Around 20%

This is like having Dual Heavy Gauss that has an optimal range of 900m. I can understand how an entire unit of this will rip someone who's ignorant of the possibilities in MWO to shreds instantly.

PS. The exact same thing is just as if not more effective on Clan side.


Could you do the science for the standard Clan Vomit? The standard Hellbringer and for curiosity sake the Nova Cat A stock loadout,
Armor is adjusted to front (iirc I am over 900m effective range on that)

Edited by CK16, 20 November 2017 - 11:24 AM.


#18 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:26 AM

View PostXavori, on 20 November 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:


Needless to say, I'm a wee bit skeptical of the OP's claims. More than likely, he's not losing trades 1v1. He's losing trades 4v1 or worse.

I think this is likely... I almost never see Evil, MS, etc, actualyl trade 1v1.. in almost any case, I see them find alleys to ensure 3-4 or more are able to focus on each target.

#19 Khobai

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:32 AM

Quote

Ok, maybe I am bit a bit salty herr of getting out traded by the ER LL poking Battlemasters and Grasshoppers...but!


for maps like boreal vault/polar highlands/alpine, etc..., you can try something like a night gyr with x4 ERLL then. you can get upto 999m optimum range.

740m base range * 1.35 = 999m optimum/1998m max (+10% from quirks, +15% from skills, +10% from targeting computer VII = +35%)

then you should never get out traded by a battlemaster again, you even have superior cooling, especially on hot maps.

Edited by Khobai, 20 November 2017 - 11:39 AM.


#20 ForceUser

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 11:56 AM

I decided to put together a clan 85t mech (Marauder IIC) that is in many ways comparable to the battlemaster build. Biggest drawback is worse hardpoints compared to the battlemaster but at least it's got a clan XL

Alpha: 55 damage
Optimal Range: 917m
Max range: 1834m
Alpha Duration: A decent bit over 1 second
Alpha at 1300m: 32 damage
Alpha at 1000m: 50 damage
Can alpha all 5 c-ERLL on Boreal without suffering any overheat damage? YES (82% heat)
Number of ERLL volleys (a 3 and then a 2) before overheating: 6 (ghost heat is fine on this build)
With a coolshot: 8

Like I said biggest differences between IS and Clan in this comparison is Clan XL vs IS XL, Clan hardpoints vs IS hardpoints, Clan has worse duration, IS has worse range, IS has better agility by a decent chunk, same speed and I guess IS gets a bit more tonnage to play with in CW. Relatively balanced all in all, almost as if the developers are actively balancing the game DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN. Posted Image

ps. you can drop some of the range from the TC to get a 6th ERLL but I don't know if it'd help or not since you will do a solid 7%+ overheat damage if you override firing all 6 and you wont finish your beam duration without override. You could face time 2+2+2 but that's like 3 seconds of burn duration.

Edited by ForceUser, 20 November 2017 - 11:58 AM.






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