219 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

I think the idea of weighing damage is flawed though simply because it's impossible to tell what damage actually contributed to the kill without some sort of human judging.

no it isnt

theres only four ways to kill a mech:

1) head destruction
2) CT destruction
3) ST destruction with ISXL and both STs with CXL/LFE
4) Leg destruction of both legs

depending which of those ways the mech died, thats the damage that would be treated as lethal, and qualify for the lethal damage multiplier.

yes legging a mech might make it easier to apply lethal damage, but unless the mech actually dies from being legged, it wouldnt be considered lethal damage. if you destroy one leg on a light, then destroy the light with a rear CT shot, only the CT damage would be considered lethal.

youd still get bonuses for component destruction. so its not like you wouldnt still get rewarded for taking off the leg.

"non-lethal damage" just wouldnt be worth as much as lethal damage

and obviously headshots and backshots would be worth bigger multipliers, since theyre harder to hit.

Edited by Khobai, 16 December 2017 - 01:56 PM.

[Xiphias]

Khobai, on 16 December 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

no it isnt

theres only four ways to kill a mech:

1) head destruction
2) CT destruction
3) ST destruction with ISXL and both STs with CXL/LFE
4) Leg destruction of both legs

depending which of those ways the mech died, thats the damage that would be treated as lethal, and qualify for the lethal damage multiplier.

yes legging a mech might make it easier to apply lethal damage, but unless the mech actually dies from being legged, it wouldnt be considered lethal damage. if you destroy one leg on a light, then destroy the light with a rear CT shot, only the CT damage would be considered lethal.

youd still get bonuses for component destruction. so its not like you wouldnt still get rewarded for taking off the leg.

"non-lethal damage" just wouldnt be worth as much as lethal damage

and obviously headshots and backshots would be worth bigger multipliers, since theyre harder to hit.

Consider the case of a standard mech though. Imagine that both side torsos get blown cleanly off, stripping the mech of weapons. Miraculously, the CT takes no damage. Someone else then chases the mech around and kills it.

What damage should be worth more? The damage that stripped the mech of weapons rending it effectively useless or the damage that killed a neutered mech? I'd consider damage that kills a stripped mech effectively worthless most of the time, however in your system this damage is considered more valuable than the damage that actually took the weapons away.

Sure, shooting off a shield arm or deadside isn't contributing very much, but your system doesn't distinguish between shooting off the weapon arm on a Dragon vs shooting off its shield arm and one of those is far more valuable than the other.

I agree that some damage is more valuable than others, but it's not something that can be easily captured by an automatic system. Damage to one side torso or leg can cause a mech to play differently and can open up other components that could lead to the lethal shot.

Edit: To be completely clear. I agree that you could easily have a system that only counts the damage that went towards the system that resulted in the kill (e.g. CT). However, I think that such a system would be flawed in that the component that results in the kill is not always the part that contributed the most. Legging a light is usually much harder than blowing away the CT of a legged light.

Edited by Xiphias, 16 December 2017 - 02:11 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

What damage should be worth more?

considering you couldve destroyed the mech's CT in less damage than it takes to destroy both STs

id say the CT damage is worth more

shooting out both STs instead of just killing the mech's CT outright is inefficient

Edited by Khobai, 16 December 2017 - 02:11 PM.

[Xiphias]

Khobai, on 16 December 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

considering you couldve destroyed the mech's CT in less damage than it takes to destroy both STs

id say the CT damage is worth more

shooting out both STs instead of just killing the mech's CT outright is inefficient

You don't always have angles on the CT though. You're still rewarding useless damage in your system. Sometimes its more effective to kill the side torsos on mechs (e.g. a side loaded mech like a highlander). You can strip the mech by killing a side torso without killing the mech. It's actually more efficient to kill the side torso than the shoot the CT because the CT has more health. The arm on the dragon is the same way. Killing the arm is better than shooting the CT>

[Hawk819]

I'll second this, and chime in my two cents. We may Machine Guns, but an Assault `Mech is meant to Assault a position, not run around firing off six or more machine guns. Be original, please, and stop running just machine guns.

[Khobai]

Quote

You don't always have angles on the CT though. You're still rewarding useless damage in your system.

not really

because if it has a STD engine, you still have to destroy the CT to kill the mech

so destroying the CT is never useless damage. You always have to do it anyway to kill the mech.


