29 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

And since I rarely see them (Terra Therma being an exceptionally rare map since it usually comes up as the alternative to maps with unclear visibility and sight lines, the antithesis of the current metas), I've long since been wondering if perhaps map choices were a mistake... or if the game should enlist the "lesser of evils" approach of throwing a list of maps based on a theme, such as "Hot map" and bam, hot maps only. Cold maps theme with cold maps only. Etc.

Perhaps as we get an ACTUAL ******* SELECTION of maps such as "Green world" "Rock world"... or whatever the hell PGI called the "Biome" names for MW5, we might actually have more interesting themes like this match / faction play takes place on a rocky area... and then a selection of rock themed maps.

But as it stands, the current map voting system sucks because any time Terra comes up, anything else also displayed is cold and thus people gravitate to that instead as it plays right into the hands of the laser vomit meta in which lasers are the only top tier weapons supposedly.

(Edit: Realized that "being an exception" made it sound like I didn't like it rather than the intended I've seen it exactly Three Times since it has been revamped sometime last year..or has it been two years since then? I barely know what the map really even looks like or where anything is because it is THAT impossibly rare to get onto it.)

Edited by Koniving, 09 December 2017 - 04:45 AM.

[Khobai]

of course map voting was a mistake

everyone has been saying that since they added map voting

we need random maps/gamemodes and we need to be able to choose our mechs after knowing what map/gamemode were playing on

but if they go back to random they also need to fix the stupid gamemodes like escort and incursion. And assault and domination gamemodes need to be less like skirmish.

fix your game pgi. nobody wants 1v1 solaris. we want the actual game fixed.

Edited by Khobai, 08 December 2017 - 01:49 PM.

[suffocater]

So, Tourmaline Desert an Rubellite Oasis, both getting picked often, both 2°C hotter than Terra Therma, are no good?

[Wolfways]

suffocater, on 08 December 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

So, Tourmaline Desert an Rubellite Oasis, both getting picked often, both 2°C hotter than Terra Therma, are no good?

Tourmaline gets chosen because it has better sight. Terra Therma is fairly dark, and does actually cause more heat depending on where you are standing .
Rubillite Oasis gets chosen because it's new and is nothing but anti-LRM cover (brawler paradise).

[Khobai]

terra therma has those super hot rivers of lava that people always overheat in though

[Koniving]

suffocater, on 08 December 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

So, Tourmaline Desert an Rubellite Oasis, both getting picked often, both 2°C hotter than Terra Therma, are no good?

Temp statements are as meaningless as gravity statements. Pure fluff.

Gravity is 2.8 times Earth gravity. (Otherwise you'd float for a while as momentum-inertia decelerates, shifts, and lets gravity bring you almost to a standstill BEFORE you start to fall. Heavy **** does not suddenly change directions and start to fall. In fact if something heavy went straight up into the air with enough force, there'd be a bit of time where even 20 tons would literally stop in the air before gradually starting to fall; I know this because even half ton objects do it and the heavier it is, the longer that delay is due to resistance to momentum shifts in objects of increasing mass.)

Edit: Video about that subject. This touches exclusively on falling, but introduces another concept.


While about car crashes, there's still quite a bit applicable to flying...and decelerating, fuel consumption, losing all momentum...and it building back up in the form of a fall. Or in this example, crumpling.



Also: Caustic Valley is the hottest map though it isn't listed as such.-- at least in one location.
Terra Therma reduces cooling by 25% and thermal cap by 20%.
Caustic Valley reduces cooling by 15% and thermal cap by 10%.
Tourmaline Desert does the same as Caustic Valley.
The CALDERA of Caustic Valley reduces cooling by 40% and thermal cap by 30%.

Rubelite reduces cooling by 10% and thermal cap by 10%.

Lava zones inside Terra Therma reduce cooling by 60% but heat cap by only 12%.

Edited by Koniving, 08 December 2017 - 02:25 PM.

