466 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

OmniFail, on 11 December 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

Bro you have no idea how i play. Your just making stuff up. You see and hear LRM and you think im hiding 800m out. You act like if a mech has lrms on it that the person is a noob without direct fire for close range. You talk about tag and getting my own locks. If im in someones face im not gonna tag and lurm them im gonna work them with the lasers. What is going on in your brains. You say lrms suck because they spread damage. But weapons that you like that spread damage are ok. You guys talk about sharing armor then go snipe with the er-large laser (previously the gauss/ppc).

I've watched you play at least 1 game today. In your SNV. Grim Portico.

I can also see all your stats.

It doesn't matter how far away you are. What matters is how the actual missiles work and how much damage you're doing relatively within the same period of time.

I don't do ERLL sniping. If I have Gauss I'm probably at 300-400m and it's with a bunch of CERMLs or LLs and ERMLs.

The 2 MLs on an Awesome are to shake lights and brush people back - you shouldn't be within 180m.

At 300-500m it's going to put a good 35-45 damage on the CT and STs on a moving target, losing only 2-6 missiles to a single AMS. With TAG it's literally spreading damage less than LBX do. It's not great, but it's not bad.

At 300-500m your CLRM60s have to be stagger fired, spreading your 60 pts out over an almost 3.5 second stream. This means even a bad poker will get back into cover for 1/2 of your missiles vs almost 0 against the Awesome, as they hit in 1 bunch, like SRMs because the Awesome can front 45 tubes. You are losing 11- 25 missiles to a single AMS and they spread significantly more, both because CLRMs and because no TAG.

If I had a Clan laservomit build with a 3.5 second burn duration to do 60 damage it would be a joke build. You do that with missiles, which are even less accurate and reliable and don't get the joke.

That? That's what's funny.

This game is math. Winning, losing, it's all math. Your skills determine how you exploit that math but make no mistake - it's all math and knowing the math.

LRMs are inherently inferior. CLRMs are the worst LRM option. Sharing armor, drawing fire, shuffling with teammates (if they realize you're doing it or not), cornering and accurate concentration of fire along with well timed aggression are how matches are won. QP or group queue or MWOWC. Understanding what does damage and how is what separates a high win/loss from a mediocre or low one.

[Khobai]

Quote

Understanding what does damage and how is what separates a high win/loss from a mediocre or low one.

Yeah but youre assuming most people care about such things. They dont. Most people just play this game for fun. And if they have fun using LRMs, thats what theyll use, they dont care if their stats are bad because of it. Stats dont matter. Your life isnt over if your W/L or KDR is below 1.

The vocal minority that are obsessed with stats is the reason were getting trash like 1v1 solaris instead of actual improvements to make quickplay and faction play more fun.

The game isnt about math lol. The game is about having fun. I dont really care what people play as long as they can do like 200 damage minimum. Just dont be that guy that only does like 12 damage in an Executioner.

Are LRMs good? no. Are they fun? yes. especially when youre pelting a confused assault potato that doesnt know which way to go to escape from your LRMs lol.

Edited by Khobai, 13 December 2017 - 11:56 AM.

[Mole]

Why do people act like bringing a TAG is a must for LRMs anyway? In my experience, locks without TAG happen fast enough to be perfectly adequate. Only time TAG really comes in handy is trying to get a lock on a target that is covered by ECM and frankly if its entire purpose is to disable ECM I'd just assume bring a PPC that is capable of doing damage as well as disrupting their ECM. What 'mechs I have that do use LRMs find that their energy hardpoints and tonnage are better spent on backup weaponry that actually allows me to remain a threat at close range than they are on a TAG. Then again, I am also of the opinion that playing a build that relies on LRMs for all of its damage is a terrible idea anyway. They are far too situational to be reliable.

Khobai, on 11 December 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

Are they fun? yes. especially when youre pelting a confused assault potato that doesnt know which way to go to escape from your LRMs lol.

And these individuals are the reason LRMs are so impotent. Because the confused assault potato immediately takes to the forums to cry about LRMs being OP.

PGI is really between a rock and a hard place when it comes to LRMs. If they make them effective enough to be used competetively, then the steering wheel underhive will start a dumpster fire of threads whining about how OP LRMs are. If they make them less deadly to said underhive, then they have made them 100% useless on the competetive level. One way or another, there are going to be large portions of the population that are unhappy with LRMs.

Edited by Mole, 11 December 2017 - 02:49 PM.

[HGAK47]

You guys, you guys all on crack or something anyway. Spider 5V is the best mech why play with lurms when you can BE a lurm and fly!

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

You guys, you guys all on crack or something anyway. Spider 5V is the best mech why play with lurms when you can BE a lurm and fly!

And when you land on your target, you do about as much damage as an LRM, too.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 11 December 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

Yeah but youre assuming most people care about such things. They dont. Most people just play this game for fun. And if they have fun using LRMs, thats what theyll use, they dont care if their stats are bad because of it. Stats dont matter. Your life isnt over if your W/L or KDR is below 1.

