73 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

i did finally get an rl kill for the second time (the first was on the newtech pts with a troll archer build), it was in that grasshopper i won in that event awhile back. i built up a laser vomit build and i ended up with a spare half ton and free slot. my usual rule of thumb is to use extra slots for almost anything else. but with a vomit build, full to the brim with heat sinks and all the hardpoints in use, there just isnt anything you can install for a half ton. armor was already full up, and nothing used ammo. so i put an rl10 in a head slot. its an extra weapon i often forget about until my mech gets stripped. one day after loosing a torso and most of my guns i realized i had the rl10. the enemy i was fighting decided to capitalize and closed into brawling range, he wasn't doing much better than i was. so i loosed my rockets and he exploded.

of course one lucky shot does not a viable weapons system make. ive tried a number of rl equipped builds and none of them had managed a kill. i suppose they are good at stripping opponents in solaris, but they are too damn weak most of the time. they scatter like a mofo and that minimum range pretty much forces you to use it as a scattershot weapon.

still think they should fire single rockets at higher damage one at a time. they could rapid fire so as to maintain their surge damage niche. but you couldn't troll with them because firing a single rocket from multiple launchers would trip ghost heat. they would still qualify as single use since reloads are verboten.

Edited by LordNothing, 09 March 2019 - 07:04 PM.

[MechaBattler]

I've since found them not worth the weight, most builds can be improved with the weight. But I do have an Archer with several rocks. They can skin assaults when chain fired. But it's just too limited.

[Koniving]

MechaBattler, on 10 March 2019 - 12:49 AM, said:

I've since found them not worth the weight, most builds can be improved with the weight. But I do have an Archer with several rocks. They can skin assaults when chain fired. But it's just too limited.

I've found an interesting trick.

Some mechs still exist where a 20 rack of missiles(or rockets) does not get 20 tubes.

A rocket launcher in one of these.... nets really cool results such as:

• Only firing as many rockets as you have tubes, leaving the remaining rockets to be fired on your next time pressing the button.
  
• Significantly reduced spread, as the 'spread' mechanic is dependent on the number of projectiles flying through the air at once.
  
• Only producing as much heat as the volley you actually delivered (for example and I'm not gonna look it up, pretend an RL 20 does 5 heat, you'd generate 2.5 if only 10 rockets fired).

Now for the frustrating thing...
Trying to get the RL into the launcher with the fewest tubes, and your LRM into the launcher with the most... for some goddamn reason its inclined to go the OTHER way around....

[Koniving]

An Atlas S for example can (when the RLs are packed into the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th launchers) fire RL-20s 6 rockets at a time for a total of 4 uses each (the final use would only be a super narrow spread 2 rockets).

Interesting side note: The Kraken is the only Atlas with two launchers at 10 tubes each, no other Atlas has a second launcher with more than 6 tubes.

Flea Romeo can get 2 uses out of an RL-20 at 10 rockets per volley. (Actually kinda handy, considering its light weight).



Its a shame that the Raven 3L was "fixed" with a bigger launcher...
Imagine an RL-20 with this launcher, given it would only fire 1 at a time and save the rest til you fire again...

[MechaBattler]

That's pretty neat. It'd be kinda cool if PGI gave us the ability to individual fire the rockets per click. Not sure about the usefulness. But at least you could stretch out the use of them.

[thievingmagpi]

simple answer?

they aren't.

[Koniving]

I was about to list stalkers in terms of viability for RL platforms since they have so much variety...

Then I noticed this.

Can someone confirm this or let me know if it's just a bug in Smurfy.

[Koniving]

In the interest of Rocket Launcher reusability:
The Stalker 3FB is the worst (both launchers have 20 tubes)
Misery has a 6 tube launcher...and nothing else.
All following mechs have 6 tubes in the STs:
3H follows (20 tubes in the arms, though 6 tubes in the STs)
4N follows that, due to the poor number of launchers (the tube counts would work well with getting multi-use RLs though)
All remaining Stalkers has 10 tubes in the arms
5M stands out due to number of launchers and poor tube counts (which makes it perfect for rockets, also a good number of energy hardpoints).

Pretty sure Victor is upgraded from this: 3M (10, 5, 2)
Otherwise it'd be my favorite rocket platform.

[panzer1b]

In 2019, given the fact that i only recall seeing them ONCE on a mech, and not once being killed by them, prolly useless.

On paper it makes sense to use them if you have a used missile slot AND .5-1.5 tons that there is NO way to utilize cause of slot limits/hardpoint limits to improve your main build. That said, ive NEVER seen a single case in game to justify bringing them even in the above case, you are better off just upping the engine by a rating or 2 rather then using the tonnage for a useless gimmicky weapon which will rarely if ever do anything.

