139 replies to this topic

[Formosa The God]

Ah Scouting, Or Bushwhacker online lol

[ANOM O MECH]

mistlynx4life, on 26 November 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

I think an important thing to note is that Faction Play is the 'real' MWO experience. You'll find a lot of the diehard players have units and do that more often than QP. They'll have coordination, optimized drop decks, etc. - generally speaking, more experience with the mode overall. The suggestion that their valid and legal exploitation of game mechanics (SRM-boats are nothing new or evil) during an event is not likely to gain traction. It is a tactic and since it's the easiest tactic to implement, you'll see it a lot more often than any other tactic. It's not bad but it seems amplified during an event because the usual PUG crowd wants the 'easy wins' so they think: if SRMs are how the most FP veterans play Scouting, I'll bring ALL the SRMz!

I won a match for my team the other day in a Locust. A few hours later, I got harassed in chat and then teamkilled in the first thirty seconds because I brought a Locust. The narrow-minded win-at-all-costs players who only do Scouting during Scouting-centric events will always do what seems easiest for them and consider anything less to be a total failure and waste of time. Balance, if it exists at all in MWO, kind of takes a vacation during events.

It's like when the MLX-G came out and people were crying about machine guns and machine gun boats being 'OP'. In every instance I can think of, the examples they were using to state their case were times in QuickPlay where they were off alone and got schooled. That's on them. It's not that legging or SRMs are ruining the mode, it's only legging or SRMs that make it stale and un-enjoyable for a lot of people - and I strongly suspect that's happening right now because there's an event and you have a lot of inexperienced folks playing that mode. I'm no FPer but I do enjoy dabbling in it from time to time. It is entirely possible that everything I've just said is wrong though. I do understand the frustration at any game/mode that stagnates. Hopefully it'll be better next week. *shrugs*

To be honest if I dropped with you in a locust I would probably groan to myself, but I would certainly let you do your thing and be glad to be surprised which has happened more than once (actually a one ppc carrying Mistlynx pilot on scouting who wrecked and got 600+ damage).

[Xiphias]

Kin3ticX, on 26 November 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

I think its fine. It diverges from the solo queue meta of medium range poke fights. 4v4 is just a different way to play. If you don't like that you might not like single mech combat in Solaris either.

You can also always just be a chickenshit and run around downloading future space pr0n. You might not win and you will never get 250 match score but you can be a pain in the *** to slower medium mechs.

Or you can do what I do and run a Cicada or Viper and kill the slower medium mechs with ERMLs. They literally can't touch you. I almost always get my 250 match score, I can 1v4 enemy teams, and I laugh at the tears of the slow streak boats.

Personally, I like the mode. You can play things other than SRMs you just have to know what you are doing with them.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Xiphias, on 26 November 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

Or you can do what I do and run a Cicada or Viper and kill the slower medium mechs with ERMLs. They literally can't touch you. I almost always get my 250 match score, I can 1v4 enemy teams, and I laugh at the tears of the slow streak boats.

Yep, the only thing I fear when in a Huntsman, Nova or Hunchback-IIC is an ERLL Cicada. I had a string of matches against the same group of 3 + 1 random, it was brutal!

[mistlynx4life]

tker 669, on 26 November 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

To be honest if I dropped with you in a locust I would probably groan to myself, but I would certainly let you do your thing and be glad to be surprised which has happened more than once (actually a one ppc carrying Mistlynx pilot on scouting who wrecked and got 600+ damage).

Thanks. It's not that I'm hoping to prove something by bringing a Locust - but the win I did get? The other three players died in a brawl that I ran from. Two disco'd because they didn't have the 250dmg. The third guy stayed because he had the damage... and he got his event swag. I wasn't interested in the damage. I can totally understand the feeling I must give other folks when I do things like that but there's a line between 'only one way to win this' and 'trying new things'. I think that line gets harsh during events. It's also why I typically stay away from FP, lol.

