164 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 25 November 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

there is no good reason why gauss still needs chargeup anymore. and as a sniper weapon gauss should be able to snapfire.

We already told you, it's for variety.

[davoodoo]

FupDup, on 25 November 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

We already told you, it's for variety.

For variety i dont see it and neither i do lgauss

[Khobai]

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We already told you, it's for variety.

what variety? people dont use light gauss or heavy gauss. they barely use std gauss lol.

chargeup is a large part of why people DONT USE THEM and why we DONT HAVE variety.

if you want variety, then buff gauss, dont oppress it behind crappy mechanics that add nothing beneficial to the game.

there is zero benefit to gauss having chargeup.

the chargeup mechanic is being used completely wrong

chargeup as a mechanic should be used for variable charge weapons. Like if we had PPC capacitors that worked similar to megaman's arm cannon. thats an example of where chargeup should be employed.

in that situation theres an actual benefit to the chargeup mechanic because you can use it to choose the level of charge on the weapon. Fire a weaker shot immediately, or spend some heat to charge it up for a stronger shot. that is intuitive use of the chargeup mechanic.

thats how you use chargeup mechanics properly in a game. megaman got it right. MWO got it wrong.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 02:19 PM.

[R Valentine]

FupDup, on 25 November 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

We already told you, it's for variety.

Variety is a piss poor reason, especially for the L-Gauss which is outclassed by every other weapon of similar weight, damage, velocity, or DPS. It excels at nothing. If you want to keep the charge for regular gauss then so be it, but light gauss needs help, and lots of it.

[Khobai]

even standard gauss is subpar now, it needs to lose chargeup too

also you dont add variety by penalizing weapons in unique ways. you add variety by giving weapons unique beneficial abilities. penalizing gauss with chargeup does not add variety, because its only ever a penalty. conversely adding variable charge levels to PPCs via PPC capacitors does add variety because its beneficial to be able to fire a weaker PPC immediately or charge it up for more heat and more damage.

thats an example of how to use the charge mechanic to add variety to weapons. rather than using it in a punitive way that stifles variety.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 02:24 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 25 November 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

there already is zero use for AC10

UAC10s made AC10s obsolete

thats the whole reason why its okay for gauss to snapshot again

gauss without chargeup wouldnt make AC10s anymore obsolete than UAC10s already did

Ac10 is still used in PPFLD poke because UACs are not PPFLD and are not reliable. Uac10s didn't replace ac10s at all - they just provided a strong DPS option for big IS dakka and as single ballistic point dakka on mediums and small heavies. The AC10 was always a shoot-twist-shoot weapon, UACs are not.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Did someone say Bombast Laser with charge?

[davoodoo]

MischiefSC, on 25 November 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

Ac10 is still used in PPFLD poke because UACs are not PPFLD and are not reliable. Uac10s didn't replace ac10s at all - they just provided a strong DPS option for big IS dakka and as single ballistic point dakka on mediums and small heavies. The AC10 was always a shoot-twist-shoot weapon, UACs are not.

they have less than 0.2s burst...

[MischiefSC]

Gauss with no chargeup is hands down best PPFLD. No question, no competition. High velocity, 1 heat, 15 damage PPFLD, a snapshot weapon that can consistently out trade any laser or even PPCs.

That's why it got chargeup. It makes it less reliable for snapshots than PPCs and other ballistucs. Much like random jams for UACs keeps them from being as reliable as regular ballistics.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 25 November 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

AC5s are way better with PPCs though

Not any more. Both are 100 m/s off from the PPC; one above, one below. The amount of desync is the same.

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theres really no reason to use AC10s with PPCs

There is, since you can't use Gauss and a pair of AC/5s is still heavier. If you've got the tonnage for AC/5, then use those. If you don't, then the AC/10 will do.

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AC10 is a bad weapon. too much weight for too little performance.

It's not good, but it's not bottom-tier either.

[FupDup]

Kiran Yagami, on 25 November 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

Variety is a piss poor reason, especially for the L-Gauss which is outclassed by every other weapon of similar weight, damage, velocity, or DPS. It excels at nothing. If you want to keep the charge for regular gauss then so be it, but light gauss needs help, and lots of it.

Removing the charge-up would barely help the LGR, stuff like more damage or faster reload time would be more impactful while keeping the weapon from being just an extended-range autocannon.

[Khobai]

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Gauss with no chargeup is hands down best PPFLD.

Gauss should be the best PPFLD in the game. It always has been.

That doesnt mean it shouldnt have tradeoffs though. Other mechwarrior games balanced it by giving it super long cooldowns.

Its fine if gauss is the best PPFLD in the game. As long as its not the best at everything else too.

But right now its not really the best at anything anymore. Its getting used less and less.