The vocal minority that are obsessed with stats is the reason were getting trash like 1v1 solaris instead of actual improvements to make quickplay and faction play more fun.

The game isnt about math lol. The game is about having fun. I dont really care what people play as long as they can do like 200 damage minimum. Dont be that guy that only does like 12 damage in an Executioner.

Are LRMs good? no. Are they fun? yes. especially when youre pelting a confused assault potato that doesnt know which way to go to escape from your LRMs lol.

Nobody with good stats is asking for 1 v 1. Everyone who's good at this game recognizes what a terrible idea it is and how it's going to fail.

Winning is more fun than losing - everyone wants to win. The game is absolutely about math - just that for most people they mistake understanding how to play the game well means you can't ever do anything but play a Deathstrike. If you want we can get into the psychology of insecurity and why the great majority of people have a deep seated fear of actually trying to be successful at anything - from life to games, because it risks failure.

I'm all for people playing for fun. Play LRMs if you want. Go nuts, have fun. It's a game. However when someone lies and says something like 'LRMs are fine' and 'lol my SNV LRM boat is way better than the Awesome 8R' they're wrong and pointing out they're wrong benefits everyone, as it prevents misinformation from spreading.

Complaint threads are largely started and maintained by people who are angry because they don't actually understand the game. If more people actually understood the math they would be less upset and happier with the fun they are having, or even having more fun. People often make and sustain poor choices that give them bad results because they are ignorant and/or stubborn. Not because it's actually more fun.

Mole, on 11 December 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

Why do people act like bringing a TAG is a must for LRMs anyway? In my experience, locks without TAG happen fast enough to be perfectly adequate. Only time TAG really comes in handy is trying to get a lock on a target that is covered by ECM and frankly if its entire purpose is to disable ECM I'd just assume bring a PPC that is capable of doing damage as well as disrupting their ECM. What 'mechs I have that do use LRMs find that their energy hardpoints and tonnage are better spent on backup weaponry that actually allows me to remain a threat at close range than they are on a TAG. Then again, I am also of the opinion that playing a build that relies on LRMs for all of its damage is a terrible idea anyway. They are far too situational to be reliable.

Tag also tightens missile spread and improves tracking. It's not just about lock time, it's about putting as much damage as possible on the CT. It also strongly motivates people to get their own locks.

[Mole]

MischiefSC, on 11 December 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

Tag also tightens missile spread and improves tracking. It's not just about lock time, it's about putting as much damage as possible on the CT. It also strongly motivates people to get their own locks.

Oh, it does? All this time I thought it just improved lock speed and negated ECM.

[MischiefSC]

Mole, on 11 December 2017 - 03:58 PM, said:

Oh, it does? All this time I thought it just improved lock speed and negated ECM.

It improves tracking, which helps focus missiles towards the CT (which they're aiming at anyway) and tightens the spread. Artemis + Tag stacks and provides your missiles with a much, much better focus on the torsos.

[Brain Cancer]

MischiefSC, on 11 December 2017 - 04:11 PM, said:

It improves tracking, which helps focus missiles towards the CT (which they're aiming at anyway) and tightens the spread. Artemis + Tag stacks and provides your missiles with a much, much better focus on the torsos.

Of course, the disadvantage here is that unless you have a high mount, it's also frequently requiring exposure to get and keep that TAG on target for the entire flight in. Awesomes of course can head-TAG while hull down, while a Supernova is actually better off with a high-mount NARC (and being Clan, it's lighter) so it can pod a target while hull down and pound it, keeping it's arm mounts exclusively for lasers. (Your fellow missile boaters will also love you, of course.)

Awesomes are quirked well enough to make their LRM45 respectably good for a lurmboat. Supernovas have their own options- they can spam more tubes, or mount NARC for high-stability locks and team play plus superior secondary guns. Or go ATM mode instead, natch.

[MischiefSC]

Brain Cancer, on 12 December 2017 - 09:38 AM, said:

Of course, the disadvantage here is that unless you have a high mount, it's also frequently requiring exposure to get and keep that TAG on target for the entire flight in. Awesomes of course can head-TAG while hull down, while a Supernova is actually better off with a high-mount NARC (and being Clan, it's lighter) so it can pod a target while hull down and pound it, keeping it's arm mounts exclusively for lasers. (Your fellow missile boaters will also love you, of course.)

Awesomes are quirked well enough to make their LRM45 respectably good for a lurmboat. Supernovas have their own options- they can spam more tubes, or mount NARC for high-stability locks and team play plus superior secondary guns. Or go ATM mode instead, natch.

Again though, 3.5 second stream of missiles.

You're losing almost 1/2 your missiles to just ONE AMS.

A SNV LRM boat is good against bads who are just wandering in the open.

Again, try to pitch a 28 ton, 22 slot, 20 heat laser that does 60 damage but has a cone of fire effect, jiggling around... with a 3.5 second burn time.

People would laugh in your face because it would be the worst laser ever.

Now pitch a MRM 45 that launches like SRMs in one burst, has a 3.2 second cooldown, 14.25 heat, 24 tons and 12 slots.

