183 replies to this topic

[OrmsbyGore]

As someone who loved to pilot assaults (especially the atlas and cyclops) I can say that 2 things absolutely killed assaults in public queue: lowest team play and laser vomit.

Lowsy team play left me frustrated as on every map in every mode my teammates would NASCAR to the right as fast as they can (in one game on hpg, Charlie lance was isolated in 45 seconds and destroyed by a focused enemy push, while the other 8 mechs nascared around the central platform without ever taking the top)

Laser vomit has enabled heavies to equal the alpha potential of many assaults at much lower tonnage, while hitscan weapons are easier to use than projectiles and the larger caliber energy weapons usually oitrange their ballistic counterparts.

The "skill" tree isn't helping, and neither are armor quirks for lights. It used to be worrisome to meet a light in isolation, as their speed meant I wouldn't be able to land many clean hits while they could maneuver around to my weak spots. Now, even if I unload a full alpha I'm not even guaranteed to strip all the armor from a component, especially if my alpha involves a spread weapon like arms. I understand that light mechs need to be made viable, but it's a little ridiculous to make them viable by making them as ran my as many mediums used to be, and in some cases (with quirks and "skill" tree) as some lighter heavies used to be.

[Sunstruck]

Theres still plenty of clan assult mechs in Q.

[Khobai]

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Laser vomit has enabled heavies to equal the alpha potential of many assaults at much lower tonnage, while hitscan weapons are easier to use than projectiles and the larger caliber energy weapons usually oitrange their ballistic counterparts.

yep. then you have heavies like the linebacker that can laser vomit while going the speed of a faster medium or slow light. or the ebon jaguar, hellbringer, etc...

there is no reason to play an assault that only goes 48-65 when you can play a heavy that goes 81-97, has way better survivability, and only slightly less or equal firepower

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Theres still plenty of clan assult mechs in Q.

yeah but theres way more clan heavies

clan heavies are way too good IMO, they need to be knocked down a peg

Edited by Khobai, 24 November 2017 - 09:31 AM.

[Captain Stiffy]

I always favored assault mechs. I tried to come back and play but all my mechs suck.

The new talent tree sucks.

This game sucks.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Captain Stiffy, on 24 November 2017 - 04:02 AM, said:

I always favored assault mechs. I tried to come back and play but all my mechs suck.

You need to reevaluate your builds then. Meta is changing and what's been good several years ago may be not good anymore.

And assaults are still the class which influences the outcome of the games the most, as been shown by the guy making statistics thread which I cant find because forum search doesnt work.

[Brain Cancer]

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Theres still plenty of clan assult mechs in Q.

Oh yes, there definitely is. Personally, I think the issue is speed. Clantech also meant the average speed overall on heavies went up, CW update meant many IS heavies caught up with LFEs...and that means the average deathball moves faster as well.

Going under 60kph at this point is a serious risk in QP for being NASCAR'd out of the match, and Clan assaults are more frequently in that 60+ speed range already without big drawbacks. The ones that aren't (read: Dire Wolf) are just as prone to being trampled as their IS slow walking cousins.

That means you have to adjust. LFE's for most assaults these days is a good idea to start.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 24 November 2017 - 05:15 AM.

[davoodoo]

Sunstruck, on 23 November 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

Theres still plenty of clan assult mechs in Q.

i see mad2cs, mc mk2 and occasional gargoyle and kodiak.
On is side i see maulers, stalkers(misery to be exact) and occasional cyclops.

thats what?? 20% of all variants used??

Edited by davoodoo, 24 November 2017 - 07:06 AM.

[panzer1b]

Assaults are still a game affecting force, the issue though is mobility, and the fact that thanks to HLLs, clam heavys can carry similar if not greater alfa strike then most assaults (and if its a clam assault you can do over 100 pinpoint alfa strike with a few mechs).

The issue is that the number of truly viable assaults is very low, and while you can always have fun in one of the non-meta models, you are very unlikely to really sway a game if you take something like a fatlas (dont get me wrong, it can still work well, but the combo of so-so alfa strike and limited range/speed make it very tough to get results consistently).

Also, if you are having trouble in your assault mechs, i strongly suggest you try to get an engine that lets it go at a bare minimum ~60-65kph, and to load it up with either alot of ACs, or long range weapons liek ERPPC, ERLL, GR, ect. Ive had the best results playing assaults that have at least some long range firepower since your hitboxes become smaller the longer the distance is, and thus your normally very susceptible to coring low agility pillbox remains viable and can trade effectively by outranging the enemy rather then torso twisting the damage away (few assaults come close to torso twisting agility levels even against 1.5s burn times). Brawling in assaults (with teh possible exception of stuff like cyclops or so) is really hard to pull off, stick to mid-long range and ull do more consistently better...

[Novakaine]

Novakaine a former Stalker pilot after he was informed a commando is a better mech for him.

[Nightbird]

BlueStrat, on 23 November 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

The data used does not separate CW/FW from solo-PUG.

CW/FW stats will naturally skew the numbers upwards as they have an actual team to support them, unlike in solo-PUG where assaults are almost always on their own and usually abandoned and left to die by solo-PUG teams who race ahead and then wonder why their assaults died so quick and didn't support *them*, LOL!.

Data does not include FP

[Khobai]

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Oh yes, there definitely is. Personally, I think the issue is speed.

I dont think the issue is so much speed. But rather the fact that clan heavies dont have to make a significant tradeoff in firepower to also have speed.

clan heavies can have both firepower AND speed. and thats the problem.