[Requiemking]

I all honesty, the main reason you see SRM boats and legging in Scouting is because, like the rest of the game, combat is everything to the score system. Change that, and suddenly people won't play Scouting as 4v4 deathmatch.

[Xiphias]

Jay Leon Hart, on 26 November 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

Yep, the only thing I fear when in a Huntsman, Nova or Hunchback-IIC is an ERLL Cicada. I had a string of matches against the same group of 3 + 1 random, it was brutal!

6ERML is actually way better on the Cicada. The ERLL just doesn't have enough damage. ERML has plenty of range and does way better DPS.

I'm not really sure why more people don't do this other than it requires more effort to avoid getting too close and bit more positioning/map awareness.

[mistlynx4life]

Quote

I all honesty, the main reason you see SRM boats and legging in Scouting is because, like the rest of the game, combat is everything to the score system. Change that, and suddenly people won't play Scouting as 4v4 deathmatch.

Absolutely. MWO is touted as a 'tactical, 'Mech-based online shooter set in the rich BattleTech Universe' but I agree - with such a huge reliance on damage for match score, it does tend to skew things in the extreme. Again, I think damage should still be the largest factor - it's the single most reliable metric to determine victory consistently over time, in my opinion - but it still needs to be toned down. There will always be players who min/max. You can't avoid that. What you can do is reward players who don't do that, who want to, for instance, take on this role:

Whether tracking enemy movements or launching quick and disruptive flank attacks, Scouts should never stop moving. Mobility is the key to success.

Optimal Class(es): Light
Firepower: Low
Mobility: Very High
Armor: Very Low

Not all 'roles' are about dealing damage. I know people will rush to chime in with "But even Scouts can use [these three or four Lights] and still get crazy amounts of damage!" Of course they can. What if a player just wants to play a support role with NARCs or running around like crazy because they like the freedom that the game offers though? Spotting targets is helpful. Playing the mode is helpful. Squirreling is helpful. These things require skill as well. They don't offer near the amount of rewards though, which pitches the general playerbase towards damage-dealing, which breeds toxicity for those unwilling to accept anything outside the narrow bounds of the perceived Meta.

Can you fathom an event based on tallying something called, let's say, tokens... where each player gets a single token for capping any Conquest point (the First Captured part or the assisting one) or Assault zone, a single token for any number of Solo Kills in a match, a single token for dropping off a fuel cell, a single token for getting to Domination circle first, etc.? If you leveled the scoring system like that in a way that the min/maxing isn't given easy footing, the events wouldn't exacerbate the already inherent flaws like they do. FP has this huge problem during events because Mercs can switch sides and so on - that's a really fundamental game feature that ruins the experience for a lot of folks (not to mention the concept of ties, lol).

As usual, it's lots of different things together that are kind of just 'meh' that come to a head during events and make the flaws of the game really obvious. Just gotta shrug it off and do you - which is hard if you've spent hundreds or thousands of dollars to do so.

Edited by mistlynx4life, 26 November 2017 - 10:40 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Xiphias, on 26 November 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

6ERML is actually way better on the Cicada. The ERLL just doesn't have enough damage. ERML has plenty of range and does way better DPS.

I'm not really sure why more people don't do this other than it requires more effort to avoid getting too close and bit more positioning/map awareness.

Because CERML is drastically superior and has better range and HLLs even more so. You get to IS ERML range you're vulnerable to almost EVERY Clan weapon. Well within range - even Clan Streaks will hit you.

Erlls let you stay outside of range of all of those.

[Xiphias]

MischiefSC, on 26 November 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Because CERML is drastically superior and has better range and HLLs even more so. You get to IS ERML range you're vulnerable to almost EVERY Clan weapon. Well within range - even Clan Streaks will hit you.

Erlls let you stay outside of range of all of those.

Specifically, this is scouting though. The 2A has a 10% range bonus and with the skill tree I get a optimal range of 450m. That puts me outside of clan streaks and I can easily move further away for slightly reduced damage if I need more safety.

