247 replies to this topic

[lazorbeamz]

N0ni, on 27 November 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:

What's there to address when it's PGI's "balance" attempts that create these problems every single time? Without fail i might add.

As soon as one "OP" thing is addressed and solved, another one takes the place of the previous and we begin the forum threads all over again. Meanwhile, when you "solve" that "OP" thing... you ruin it for the underperforming mechs putting them further below the curve.

Only ballistics deserve to be OP. THey are short ranged, ammo limited and actually fire a projectile unlike hitscan.

[lazorbeamz]

sceii, on 27 November 2017 - 11:16 PM, said:

Easy guide how to counter HLL mechs.
Step 1: Equip your mech with srm/mrm/ml/mpl/ac10-20/mg
Step 2: Find enemy mech with hll
Step 3: Use your best tactics to get in 300m range bracket
Step 4: Twist as good as you can for 1 enemy mech alpha
Step 5: Kill enemy mech when he is waiting for his lasers and heat to cooldown.
EZPZ
Step 4: get dunked on by his 4 laser vomit buddies, die instantly

[Khobai]

no weapon should be OP lol

[Steve Pryde]

HLL are nice for potato solo queue but in a even fight I would always take clpls over them because of half a second less face time.

[lazorbeamz]

Khobai, on 28 November 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

well the AC20 should have a ghost heat limit of 2

or at the very least the ghost heat penalty for firing 2 should be significantly lowered

40 damage at 270m is not overpowered


And no they should not reduce the damage on large lasers. Large lasers are already way less efficient than medium lasers. The only laser that probably should get nerfed is the CERML which should be 6 damage and 5.4 heat instead of 7 damage and 6.3 heat.

then link large and medium lasers for ghost heat and increase the ghost heat limit on non-heavy large lasers by 1 for both clans and IS so they can be used as standalone primary weapons.



then why would anyone ever use large lasers?

youd just be killing large lasers outright if you knocked 25% of their damage off

and yes ghost heat is stupid, but its what the game uses... and to remain consistent its what the game should keep using until a better solution is found.

People would obviously still use large and medium lasers for their range and hitscan at huge distances. or because they have a bunch of energy hardpoints that they need to fill up with something.

Jay Leon Hart, on 28 November 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

Why should it?

Its a very nice design when the clans have lasers as their trademark and IS has brawlers, mrm/ac boats. Brings more flavor into this game. its just poorly implemented and lasers simply overshadow everything else combined twofold.

Pls count the amount of ballistic boats in competitive games haha HINT there are none

[Khobai]

the problem is ballistics and missiles dont make for good poking weapons

ballistics require more facetime than lasers to do the same damage as a laser vomit alpha

and missiles are either too short range and spread damage around too much or are simply too slow to hit enemies before they duck back into cover

the only way to ensure ballistics and missiles get used more is to get rid of the poking meta.

capping the max alphas on laser vomit is a good place to start. limit laser vomit alphas to no more than 40 damage.

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2017 - 05:51 AM.

[Bragg936]

I dont think we can talk about the HLL withought straying into the Heavy guess and MRM discussion.

Guass pinpoint damage if run in a pair can strip a CT and core a mech in short order(56 CT on my helbringer for referance), ive run into a couple of assults with this build and its very effective if they are in range.

MRM are just as evil if used correctly.

Taken in context with IS tech the HLL is quite well balanced and is outranged by a lot of current builds (includeing an MRM build, which is just at max range for the HL)

Khobai, on 28 November 2017 - 05:45 AM, said:

the problem is ballistics and missiles dont make for good poking weapons

ballistics require more facetime than lasers to do the same damage as a laser vomit alpha

and missiles are either too short range and spread damage around too much or are simply too slow to hit enemies before they duck back into cover

the only way to ensure ballistics and missiles get used more is to get rid of the poking meta.

capping the max alphas on laser vomit is a good place to start. limit laser vomit alphas to no more than 40 damage.

err yess and no. Getting max dakka out of a mech will always favour laser vomit, at 1 ton emel/cemel are simply the best option for power to wieght. The down side is the these builds run very hot in all but high tonnage mechs, unless you downgrade to esml/cesml

That said ballistics weapons greatly reduce face time while provideing pinpoint damage, can you really tell me that a laservom
ebon jag can keep all of ceml on the same module for the entire burnduration at optimum?