[Koniving]

Koniving, on 08 December 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Also: Caustic Valley is the hottest map though it isn't listed as such.-- at least in one location.
Terra Therma reduces cooling by 25% and thermal cap by 20%.
Caustic Valley reduces cooling by 15% and thermal cap by 10%.
Tourmaline Desert does the same as Caustic Valley.
The CALDERA of Caustic Valley reduces cooling by 40% and thermal cap by 30%.

Rubelite reduces cooling by 10% and thermal cap by 10%.

Lava zones inside Terra Therma reduce cooling by 60% but heat cap by only 12%.

In other words:
Rubelite is the coldest "hot map" in the game.
Caustic, Tourmaline are both equal.
Unless in the center crater, then it is the second hottest part (used to be hottest but the latest data on the heat simulator shows it is now outclassed by the lava zones of Terra Therma).
Terra Therma is overall the hottest map on the entire game (though in 2015, Caustic, Terra and Tourmaline all reduced cooling and thermal cap by a universal 25% meaning they were identical).

[Khobai]

Quote

Temp statements are as meaningless as gravity statements. Pure fluff.

I thought the temperature of the maps affects your starting heat value

isnt it loosely based on the values from maximum tech?

so like +1 starting heat for every 10 C above 50

and -1 starting heat for every 10 C below -30

Edited by Khobai, 08 December 2017 - 02:08 PM.

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 08 December 2017 - 02:07 PM, said:

I thought the temperature of the maps affects your starting heat value

isnt it loosely based on the values from maximum tech?

so like +1 starting heat for every 10 C above 50

and -1 starting heat for every 10 C below -30

The fluff is purely fluff. Karl Berg had settled that in 2013. (Typo, 2014.) Fixed.

The values are fairly strict percentage-based changes. There are two values. Environmental Cooling Rate Modifier and Enviromental Heat Cap Modifier.

These percentages then apply to your total cooling rate and thermal cap set by your heatsinks and apply after quirks do.

IE say you have a cooling rate of 3.0 You have quirks enhancing your cooling rate by an additional 12% as skill-induced quirks and you are on Caustic Valley which then removes 15% of your cooling capabilities.

3.0 heat/second cooling rate +12% faster cooling quirks (3.36 heat/secodn) -15 environmental cooling modifier) = 2.856 heat/second cooling rate.

Whatever system you're describing is completely made up.
https://keikun17.git...heat_simulator/
Though this says it hasn't been updated in a long time, the core file it reads to get this data pretty much confirms it to be accurate to today's versions of the maps listed. (Also despite not saying recent updates, it has the recent changes to the maps it has listed so I am under the impression that it has been auto-updating map information, as it still said that update date back when all hot maps were 25% and 25% reductions to your overall cooling and heat caps. It does not however have any updates regarding the new skill tree or anything that would require new manual inputs. I had to dig for Rubelite's data myself.

Edited by Koniving, 08 December 2017 - 02:43 PM.

[Koniving]

To follow up... A quirk then applies during the environmental modifiers.

The quirk called "External Heat Transfer" then takes those Environmental Cooling and Environmental Heat Cap modifiers and in the two current instances of the quirk will either cut them in half (Hellslinger) or remove them entirely (Night Gyr).

(Honestly, did you think PGI picked up a tabletop book before beginning production on MW5? Paul himself admitted to only having played 2 hours of tabletop and if I recall had a relatively low opinion of its simplicity [which only tells me he never looked at the more advanced books], and the only other tabletop guru they (David) had possessed years of experience with tabletop gaming..... in the form of Warhammer..