Using your example of a Highlander, it probably has an LFE, so shooting the side torso first isnt necessarily a bad thing. because if you destroy both side torsos you kill the mech. So in your above example of shooting both side torsos before the CT, thats an example of where that wouldnt necessarily be a bad idea, because it would count as lethal damage.

But if the mech has a STD engine, then shooting out the CT first, rather than both STs then the CT, is the better way of killing it. Its way more efficient. And its pretty easy to hit assaults in the CT these days, they can barely torso twist.

Quote

The arm on the dragon is the same way. Killing the arm is better than shooting the CT>

not if the dragon is using its protruding CT and opposite ST to shield its arm like it should be doing

and you shouldnt be playing a dragon if you dont know how to do that

yes killing the arm is obviously better when you can do it easily. but its not always easy or efficient to do if the dragon is properly shielding its arm.

people wouldnt play dragons competitively if the arm was really that easy to take off. its tough to do because the arm partially clips inside the dragon's torso and leg. Plus a good part of the arm is blocked by the protruding torso.

Edited by Khobai, 16 December 2017 - 02:47 PM.

[Xiphias]

Khobai, on 16 December 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

But if the mech has a STD engine, then shooting out the CT first, rather than both STs then the CT, is the better way of killing it. Its way more efficient. And its pretty easy to hit assaults in the CT these days, they can barely torso twist.

Killing efficiently =/= most efficient damage. It's often better to cripple your enemies rather than to try and kill them outright. Reducing the firepower quickly lets you focus down the teammates and then you can worry about stripped mechs.

Quote

not if the dragon is using its protruding CT and opposite ST to shield its arm like it should be doing

and you shouldnt be playing a dragon if you dont know how to do that

yes killing the arm is obviously better when you can do it easily. but its not always going to be easy or efficient if the dragon is properly shielding its arm.

Sure, you can't always kill the arm efficiently, but if you can it's the better option. It's not the specifics that are important here it the fact that your system also rewards inefficient damage just in a different way than the current system.

If anything the system should probably reward damage that goes towards destroying weapons.

[Khobai]

Quote

Sure, you can't always kill the arm efficiently, but if you can it's the better option. It's not the specifics that are important here it the fact that your system also rewards inefficient damage just in a different way than the current system.

and like I said, if shooting off arms was as easy as you claim, no one would ever use mechs that have all their weapons in one arm.

you claim the specifics dont matter, but they do, because players only put all their weapons in one arm specifically on mechs that have arms that can be easily protected, like the dragon. no one does it on mechs that have arms that are easy to blow off, that would be pointless.

the whole point of the dragon build were talking about is to keep the arm alive at all costs. if you make your arm easy to kill, youve self-defeated the point of the build.

Quote

If anything the system should probably reward damage that goes towards destroying weapons.

it already does reward you for destroying components.

but it should still weight lethal damage as being worth more than non-lethal damage.

shooting off the dragons arm isnt the same thing as killing it outright with a backshot for the same amount of damage. both take about the same amount of damage, but one should be worth a whole lot more.

if you can kill it outright with a backshot, its better, and should be worth more, because then its DEAD. its not shooting nor is it running around still capping points in conquest.

Edited by Khobai, 16 December 2017 - 03:21 PM.

[YueFei]

OmniFail, on 16 December 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

Armor Sharing: You know were living in the age of the 78 point alpha strike and er-large laser spam. The other team is not gonna give a chance to rotate. Two of them are gonna rip you to shreds no matter what weapons they are using.

Look up "slicing the pie" to control your exposure to the enemy team to avoid getting focus-fired.

I mean, I can't do it most of the time because I play a brawling Hunchback-4SP with SRMs almost 100% of the time, so I'm usually too damned close to the enemy to pull that move without dragging myself out of my own weapons range. But if you're going to shoot from mid-range or long-range, that's how you can do it.

There's no need to play like a complete pansy just because there are 78-point alpha strikes flying around. If I manage to take gambles in a brawler and not get vaporized every single time, surely you can manage it too if you're in mid-range or long-range build.

[Brain Cancer]

MischiefSC, on 16 December 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

Hiding LRM boat is not projecting an independent threat or managing a lane. He's just raining on people that his teammates are already attacking. This means 1 enemy is not being suppressed - as such can shoot at leisure, which quickly snowball's damage.