There's plenty of people who would take that seriously.

I can get into cover before the whole SNV burn arrives. The LRM45 from the Awesome are an issue.

We've done a bunch of tests while looking at the viability of LRMs. In the open on Polar the Awesome was the only LRM boat, IS or Clan, that could be any sort of threat to a laservomit BLR or MAD.

[Quandoo]

875 Exp
150K Cbills
775 dmg

and only 1 kill and two most damage dealt is not good.
dmg is ok, nothing super special but solid. cbills is a joke, should be 300-500k per game and exp should be 2-3x times higher. you gain cbills for beeing in fight, assisting, beeing close to your team members and enemies.

whats not solid is the kind of damage you did - damaged whole mechs, 300 dmg to kill one.
lasers / ballictics kill with 150dmg and are more solid even if half damage was done.

if there is a good light player, he will find and kill you with ease.
50% of all times you play lrm, you will fail. beeing good means you have 600dmg in every game at least.
the real good ones are around 1400 dmg, 5-6 solo kills

Edited by Quandoo, 12 December 2017 - 11:09 AM.

[JRcam4643]

Hey if anyone can check and see if the audio in this vid is better than the other videos I originally posted that would be great.

[Exard3k]

JRcam4643, on 19 December 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Hey if anyone can check and see if the audio in this vid is better than the other videos I originally posted that would be great.

Chainfire main weapon group. nothing more to say. Audio is fine, didn't watch more than 10secs though

Edited by Exard3k, 19 December 2017 - 08:23 AM.

[JRcam4643]

Thanks Exard.

[Burke IV]

Mole, on 11 December 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

Why do people act like bringing a TAG is a must for LRMs anyway?

Well me personally the reg in this game is well known... so i figured if the server is registering that little tag it cant relly deny me my other shots to reg can it? I got no idea if it works or not

[Maker L106]

There are so many "paper racers" in here it hurts. Are LRMs good? **** no. Does that make them somehow unuseable? Also no.

The LRM (read any indirect firing weapon system) is almost MANDATED to require two people to operate properly in this game and that's assuming your LRM / ATM / CSSRM mech is actually able to keep up with the group or demands. Things like a stormcrow running LRM15's or something akin to that with a tag / ER Smalls is in NO way hindering a PUG match so long as he has some other guys working with him to do things like, oh I don't know. NARC the opposing team from time to time. I know I sound like a broken record but there's so many times I use that and its not even for LRM support, its just to highlight ONE guy on the enemy team that needs to die and make him the most visable enemy. LRMs help because he's now transmitting thanks to NARC.

This also allows you to fire from safety, usually before the main fight starts, and often with impunity. How this goes unnoticed by the top tier players is likely because they don't need / want / care / etc: about having something in that regard in the game in the first place. And a lot of other people are in the same boat, no one likes getting shot by something they can't do jack **** about. Even if it isn't super effective it's aggravating. Find cover, bring AMS, bring ECM or stfu. LRMs are bad, yes. unuseable? no. Used by Meta top players, of course not.

I get in FP why they likely aren't used. But in QP, where a majority of the players spend their time? It may be the bottom of the barrel so to speak but you'd be surprised what happens down here.

[metallio]

I've always enjoyed LRMs. You can shape how the enemy moves if they're not aggressive enough...just keep a constant rain going while your teammates reposition and you don't even have to be hitting the targets for LRMs to be useful...the clan version doesn't even really have the dead spot close up (though it still hurts dmg), and if you're second line fighting they're marvelous for blurring vision while sandblasting.

LRM boats are the most fun, but if you stick to LRM 30 or less they're handy as heck without nerfing your team badly.

LRM boats when you've forced some poor ******* to do something stupid are deadly...just can't really count on that.

[JRcam4643]

Here are some updated missile builds.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

JRcam4643, on 12 March 2018 - 05:14 PM, said:

Here are some updated missile builds.

not sure if you're serious or just trolling, dude.

I mean.. you don't even use a TAG, let alone a beagle on sth with lurms, streaks AND atms.
*no need to even look further than that*



..gotta be trollin'.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 12 March 2018 - 05:34 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

JRcam4643, on 03 December 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

LRMs have always been pretty good for me and I'm convinced they could be for anybody. A lot of people like to hate on them and claim they are no good but really it's more cause they are afraid of LRMs. I'm satisfied this video proves they are good.

What's with lurm enthusiasts and mental gymnastics?! We claim they are no good because we're afraid of them?!

Do you know what the average gamer does when he's scared of a weapon? He calls for nerfs. Do you know what we lum haters do?

We call for buffs to lurms.

That's because we think they're a **** weapon. That's why we claim they're a **** weapon. IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. Pun intended.

Jesus christ. It's the entire opposite conclusion.

This is frigging mind boggling. And you're not the first "lurms are good" person to do it. It's actually quite common. So much so that there's definitely some kind of co-relation between a pilot's ability to process information (or not) and their usage of lurms.

This is not normal.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 12 March 2018 - 05:58 PM.