Spoiler

David in an ATD (45 I think) once stated the tabletop Awesome 8Q was heat neutral and could fire PPCs nonstop all day, and said that they increased the heatcap and firing frequency to prevent that. Meanwhile the Awesome 8Q has to fire its PPCs in a pattern of 3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2 every 10 seconds and even firing 3 at a time once every 10 seconds it would shut down in (does the math)... in 150 seconds (2.5 minutes) without accounting for the heat penalties of even basic tabletop. Now there's a bit more of a ball of chance here but with a simple Tac Ops rule, the Awesome would melt down its reactor in under ... well hell I got Megamek here. Some civilian targets. Destroy all enemies. Just AI players (100 turns can go by super fast like this; I find it awesome for testing original creations). Just need some super aggressive very dumb pilots.

4 Awesome 8Qs. 300 targets of 5 to 15 people each.
3 turns (30 seconds). Awesome 8Q controlled by Test Princess died inside cockpit. Personal injuries due to a combination of mech heat, heatsink melting and standing in heavy woods which caught fire on the third turn and quickly spread over two more turns to completely surround him.
Actually reading this...that was a *********** since many are only firing one or two weapons at a time. Okay manual test.

20 targets of civilian crowds and some civilian vehicles and a single Awesome 8Q.
10 seconds in already had to check for a heatsink melting (due to reaching 5 heat over the 28 heatsinks with 30 heat from PPCs and 3 heat from moving at running speed.)
20 seconds in, melted a heatsink already.
30 seconds in, no damage but the pilot checks against heatsinks are getting hard, barely slipped by. At 11 excess heat now.
40 seconds. Lost 5 heatsinks. Now down to 22 heatsinks. 17 excess.
50 seconds. Pilot has received 3 injuries out of 5 HP due to severe burns and has lost consciousness (with two more checks in case if he didn't). An additional 3 heatsinks have fried, reducing it to 19 single heatsinks. The current excess heat is at 28 (so not yet hitting the 30 mark at any point in time, and it is generally assumed these PPCs are fired one at time, especially since each PPC is being lobbed at an entirely separate target by choice). The mech had fallen over by this point.
60 seconds in. No further actions have been performed. The heat is now at 9.

210 seconds in, the pilot has regained consciousness successfully and attempted to stand the mech. He succeeds. I then fire 2 PPCs. The heat from standing up and firing the two PPCs have destroyed another 1 heatsink. Now there are now 18 single heatsinks (or 9 Doubles) remaining.
230 seconds. The reactor has taken a critical hit from an incidentally armed civilian vehicle. The mech now produces an extra 5 heat per second. The pilot has taken injuries, both from the heat buildup and the impact and has died.

If the pilot had not lost consciousness at the 50 second mark at the rate he was going the mech or the pilot might have been rendered worthless in just 70 seconds of spacing 3 PPCs out every 10 seconds.
So basic rules David was wrong, advanced rules David was extremely wrong, and in either case despite the goal to make heat matter in MWO... heat actually matters significantly more in even the most basic form of tabletop.

There's your lead guys for MWO. We shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking they even know what MaxTech is. Otherwise we might have real pilot skills instead of mech tweaks called "Skills."

Edited by Koniving, 08 December 2017 - 03:25 PM.

[Kalimaster]

I miss the old Terra Therma, but people hated it, and they tend to hate the new one. Now that the challenge for C-Bills is over, people are skipping over Rubellite as well. They could make a good hot map if they wished. Say a few tunnels (long and opening into caves that breach the surface) varied terrain, good sight lines, smoke in some places around the edges. etc.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 08 December 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

And since I rarely see them (Terra Therma being an exception since it usually comes up as the alternative to maps with unclear visibility and sight lines, the antithesis of the current metas), I've long since been wondering if perhaps map choices were a mistake... or if the game should enlist the "lesser of evils" approach of throwing a list of maps based on a theme, such as "Hot map" and bam, hot maps only. Cold maps theme with cold maps only. Etc.

Perhaps as we get an ACTUAL ******* SELECTION of maps such as "Green world" "Rock world"... or whatever the hell PGI called the "Biome" names for MW5, we might actually have more interesting themes like this match / faction play takes place on a rocky area... and then a selection of rock themed maps.