This, incidentally is why your good missile boater is missile poking, not merely hiding and attempting to rain. You don't have to expose much to get Artemis boosts and draw a bit of fire, but a peeking missile boat is like a "SHOOT AT ME" sign for some players. That's good, you get to divert some fire to your armor while giving the reds a barrage. Being able to flick missiles over a hill means you can be a much more difficult but attractive target, and that's one of the secrets to good work with LRMs or ATMs. You can't hide, but you can use cover and properly take some shots and divert attention with the rest.

[MischiefSC]

Brain Cancer, on 16 December 2017 - 08:15 PM, said:

This, incidentally is why your good missile boater is missile poking, not merely hiding and attempting to rain. You don't have to expose much to get Artemis boosts and draw a bit of fire, but a peeking missile boat is like a "SHOOT AT ME" sign for some players. That's good, you get to divert some fire to your armor while giving the reds a barrage. Being able to flick missiles over a hill means you can be a much more difficult but attractive target, and that's one of the secrets to good work with LRMs or ATMs. You can't hide, but you can use cover and properly take some shots and divert attention with the rest.

Which is what you do with direct fire.

The point is that the guy trying to move up your left flank knows a mech is right THERE and can pop out and punish him if he tries to poke from that side or expose in that area.

You want all 12 enemies to have 12 allies that are potentially a direct threat they have to watch out for and either try to shoot or try to avoid getting shot by. LRMs that are leeching don't do any of that - they just mean that someone already fighting someone on your team needs to ensure his cover will deal with LRMs or just accept that he'll take some extra splatter damage every time he pokes.

[Xetelian]

If you're going to reward lethal damage just have it be on top of the current setup. We could always use more cBills and a bonus to lethal damage in cBills would probably make a few people shoot a little smarter and actually press R.

If you think disarming a mech should have a bonus then yes it should, each weapon you destroy should give you bonus cBills but not as high a bonus as lethal damage to prevent serious damage farming.


These things don't have to be mutually exclusive. We can always use more cBills. I'm on a couple discord servers and people are constantly complaining about how they don't have enough cBills to buy new mechs or engines. PGI would move a lot more mechbays if getting mechs was easier, which would sell a lot more MC. The idea of keeping it low so people buy more premium and more heroes isn't always going to be the case. Very few heroes are worth getting and premium time ticks down when you're not playing.

[Ensaine]

I like to make things real basic. If I whack you in the arm with a stick, you'll go 'OW', and most likely be none too happy with me. Ok, you'll get over it.
NOW, you have a tender spot, don't ya. I whack you there, same spot... again. More tender, maybe a small bruise.
I whack ya there again, and now it really hurts. Arm is still functional, but man, that spot !!!

So, after hitting you 3 times, you kill me.
My buddy walks up, whacks you in that same spot. He went right to disabling the arm. No need to hew down the resistance to bruising and pain.

So, when an LRM boat does 500+ damage, even 1k damage, thats a lot of whittling down those resistances. No, not killing damage, but way less armor, then if you met the enemy when he was fresh.

Really... how many times you see an enemy mech, who crossed an open area to get caught up to his buddies, still pretty healthy, but with say an exposed torso. You walk up, put 2 giantlikeguns into that spot.. .blammo, no more arm or torso. And you didn't have to hack through the armor first.

LRM's to me are really not much different than the LL spam we all see. Long range, minimum damage at great ranges, but a laser blast is over in seconds, where a volley of LRM's basically announce themselves on launch, allowing you to duck to safety, or go hug an AMS ally.

I'll be trying the SNV with some ATM's today.

[Brain Cancer]

The problem is LRMa leave more damage off target now. Sure, LRM20s have spread like 15s.. but the go to is Artemis, and THAT combo is nerfed. Bad lurmboats without it were unchanged, but the ones doing it right are now inescapably worse. You damage pad because no other result works

[Wolfways]

What about if I have a teammate who is 800m away brawling an enemy mech and he doesn't have a chance of winning but I can start pounding the target with LRM's as I'm heading towards them and he kills the enemy?
Does he deserve extra pay because he needed my help to survive?

[Ted Wayz]

As much as i love my lurms I try to avoid them on assaults. Because I really want assaults to be assaults.

But without real roles in this game loadout whatever the heck you want.

[ROSS-128]

What's funny is his point about "the last hit is the only lethal hit" directly contradicts his claim that "armor sharing doesn't exist".