The burn time is only 0.9s (1.25 CERML, 1.45 HML, 1.55 HLL). With burn time it's dealing 5.5 vs 5.6 compared to clan. Further, it's the same damage per heat so while the CERML is dealing more damage it's also putting out more heat. While you might be vulnerable to heavier clan ranged weapons you are unlikely to see those in significant numbers in scouting. SSRMs/SRMs are far more common. If I saw a lot of laservomit in scouting I might change things up, but it's not too common.

The DPS on 2ERLL is just too anemic to put up good numbers if your team is winning or if you get forced to brawl.

[MischiefSC]

Xiphias, on 26 November 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

Specifically, this is scouting though. The 2A has a 10% range bonus and with the skill tree I get a optimal range of 450m. That puts me outside of clan streaks and I can easily move further away for slightly reduced damage if I need more safety.

The burn time is only 0.9s (1.25 CERML, 1.45 HML, 1.55 HLL). With burn time it's dealing 5.5 vs 5.6 compared to clan. Further, it's the same damage per heat so while the CERML is dealing more damage it's also putting out more heat. While you might be vulnerable to heavier clan ranged weapons you are unlikely to see those in significant numbers in scouting. SSRMs/SRMs are far more common. If I saw a lot of laservomit in scouting I might change things up, but it's not too common.

The DPS on 2ERLL is just too anemic to put up good numbers if your team is winning or if you get forced to brawl.

I run 2 HLLs, 2cerml hbk a lot. CERMLs are hotter but my cooling is insanely better - that loadout runs cooler than you erml build.

I get the logic for scouting, though ice ferrets and the like will still eat you. My skilled streak Huntsmen hit streaks out to 390 though so you've got a tiny 60m window for range. That's literally 2 seconds of travel time.

However some rangey laser options work we'll with brawl setups. That's why the HBK is good - I have 100-150 damage put on the enemy before they hit brawling range. Skews odds a lot.

[Beaching Betty]

Theres a reason why its called SCOUTING. What do you expect? Raining LRM?

[Requiemking]

Beaching Betty, on 26 November 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Theres a reason why its called SCOUTING. What do you expect? Raining LRM?

Evading the defenders in fast mechs, gather the intel and get out alive while being rewarded for doing so.

[Beaching Betty]

Requiemking, on 26 November 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

Evading the defenders in fast mechs, gather the intel and get out alive while being rewarded for doing so.

Thats one way too if the enemy is distracted by our teammate then you can do that.

[Xiphias]

MischiefSC, on 26 November 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

I run 2 HLLs, 2cerml hbk a lot. CERMLs are hotter but my cooling is insanely better - that loadout runs cooler than you erml build.

I get the logic for scouting, though ice ferrets and the like will still eat you. My skilled streak Huntsmen hit streaks out to 390 though so you've got a tiny 60m window for range. That's literally 2 seconds of travel time.

However some rangey laser options work we'll with brawl setups. That's why the HBK is good - I have 100-150 damage put on the enemy before they hit brawling range. Skews odds a lot.

Laser Hunch is a solid choice for scouting and get to be primary targets for me. With good piloting you do have a speed advantage so the trick is to win the trades, still a hard fight that probably favors the hunch.

As for Ice Ferrets, when was the last time you saw one in scouting? I just trust my superior piloting skills for killing Vipers and Ice Ferrets. In fast vs fast, burn time becomes pretty important.

This is all just for solo to be clear. In a group there's a decent chance I'd take something else, but regardless of how good you are if you're in a slow mech and your team is potatoes you're going to get rolled over by a half competent brawl push. With a fast mech I can literally kill entire teams solo. When I solo I anticipate my team being potatoes so I bring a mech that's better for soloing the team myself.

In a group it's not the best mech, but I'd argue that for solo it is a contender in the hands of a good pilot since it's more flexible than slower mechs. Enough armor to deal with lights and enough speed to deal with rushers too.

Quick Edit:
To address streaks, sure the window is small if I sit at 450m exactly. However, I'm fine with sitting at 500-550m and still doing most of the damage while they do 0 damage back.