But as it stands, the current map voting system sucks because any time Terra comes up, anything else also displayed is cold and thus people gravitate to that instead as it plays right into the hands of the laser vomit meta in which lasers are the only top tier weapons supposedly.

Map choices has always been a mistake. But too many precious snowflakes ragequit if they have to play a map that might be difficult for them, so there we have it.

For actual play quality, random maps was always the best way.

[Koniving]

Khobai's pick a mech after isn't bad (and even is somewhat similar to lore, you'd learn about the area of operations first and then pick something based on that)... but sadly that would require a complete rework of what they have.

Perhaps PGI can sell us quickplay decks and let us pick from one of four mechs in the deck or toggle decks at will?

....god please no. ....That disgusts me.

Sadly Khobai's solution would not lead to pretty results on the developer's end and may lead to such a monetization method as probably the only real motivation for making such a change in the first place... as well as being the easiest method for doing it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 08 December 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

Khobai's pick a mech after isn't bad (and even is somewhat similar to lore, you'd learn about the area of operations first and then pick something based on that)... but sadly that would require a complete rework of what they have.

Perhaps PGI can sell us quickplay decks and let us pick from one of four mechs in the deck or toggle decks at will?

....god please no. ....That disgusts me.

Sadly Khobai's solution would not lead to pretty results on the developer's end and may lead to such a monetization method as probably the only real motivation for making such a change in the first place... as well as being the easiest method for doing it.

I think there is a simple, non monetized answer. We have 2 drop decks, base in FP and Scouting, yes? Before drop, set up an alternate mech that one can switch too after random map. If Player is too lazy too set up, or the like, too bad for them. Thus if you plan to drop heavy, you set a second mech as your standby. Etc. Takes the player 30 more seconds any time he wants to change weight class, but so what?

[Koniving]

So like a two mech deck?

We're still gonna hear complaints but at least two isn't too bad.

[Koniving]

A lot of wait time issues could drop by droppping weightclass from the system.

Consider 2012.
Metas changed daily. Even when balance was more stable it really was still a matter of the flavor of the day as gravitation went towards a direction and soon the counter, then the counter was dominant til a new counter... and eventually we had quite a dynamic field in which builds were great this round but then terrible the next since the entire enemy composition had changed. One great example was 7 assaults and a light versus 4 assaults, 2 mediums and 2 heavies. Our 4 assaults were obliterated in less than a minute. The two heavies (Dragon and Catapult) and 2 mediums (Hunchback and Centurion) then proceeded to level all 7 assaults and the light and mop the floor with them.... in the middle of an open field circle-jerk with the heavies and mediums in the middle of a circle of fire.

Now imagine how MWO's current metas would fall apart under such rapidly changing combat conditions; what is good this time sucks next time, etc., etc., leading to players using builds that can compensate for a few different kinds of threats... and ultimately a reduction in boating overall. You'll still see dedicated builds but they won't be the end-all be-all... just like they weren't back then.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 08 December 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

So like a two mech deck?

We're still gonna hear complaints but at least two isn't too bad.

We will here complaints no matter what. But I can't think of too many ways that would not be overly complicated, and be the least likely to mess up drop weights, etc.

If a person can't "get it right" with two choices, then they are just going to whine regardless. Sure, one might not be able to fully "tune" their drop to perfection..... so what? If you only play in "perfect" conditions, you need to give up wargames and stick to candy crush.

[Shadowomega1]

Actually Vitric Forge is the hottest map but that is faction play only.

[FupDup]

suffocater, on 08 December 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

So, Tourmaline Desert an Rubellite Oasis, both getting picked often, both 2°C hotter than Terra Therma, are no good?

The key difference is that those maps are actually well-designed maps which just-so-happen to be hot. Terra Therma and Caustic are examples of badly designed maps (somehow made even worse by their reworks) that just-so-happen to be hot.

[Jonathan8883]

It's too hard for me to see on Terra Therma, so I always vote against it. Too dark.