I dont deny skilled players can make that work but if you are moveing and he is moveing the damage gets spread out over at least 2- 3 htiboxes. I find it much easier to reliably hit the same spot on a mech usieng say an AC10 than 5-6 ceml.

Take the AC 20 for example, on paper this is a horrible weapon, 20dmg for 14 tons plus ammo. You could load up on lasers and heatsinks for that tonnage, BUT! its a very popular weapons becuse it can put 20points into one hitbox as opposed to potentialy splashing dmg across the face of a mech. (clan uac20 is a bit arse in that respect as it fires 4 shots which can spread)

[lazorbeamz]

you dont hit the same component with ac either because you miss shots. at 250+m hitting components on moving mechs is simply impossible and you might miss the whole mech altogether.

Only the face time argument is valid here but if you violate severe ghost heat limits for AC there goes your face time because you need to stagger.

[lazorbeamz]

Khobai, on 28 November 2017 - 05:45 AM, said:

the problem is ballistics and missiles dont make for good poking weapons

ballistics require more facetime than lasers to do the same damage as a laser vomit alpha

and missiles are either too short range and spread damage around too much or are simply too slow to hit enemies before they duck back into cover

the only way to ensure ballistics and missiles get used more is to get rid of the poking meta.

capping the max alphas on laser vomit is a good place to start. limit laser vomit alphas to no more than 40 damage.

yes get rid of poking. only way is to reduce laser damage to a point where even hitscan has questionable profit.

I think med and lrg leed a dmg nerf of at least 25-33% for us to see people start dropping the peeking game in favor of brawl/facetime. no less, otherwise the peeking hitscan alphas are too easy

Edited by lazorbeamz, 28 November 2017 - 07:53 AM.

[Tordin]

Eh. What the heck? Finally after the last change to the Heavy lasers and the Large version at that and someone complain they are too stronk?? They have enough drawbacks as it is. Maybe up the duration a TINY bit but for shorter cooldown than the C-ERLL have.

And I play both tech bases.

Whats next, people bicker about that mg,s and flamers and lurms are too strong?? Oh... wait.. *sigh*

[Mystere]

Armored Yokai, on 27 November 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

Hellbringers are the even bigger problem.

There is a very good reason why they are called "Hellbringers" and why I like them.

Armored Yokai, on 27 November 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

No 65 tonner can beat this mech unless the map is a city or close map
Boating 4 ERLL on the Hellbringer with the Inclusion of ECM(functions like AECM) makes it too strong for it's own good.

Then let's have more, much more, dense maps.

There are other ways of dealing with such "problems" other than just nerfing everything into the ground, right?

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 28 November 2017 - 04:22 AM, said:

CERML is 7 damage for 1 ton and 1 crit.

CHLL is 18 damage for 4 tons and 3 crits.

The CERML is also too much power for too little cost, thank you for reminding me. It should only be 6 damage, with its heat going down to somewhere between 5.5-6 accordingly (no laser should ever have higher heat than damage IMO).

This doesn't make the HLL innocent, because its high alpha per hardpoint has been the direct enabler of the most recent 60-70+ alpha strikes.

Khobai, on 28 November 2017 - 04:47 AM, said:

Well linking large lasers and medium lasers for ghost heat is a surefire way of lowering the alpha strike amounts.

clan large lasers would get a ghost heat limit of 3

IS large lasers would get a ghost heat limit of 4

but they would now be linked with medium lasers for ghost heat

The HLL should stay at just 2. Allowing a max laser alpha of 54 (assuming current damage value stays the same) would be stupid.

Edited by FupDup, 28 November 2017 - 10:12 AM.

[YueFei]

Bragg936, on 28 November 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

Guass pinpoint damage if run in a pair can strip a CT and core a mech in short order(56 CT on my helbringer for referance), ive run into a couple of assults with this build and its very effective if they are in range.

That has to be typo? My Hunchback has more front CT armor than that, before considering the Skill Tree... I roll with 62 front CT armor, and after Skill Tree (since I took all the armor nodes) it's about 74 front CT armor.

You should be able to run 80+ front CT armor on your Hellbringer, with 0 investment in the Skill Tree's armor nodes.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Bragg936, on 28 November 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

(56 CT on my helbringer for referance)

Stop running trash armor allocations and you'll die much less.

[FupDup]

Snazzy Dragon, on 28 November 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

Stop running trash armor allocations and you'll die much less.

Specifically, he'd be running 28 rear CT armor on that thing.