What killed them was the min range added after PGI realized the super trolling potential. i can understand why they did it (to prevent suicde bomber lights running up to 10m and deleting a dire from the front), but the ONLY good thing rockets had going for them was that ability for a light mech to delete a larger one that wasnt paying attention or badly positioned by shoving them up their arss. As it stands, the damage is so spread out and the single shot nature makes them pathetic weapons. If you want to suicide bomb, bring 8 SRM-6s on a clam mech and that actually works albeit very difficult to pull off cause of paper clams.

A bit off topic, but its sorta why consumables are such a huge thing, they cost NOTHING but skill points to bring (and even without you can still bring 1 of them free). No tonnage, no slots, and airstrikes properly placed is 200 dmg. Strikes need to either take up tonnage or slots to be any bit balanced. Yes they are 1 time use, but they are so effective that they should require hardware on the mech and not just a free damage button.

[Jman5]

MechaBattler, on 10 March 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

That's pretty neat. It'd be kinda cool if PGI gave us the ability to individual fire the rockets per click. Not sure about the usefulness. But at least you could stretch out the use of them.

Individual rockets or individual rocket launchers? Yeah, it probably wouldn't be very useful to fire rockets individually. However, it's very useful to fire your rocket launchers individually. If you put all your rocket launchers in one weapon group and set it to chain fire you can avoid ghost heat, and overkill.

Edited by Jman5, 11 March 2019 - 06:21 AM.

[Koniving]

Jman5, on 10 March 2019 - 11:55 AM, said:

Individual rockets or individual rocket launchers? Yeah, it probably wouldn't be very useful to fire rockets individually, it's very useful to fire your rocket launchers individually. If you put all your rocket launchers in one weapon group and set it to chain fire you can avoid ghost heat, and overkill.

MWO's hit detection is far from perfect, so once you fire all the rockets, you're done even with 1 launcher at a time.

While I'm not sure about 1 rocket at a time, firing fewer rockets at a time does seem to garner better hit detection. But this is pretty much true with any projectile.

[Khobai]

rocket launchers arnt worth the weight

they should really get multiple shots. making them 2-3 shots with a fairly long cooldown would be better.

[Koniving]

I think double damage would be enough. (To make up for the fact that we have double armor and structure). Or be able to split their rockets up by choice rather than having to rig them in mechs with insufficient tubes.

Lets just go with both.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 10 March 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

I think double damage would be enough. (To make up for the fact that we have double armor and structure). Or be able to split their rockets up by choice rather than having to rig them in mechs with insufficient tubes.

Lets just go with both.

So you want them to do 4 damage per missile? They currently do 2 damage per missile, i.e. the RL20 does 40 damage. The Jihadist Javelin can already pack a 240 alpha strike and you'd increase that the 480...

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 10 March 2019 - 02:19 PM, said:

So you want them to do 4 damage per missile? They currently do 2 damage per missile, i.e. the RL20 does 40 damage. The Jihadist Javelin can already pack a 240 alpha strike and you'd increase that the 480...

The Jihadi Javelin you fear is a one-shot mech, it doesn't matter if that alpha is 240 or 480, you've already argued it has the potential to "oneshot fresh assaults from the front", it can't one-shot the same 'mech twice in a match. It has one volley, on one mech, one opportunity, to seize a kill, or let it slip.

If you're arguing to balance top down because of it's potential that's fine but we should also look to nerf those ATM48 S.Nova's and the laser vomit builds that can act multiple times per match, we've also got to nerf those pesky Piranhas which have a higher potential than those Javelins you fear.

[FupDup]

VonBruinwald, on 10 March 2019 - 03:54 PM, said:

The Jihadi Javelin you fear is a one-shot mech, it doesn't matter if that alpha is 240 or 480, you've already argued it has the potential to "oneshot fresh assaults from the front", it can't one-shot the same 'mech twice in a match. It has one volley, on one mech, one opportunity, to seize a kill, or let it slip.

If you're arguing to balance top down because of it's potential that's fine but we should also look to nerf those ATM48 S.Nova's and the laser vomit builds that can act multiple times per match, we've also got to nerf those pesky Piranhas which have a higher potential than those Javelins you fear.

Snovas are at least big and slow, and ATMs in general have to deal with the various counters to missiles that exist. The Fishbot is nasty but the fact that it takes longer to do its job is in fact very important because it gives you much more opportunity to fight back.