Edited by Xiphias, 26 November 2017 - 11:42 AM.

[Requiemking]

Beaching Betty, on 26 November 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Thats one way too if the enemy is distracted by our teammate then you can do that.

It's not hard to do. Grab a COM-2D, outfit it with ECM, Stealth armor, and the biggest engine you can fit, and run like hell. You can literally win the match without ever being seen, and that is the way the mode was intended. Sadly, thanks to the way the score system is, playing that way is highly non-profitable.

[Beaching Betty]

Requiemking, on 26 November 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

It's not hard to do. Grab a COM-2D, outfit it with ECM, Stealth armor, and the biggest engine you can fit, and run like hell. You can literally win the match without ever being seen, and that is the way the mode was intended. Sadly, thanks to the way the score system is, playing that way is highly non-profitable.

BETTER BUFF IT PGI!

[Requiemking]

Beaching Betty, on 26 November 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

BETTER BUFF IT PGI!

What do you think we Light pilots have been trying to do pretty much since the game came out?

[Spheroid]

There is no activity that asks more skill of the player than engaging in combat. You need to aim, maneavuer violently, twist and manage heat at the same time.

How is collecting info nodes skillful? Conquest in FP is somewhat a tactical game as it requires dynamic response to manage capping outcomes. However both sides are guaranteed to meet each other in contention of these cap points. So it is a win/win for each side. Smoke diving and combat avoidance does not satisfy the hunting side in scouting.

Objective rushing is not a desireable playstyle in this game. Assault previously suffered from this in quickplay and siege in its earliest days resolved too quickly or from range shooting exposed o-gens of lesser health with zero turrets. These were not considered successful versions of the current mode and were amended. This design philosophy is still in effect.

If people want drastically lower ttk, they should ask for 1,1,1,1 mini conquest were the engagements will not be 4v4 but isolated duels of 1v1 or pairs spread over the map. You just tweak the capture rate and spawn locations to arrive at the correct level of dispersion vs. concentration to promote sufficiently fun and long fights to the death.

I believe people's main beef with scouting is not the combat but the extremely short TTK. Are people seriously asking for a non-combat activity in a combat game? The physics model is non-existant so what other motor reflex skill is being exercised?

Edited by Spheroid, 26 November 2017 - 12:22 PM.

[Asym]

MischiefSC, on 26 November 2017 - 07:49 AM, said:

So a mode in a stompy shooty robbits game based around not shooting mechs.

That wouldn't fill matches. Why not just have races - unarmed mechs running circles or something. Maybe a Map Tour where you just walk around in mechs admiring scenery.

Mech Pet Rescue! So there are cute, unhappy pets hidden around the map and you have to go get them down from trees and stuff.

Its a fighting game. The reason for objectives is to give a framework to fight around, tools to leverage to control where and how the fighting takes place. Not avoiding fighting all together. You absolutely can smoke dive in scouting - it works very well in fact. That you do it in the face of an impending brawl is what makes it a good, challenging strategy to win.

Again, so you and so many others just can't accept that brawling isn't always the answer.... Fighting comes in two basic varieties: subtle and decisive. You are stuck on decisive because it's really a pretty simple FPs arcade event: see them, kill them. Subtle, is the sneaky version to fighting where the idea is accomplish a mission dirst and if you must, fight.... Lights need a role or they become NVA... Lights need a role;........brawling isn't it.

The game has taken away spotting (because no comp team would ever use LRMs), taken away intelligence gathering (since scouting is nothing but a brawl), taken away signal interdiction (ECMs and nerfs) and you wonder why we have a declining player base??? We are not all FPS brawling pilots.....Say, 30% of the current population wants "something" else, doing something else; and, would like a place in the game, either by role or by game design to have fun....

If you continue these type of replies, eventually, that 30% will leave MWO and that, is the beginning of the end..... We hang on in hope MWO will change.........

So go ahead, keep the bravado up.