Since ISXL is garbage, IS heavies have to choose one or the other. its impossible to make an IS heavy with the same survivability as clan mech, thats goes just as fast, and carries the same amount of firepower. the IS heavy can only do two of the three, not all three.


clan assaults arnt as efficient as the clan heavies though, because for a clan assault to go fast it has to take a huge 360+ engine that has massive diminishing returns for tonnage. so clan assaults have to make more of a choice between firepower or speed than the heavies do. the clan heavies are right in the sweet spot for engine tonnage and can take the most efficient engine sizes.

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Also, if you are having trouble in your assault mechs, i strongly suggest you try to get an engine that lets it go at a bare minimum ~60-65kph

even thats too slow if your team is all clan mechs though. most clan heavies go 81+. 70kph is probably the absolute bare minimum you should be going to not get left behind.

clan heavies need to be forced to make more of a choice between weapons or speed. they shouldnt get the perfect balance of both without having to make any compromises whatsoever.

nerfing laser vomit is the place to start. laser vomit is too low tonnage for how much damage it can output. link large lasers and medium lasers for ghost heat.

Edited by Khobai, 24 November 2017 - 10:01 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 24 November 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

even thats too slow if your team is all clan mechs though. most clan heavies go 81+

Nonsense. Average speed for most heavies is 64 kph.

62 kph which most assaults can do is completely enough to keep up with the team, provided assault pilots look at the map from time to time and understand what those blue marks mean. Some obviously dont look at the map and then cry about being left alone but its their own fault in the majority of cases.

[Cato Phoenix]

I keep seeing games with 5-6 assault pilots per side in QP, so I'm not sure that these aren't being taken.

Now, I still see a lot of them marking 100-200 damage because of rotatory pug forces, etc.

[davoodoo]

I never went over 325 on is assault(though ill probably put 350lfe on atlas) and only kodiaks have over 375 engine from clans. Even mad2c got drop to 350 to fit mpl instead of ermeds.

Im keeping up with team at 55kph just fine, unless theyre really zealous at their pushing and go full speed to enemy base at which point i facepalm and ask wtf are you doing?

Edited by davoodoo, 24 November 2017 - 10:20 AM.

[Khobai]

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Nonsense. Average speed for most heavies is 64 kph.

no lol

the only clan heavies that go 64 are the night gyr and the nova cat

nova cat = 64
night gyr = 64
maddog = 81
linebacker = 97
ebon jaguar = 81
hellbringer = 81
orion IIC = 78
summoner = 81
timberwolf = 81

so average speed for clan heavies is 78, not 64

see the problem? these clan heavies go as fast as mediums and often have the same firepower of assaults and better survivability.

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62 kph which most assaults can do is completely enough to keep up with the team

half of the clan assaults arnt even capable of going 62

and at least half of the ones that can go over 62 are assaults that arnt very good like the executioner or gargoyle

so basically theres the madcat mk2 and maybe the kodiak...

the point is theres a HUGE disparity in speed between clan heavies and assaults. Because clan heavies are allowed to go way too fast. clan heavies should be forced to choose more between firepower or speed and nerfing laser vomit is the best way to accomplish that.

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Im keeping up with team at 55kph just fine, unless theyre really zealous at their pushing and go full speed to enemy base at which point i facepalm and ask wtf are you doing?

sure because theres still slower IS mechs in quickplay. but if you play clans in faction play where everyone else is in a fast heavy, being an an assault is often a liability to your team.

Edited by Khobai, 24 November 2017 - 10:34 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Yeah, people are taking them.

A lot of them aren't situationally aware enough to figure out how they got mashed and like all forms of insanity, repeat it in expectation of different results. They think "Hey if I was in something less armored, I'd die faster.". In reality, it's being too slow.

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orion IIC = 78

Orion IIC's are stock 300 engines. That's 64.8 kph, not 78.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 24 November 2017 - 10:28 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 24 November 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

no lol

the only clan heavies that go 64 are the night gyr and the nova cat

You're not playing exclusively with clan heavies, don't you? Because if you do its called FP and noone cares does nascar there.

[Khobai]

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You're not playing exclusively with clan heavies, don't you? Because if you do its called FP and noone cares does nascar there.

youve never heard of linebacker rushes? theyre pretty common in FP because its tough to deal with 12 heavies with laser vomit that move as fast as lights that are swarming your dropzone in the first few minutes of the game.

theres other reasons for wanting speed than nascaring.

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Orion IIC's are stock 300 engines. That's 64.8 kph, not 78.

orions can have 360 engines, their max potential speed is 78

sure you can choose to go slower to accommodate heavier loadouts, but its still capable of going 78.

the hero orion also has masc so its average speed is potentially faster than 78

whereas the night gyr and nova cat are physically incapable of going faster than 64 because theyre omnimechs

Edited by Khobai, 24 November 2017 - 10:47 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Nema Nabojiv, on 24 November 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

...
62 kph which most assaults can do is completely enough to keep up with the team, provided assault pilots look at the map from time to time and understand what those blue marks mean. Some obviously dont look at the map and then cry about being left alone but its their own fault in the majority of cases.

Yes, but with many IS assaults this means leaving behind a lot of firepower. I think 55km/h is a more reasonable goal for them, but what do I know...

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 24 November 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

half of the clan assaults arnt even capable of going 62

and at least half of the ones that can go over 62 are assaults that arnt very good like the executioner or gladiator

Have you heard about a thing called speed tweak? They say it helps to boost your standard 58 kph to 62 and thus the only reason you may be left alone is your own decision to not go with the team.

Seriously, the only two assaults who have legit excuse for not going 60ish are the Anni and Dire.