My stance of RLs is that they need to be reworked into a multi-shot weapon with lower damage per shot/salvo (still very high damage per ton, but not 40 alpha strike for 1.5 tons kind of high). Whether this means allowing RL ammo to be carried, or making RLs shoot individual rockets one at a time (likely higher damage per missile) with a cooldown between shots, or whatever else can be debated. Whatever happens they just have to be multi-shot in some form or another.

Otherwise they'll never be more than a gag weapon similar to the Direstar 11 ERPPC build. I don't want any item or mech to be limited to those kind of gimmicks (some things will always be more popular/common than others but it shouldn't be this extreme).

PS: Specifically about the "240 damage not being much different from 480 damage" point, having the RL20 do 80 damage per shot like Kon suggested might actually allow you to fire only 2x RL20 at a time to kill or almost kill fresh mechs (160 damage, only a tiny bit of Ghost Heat) so that you'd have a pretty realistic chance of getting more than just one kill with the build.

Edited by FupDup, 10 March 2019 - 04:08 PM.

[Khobai]

rocket launchers already have ghost heat specifically because they do too much damage in one volley.

so how does doubling their damage make sense? it doesnt. because PGI would just halve the ghost heat limit in response to doubling the damage to keep the ghost heat penalties proportional.

again the better way to fix them is to give them 2-3 shots and a longish cooldown. that makes them worth their tonnage without the damage per volley getting out of hand. so instead of a one shot weapon it would be a two or three shot weapon that you could use sporadically throughout the match.

FupDup, on 10 March 2019 - 02:19 PM, said:

So you want them to do 4 damage per missile? They currently do 2 damage per missile, i.e. the RL20 does 40 damage. The Jihadist Javelin can already pack a 240 alpha strike and you'd increase that the 480...

exactly. doubling the damage would be irresponsibly stupid and would largely defeat the purpose of why rocket launchers currently have ghost heat.

doubling or tripling the number of times rocket launchers can be used, with a longish cooldown in between each use, makes far more sense.

rocket launchers arnt bad because their damage per trigger pull is too low. rocket launchers are bad because the total damage they can inflict before running out of ammo isnt worth the tonnage investment.

Edited by Khobai, 10 March 2019 - 05:45 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 March 2019 - 05:38 PM, said:

rocket launchers already have ghost heat specifically because they do too much damage in one volley.

so how does doubling their damage make sense? it doesnt. because PGI would just halve the ghost heat limit in response to doubling the damage to keep the ghost heat penalties proportional.

again the better way to fix them is to give them 2-3 shots and a longish cooldown. that makes them worth their tonnage without the damage per volley getting out of hand. so instead of a one shot weapon it would be a two or three shot weapon that you could use sporadically throughout the match.

How about something like 5-7 damage per missile, one missile at a time, total number of shots is based on the launcher size (i.e. 10 shots for RL10), with 5+ second cooldown between shots?

This would of course also entail removing the min range, making them pinpoint accurate or at least pretty accurate, removal of Ghost Heat, and probably way more health per missile so they aren't totally useless against even a single AMS.

That would still provide a pretty good damage-per-ton ratio without the gimmicky trolling effect they have now.

Edited by FupDup, 10 March 2019 - 06:14 PM.

[LordNothing]

MechaBattler, on 10 March 2019 - 10:49 AM, said:

That's pretty neat. It'd be kinda cool if PGI gave us the ability to individual fire the rockets per click. Not sure about the usefulness. But at least you could stretch out the use of them.

useful if you up the damage. gh can prevent trolling and you can dump the minimum range and tighten spread. not to mention you can balance it like a normal weapon. the overall damage potential of the weapon goes up and it becomes a viable option. want to keep the burst damage niche? make it rapid fire.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 10 March 2019 - 02:19 PM, said:

So you want them to do 4 damage per missile? They currently do 2 damage per missile, i.e. the RL20 does 40 damage. The Jihadist Javelin can already pack a 240 alpha strike and you'd increase that the 480...

Welp.

They're "not worth the weight", when fired 20 at a time they have poor hit detection, the game CANNOT register more than 30 explosions on a server within a given 0.01 second instance (so basically you're a moron if you fire 2 RL-20s at once, space them out just slightly) that guy can do it once, have a huge chunk of his missiles keep getting "queued" to the next frame, increasing the likelihood of them not registering at all (versus the typical laser boat being able to do an 80, no hit detection issues and instead of being good for 240 damage in a single go, it'd be good for a full 30 minute match if the pilot somehow survived that long). As for counter play, got a simple one for that -- 0.5 HP per launcher. You can get through the armor of a Jihadist Javelin in a single shot anyway, nobody would ever do it again.

See, in tabletop the said crazy build could do 240 damage, too, but over there translated to here its 480 damage.

So, yeah. Why not?

(Edit: 38 simultaneous explosions, not 30).