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Removing the charge-up would barely help the LGR, stuff like more damage or faster reload time would be more impactful while keeping the weapon from being just an extended-range autocannon.

i disagree.

if you removed chargeup, made it 10 damage, 810m, 20 shots per ton

and a ghost heat limit of 3

it wouldnt be that bad of a weapon

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 25 November 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

if you removed chargeup, made it 10 damage, 810m, 20 shots per ton

and a ghost heat limit of 3

it wouldnt be that bad of a weapon

It wouldn't be that bad of a weapon if you did everything except remove the charge-up, too. The same reasons for saying the charge-up doesn't do anything are the same as the reasons it doesn't need to be removed.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 25 November 2017 - 02:33 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Longer cooldown means absolutely nothing u til it's so long it's nearly worthless. Ask HLLs.

[Khobai]

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It wouldn't be that bad of a weapon if you did everything except remove the charge-up, too. The same reasons for saying the charge-up doesn't do anything are the same as the reasons it doesn't need to be removed.

maybe. but the fact still remains the chargeup mechanic is being used wrong

I explained how the chargeup mechanic should be used in a game. it should be used for weapons with variable levels of charge.

bombast lasers, ppc capacitors, variable speed pulse lasers, etc... those are weapons that should employ chargeup

you dont use chargeup for the sole purpose of penalizing weapons, thats stupid. Its used to set the charge level for variable charge weapons, that is the proper use of the mechanic.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 02:38 PM.

[R Valentine]

FupDup, on 25 November 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Removing the charge-up would barely help the LGR, stuff like more damage or faster reload time would be more impactful while keeping the weapon from being just an extended-range autocannon.

Why would faster reload help? The game is all about peeking. PGI just slowed the cycle time down on laser vomit and accomplished absolutely nothing. It isn't going to help L-gauss at all. Only charge removal and damage will have any effect.

[Khobai]

yeah faster reload isnt something light gauss cares about

what light gauss needs to do is 10 damage and it needs to be able to do 10 damage at greater ranges than standard gauss can do 10 damage.

light gauss also needs a ghost heat limit of 3. so you can use 2 light gauss with an erppc. or two erppcs with a light gauss.

and it needs no chargeup so it can syncfire alongside those erppcs. 30 damage PPFLD is hardly going to break the game.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 02:41 PM.

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 25 November 2017 - 04:23 AM, said:

but now we have the UAC20



not really since UAC20 easily beats gauss for brawling. you really think a 15 damage gauss competes with a 40 damage UAC20? nope.

UAC20 also isnt linked with SNPPCs for ghost heat (assuming SNPPCs ever get fixed)

chargeup on gauss should be removed. its a bad mechanic and its completely unnecessary now.

gauss, even with no chargeup, is a complete joke to the other brawling weapons that exist nowadays.

This doesn't mean that Gauss would not STILL obsolete and remove AC/20 from practical circulation.

"Why would it remove autocannons?"
"Superior to the AC/20."
"But we have the UAC/20 [also superior to the AC/20"
....That counter doesn't change the fact that the longer ranged Gauss Rifle would completely remove all purpose for an "AC/20."

Currently AC/20 plants 20 in one spot.
UAC/20 plants 6.67 damage in one spot... 3 times... and up to 6 in a cycle.

Compared to a longer ranged, heatless 15 damage planted in a single place and no ghost heat risk for double tapping too fast.

So Gauss Rifle can still easily trump the UAC/20 in some circumstances, as well as trump the AC/20 in almost everything other than "the first shot."

Edited by Koniving, 25 November 2017 - 02:44 PM.

[Khobai]

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This doesn't mean that Gauss would not STILL obsolete and remove AC/20 from practical circulation.

the AC20 is already obsolete and removed from practical circulation due to the fact it still has a ghost heat limit of 1

AC20 needs a ghost heat limit of 2.

40 PPFLD limited to 270m is hardly going to break the game.


now UAC20s having a ghost heat limit of 1 is probably still a good idea. I dont think we want two of them doing 80 damage without any ghost heat.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 02:44 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 25 November 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

maybe. but the fact still remains the chargeup mechanic is being used wrong

I explained how the chargeup mechanic should be used in a game. it should be used for weapons with variable levels of charge.

bombast lasers, ppc capacitors, variable speed pulse lasers, etc... those are weapons that should employ chargeup

That's actually you conflating the point with the execution.

The point of charge-up on all those other games is to provide a drawback for the expected reward. Because you can usually only use one weapon at a time and swapping takes valuable moments away in those extra-twitchy games, the concession is that they can bang out weak rounds so you aren't totally helpless. In MWO, we have multiple weapons. We almost always pair our Gauss rifles with lasers, and that is our equivalent to those weaker uncharged rounds.

The current Gauss does provide a suitable reward for its charge-up. The LGauss does not. If the LGauss could cycle faster, do more damage, etc., then it would be fine including the charge-up because it would have something on offer. Power-position with quad LGauss would be useful if they each did > 2.6 DPS (regardless of how that is obtained); it would be comparable to quad Gauss from something like a KDK-3. Niche, but useful. At that kind of DPS, just a pair alone would be analogous to massed ERLL fire in terms of output and could command a field over the long game.