Armor sharing exists *precisely* because until your components start hitting 0, your mech is operating at 100% offensive output. Alpha is high in MWO, but DPS is extremely low due to long cooldowns and heat. A typical laser-vomit mech has a sustained DPS of around 5-7. This means if you can force him to chew threw 500 armor before a component finally reaches its last hitpoint, he's going to need about 100 seconds to do it.

It's exactly the same concept as torso-twisting to spread damage, except you're spreading across two mechs. If I can force a laser boat that has a 78pt alpha but only 5 sustained DPS to chew through ~180HP of armor+structure on my shield arms and ~200 ST+CT armor before I start losing weapons, I can stay at 100% offensive output for roughly 76 seconds of sustained fire. If there's two of me doing that, then despite that impressive alpha the enemy could end up taking 152 seconds before a single gun is lost between the two of us. You can get a lot done in 152 seconds.

Of course obviously damage is never spread that perfectly, and focusing fire with multiple mechs exists precisely to counter that tactic, but if you don't even attempt to spread damage in the first place you're just making it easy for them. Making the attempt at least makes them work for it.

[Xetelian]

Ensaine, on 17 December 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:

So, when an LRM boat does 500+ damage, even 1k damage, thats a lot of whittling down those resistances. No, not killing damage, but way less armor, then if you met the enemy when he was fresh.

Really... how many times you see an enemy mech, who crossed an open area to get caught up to his buddies, still pretty healthy, but with say an exposed torso. You walk up, put 2 giantlikeguns into that spot.. .blammo, no more arm or torso. And you didn't have to hack through the armor first.

LRM's to me are really not much different than the LL spam we all see. Long range, minimum damage at great ranges, but a laser blast is over in seconds, where a volley of LRM's basically announce themselves on launch, allowing you to duck to safety, or go hug an AMS ally.

I'll be trying the SNV with some ATM's today.

I don't mind ATMs as much as I am frustrated by LRMs.


Let me make it real basic for you.

This assumes the mech is twisting between LRM hits.


3 assaults, I'll use 85 tons as an average no quirks. 112 armor in the arms (combined) 128 armor in the ST (combined) 100 armor in the CT. This is all with 8 back armor not counted.

112 + 128 + 100 = 340 Now there are 3 of them so 340 * 3 = 1020 armor between 3 assaults with no quirks at 85 tons.

3 Heavies at 65 tons: 80 in the arms + 104 in the ST (combined) + 76 CT armor

80 + 104 + 76 = 260 * 3 = 780 armor between 3 heavies


3 Mediums at 45 tons. 56 in the arms + 72 in the ST (combined) + 48 in the CT

56 + 72 + 48 = 176 * 3 = 528

3 Lights at 25 tons. 32 in the arms + 32 in the ST combined + 24 in the CT = 88 * 3 = 264

3 lights 264 + 3 Mediums 528 + 3 heavies 780 + 3 assaults 1020 = 2592

2592 armor before you get to structure and without quirks and without legs and being the next lowest in armor. A team can easily have 4 - 6 assaults and 0 - 2 lights. Those assaults could also be ANH with armor quirks.

You do 1000 damage you still have 1592 left on the enemy without getting to structure and not counting legs which you will hit. This is with a generous amount of back armor I'm not counting.

There would be 1000 damage worth of structure to go along with it.


How often do you do 1000 damage? 1 in every 250 games? 1 in every 500? Less?



The majority of MWO are potatoes and are not going to average more than 250 damage on a win.



Sand blasting 1000 damage may open one or two components up, may straight up kill one or two guys but you'd be winning +55% of your matches if you could do that every match.

[MrMadguy]

But this is the only thing, this piles of junk are useful for. Isn't it?

Armour, that should make them tanky, doesn't serve it's purpose due to too high firepower of Lights and Mediums, whose strength should be mobility, but not firepower. What's the point in playing big, slow, clunky 'Mech, if any Medium 'Mech still can two-shot it?

Ability to pack largest amount of LRMs - is the only advantage, Assaults have.

[Brother MEX]

DjPush, on 13 December 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

...The optimum range for LRMs is 200-500 meters...

Actually thats the optimum range for ATM

And as ATM also have a longer Maximum range than LRM, I have replaced my LRM in most of my CLAN mechs with ATM