[Athom83]

lazorbeamz, on 28 November 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

you dont hit the same component with ac either because you miss shots. at 250+m hitting components on moving mechs is simply impossible and you might miss the whole mech altogether.

LOL, for you maybe. I troll people sometimes by hitting them with my AC/20 from 1km out XD. And I can keep constant ranged dakka on people with the UAC 2s and 5s on both techbases.

lazorbeamz, on 28 November 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

Only the face time argument is valid here but if you violate severe ghost heat limits for AC there goes your face time because you need to stagger.

LOL again, you aren't going to be hitting GH with the vast majority of mechs using ballistics like you can with lasers. And even then you can still alpha through GH several times before you need to stagger fire. But that isn't counting LB weapons which have no GH.

[Armored Yokai]

Mystere, on 28 November 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

There are other ways of dealing with such "problems" other than just nerfing everything into the ground, right?

It's easier to nerf things according to PGI.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Armored Yokai, on 28 November 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

It's easier to nerf things according to PGI.

There is nothing wrong with nerfing overperforming things, especially if it is coupled with buffing overperforming things. Just check what works best and what worst, nerf the best, buff the worst. If you reserve yourself to just do this 2 things, the balance can only increase, maybe slowly, maybe with hiccups (like accidently hurting underperforming mechs with a nerf to their best weapon because that weapon overperforms on other chassis, so that the mech itself then needs to be buffed later) but it will. Simply because with every nerf to the best things and buff to the worst things, the gap between the best and the worst gets smaller.

The problem with PGI is that they nerf not overperforming things for the crimes of their overperforming buddies, nerf things through 'normalisation', by accident, nerf them for no reason at all. Especially normalisation is a big problem here. For example - how many mechs received buffs to compensate for getting bigger after the rescale? 0.

Remember Jagermech DD? It was quite a great chassis once. Then it fell behind the new stronk mechs released. Then it got hit by a rescale (got even wider) with no compensation, then it got hit by UAC heat nerf (with no compensation), then it got hit with 'jamchance quirk normalisation' (with no compensation), then it got hit with skill-tree-release-agility rebalance... and I think I missed a nerf or two that hit the poor mech for the last 2 years AFTER it was no longer any close to the meta. Viable (never actually meta) mech slowly and consistently turned into a piece of junk to be run by masochists.

This is why we can't and won't have balance in this game.

[Mole]

Bragg936, on 28 November 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

I dont think we can talk about the HLL withought straying into the Heavy guess and MRM discussion.

Guass pinpoint damage if run in a pair can strip a CT and core a mech in short order(56 CT on my helbringer for referance), ive run into a couple of assults with this build and its very effective if they are in range.

MRM are just as evil if used correctly.

Taken in context with IS tech the HLL is quite well balanced and is outranged by a lot of current builds (includeing an MRM build, which is just at max range for the HL)

I disagree. There are only two IS 'mechs that can actually run twin Heavy Gauss. The Mauler and the Annihilator to be precise. And in order to even have the slots, they must run it with a STD engine. That is 36 tons and 22 slots of weapon with a forced STD engine the eats up even more tonnage and that's not even considering the extra tonnage and slots consumed by ammo for the things that if gently tapped will instantly explode. MRMs require at least 10 slots and 20 tons that is again not even considering ammunition to be really scary. But any clan 'mech with a couple of energy hardpoints, 8 tons, and 6 slots can comfortably mount twin HLLs with no need for ammo.

Edited by Mole, 28 November 2017 - 02:27 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The HLL should stay at just 2. Allowing a max laser alpha of 54 (assuming current damage value stays the same) would be stupid.

I have no objection to that. but the non-heavy large lasers need to be increased in ghost heat limit to 3

so if large lasers and medium lasers were linked for ghost heat, the ghost heat limits should allow:

x6 CERML @ 6 damage each = 36 damage (damage lowered to 6 and heat lowered to 5.4)
x6 CMPL @ 7 damage each = 42 damage
x2 CHLL @ 18 damage each = 36 damage
x3 CERLL @ 11 damage each = 33 damage
x3 CLPL @ 12 damage = 36 damage

x7 ISERML @ 5 damage = 35 damage
x7 ISERMPL @ 6 damage = 42 damage
x4 ISLL @ 9 damage = 36 damage
x4 ISERLL @ 9 damage = 36 damage
x4 ISLPL @ 10 damage = 40 damage

Its almost like its consistent or something...

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2017 - 02:32 PM.