96 replies to this topic

[CaveMan]

Park, et. al., where are you guys getting the idea that you have to pay for contracts? The Q&A said the exact opposite. You bid for how much you GET PAID. The object is to be the lowest bidder, while still making a profit. The minimum reserve is just to keep people from bidding 0 and stealing all the contracts.

Yes it means people with big cash reserves could (in theory) bid low enough to take a loss, but if they keep doing that then attrition will eventually force them out of business. It's a resource management game where you have to decide which is more important: cash or loyalty points, and bid appropriately.

<speculation>There will probably be lots of minor contracts to ensure that even the small fries are able to make rent, if they manage their finances carefully. Chances are the little guys won't be bidding on the same contracts as the big guys. The minor contracts won't pay enough to keep a top-tier unit supplied, and regardless the big boys can't be everywhere at once. You can only play one mission at a time!</speculation>

Edited by CaveMan, 21 December 2011 - 08:35 PM.

[Ghost73]

Prosperity Park, on 21 December 2011 - 08:11 PM, said:

But Lone Wolves can only join in fights that are hosted by Merc Corps, according to the latest Q&A, so... yeah... all Merc Corps that exist at game launch need a direct C-bill infusion so they can start the game.

I thought the Q&A said that empty slots in faction battles would be filled by lone-wolfers
Edit:
Here it is (Q&A2):
[PAUL] Yes. The faction players will have their ranks filled with lone wolves in the event that not enough players can be found for a given match.

Edit 2:
Not really sure why no one posted the specific Q&A on this thread so here it is:
Since a contract system is being used for merc corps. What prevents a merc corp from bidding 1 c-bill for every world they want to fight on if they have sufficient money saved up from previous operations? –Black Sunder

[PAUL] The bidding on a contract involves a minimum bid (i.e. reserve). The bidding is done in a silent auction format where you will not be able to see bids made by other Merc Corps. You will only know that there have been X number of bids placed which all exceed the minimum bid amount. If this reserve is not met, the contract expires.
_______________________________________________________________
It seems to me that the question implies that merc corps bid DOWN ("1 c-bill"), but the answer implies that they bid UP ("exceed the minimum').
Perhaps some further explanation from the devs is in order?

Edited by Ghost73, 21 December 2011 - 10:31 PM.

[CaveMan]

Ghost73, on 21 December 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

It seems to me that the question implies that merc corps bid DOWN ("1 c-bill"), but the answer implies that they bid UP ("exceed the minimum').
Perhaps some further explanation from the devs is in order?

Come on, guys. It's not that complicated. >_<

You can bid whatever you want, and the bids are all secret. Your bid is the amount of money you want from the contract holder, to fulfill the contract. You want to bid as high as you can, without being undersold by someone else.

There is a MINIMUM payout bid, that must be met for the contract to be accepted. This is to prevent people from cheating the system. (And think about it, if someone offered to build you a skyscraper for $5, would you think he was serious? Of course not.)

If a bid doesn't at least meet the minimum, that bid is considered null and void. If NOBODY bids at least the minimum rate, the game assumes there was no interest in the contract, and it goes away.

The game will tell you how many valid bids have been made on the contract (and presumably who has the lowest bid, but not what the bid is).

[Ghost73]

CaveMan, on 21 December 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

Come on, guys. It's not that complicated. >_<

Well, some people (myself included) can't figure out what was meant. It's most likely a mix up between question and answer.

CaveMan, on 21 December 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

There is a MINIMUM payout bid, that must be met for the contract to be accepted. This is to prevent people from cheating the system. (And think about it, if someone offered to build you a skyscraper for $5, would you think he was serious? Of course not.)

If the contractor bids that low, I don't see why the employer should automatically be required to refuse an offer as generous as that. After all, if some one offered to build me a house for $5, I would gladly accept it. That sounds like a win-win situation to me.

CaveMan, on 21 December 2011 - 10:51 PM, said:

If a bid doesn't at least meet the minimum, that bid is considered null and void. If NOBODY bids at least the minimum rate, the game assumes there was no interest in the contract, and it goes away.

Bidding at least the minimum rate usually implies that the bid price goes from BELOW to ABOVE, not the other way around.

I still think the devs need to explain it a little better.

Edited by Ghost73, 21 December 2011 - 11:07 PM.

[CaveMan]

Ghost73, on 21 December 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

If the contractor bids that low, I don't see why the employer should automatically be required to refuse an offer as generous as that. After all, if some one offered to build me a house for $5, I would gladly accept it. That sounds like a win-win situation to me.

This is a game, remember?

The rule is there to prevent abuse of the system, not because that's how it would necessarily be IRL.

Quote

Bidding at least the minimum rate usually implies that the bid price goes from BELOW to ABOVE, not the other way around.

No, it just means bids that are made below the minimum aren't accepted. It's like they never happened. The minimum is just as low as you can go. (And hopefully this will be kept secret and never the same twice, or people will always bid that amount)

[Seth]

My understanding of this:

• A faction offers a defense contract. The most they are willing to pay someone for the job is the reserve. If no one offers to do the job for less than the reserve, then the contract is cancelled.
  
• Merc Companies bid on the contract by telling the faction how much they are willing to do the job for. The Merc company that offers to do the job for the least amount of money wins the contract. A mercenary company doesn't pay the faction offering the contract anything.

[Ghost73]

CaveMan, on 21 December 2011 - 11:07 PM, said:

No, it just means bids that are made below the minimum aren't accepted. It's like they never happened. The minimum is just as low as you can go. (And hopefully this will be kept secret and never the same twice, or people will always bid that amount)

Well, I guess that makes sense. The answer could have been worded a little better though. I assumed the current winning price would be known to all, just like most auctions. It makes more sense if that is not the case and merc corps have nothing to go on except the number of accepted bids.

Although, it still doesn't make sense for an employer to set a minimum amount, I would expect more of a maximum amount so merc corps aren't asking for ridiculous amounts of money.

Edited by Ghost73, 21 December 2011 - 11:17 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Since the reserve is the lowest possible amount acceptable, it really doesn't sound to me like you'll bid to do it for that price, not if people HAVE to at least meet the reserve before a bid will be accepted. But I do see where you are coming from Cave..and it makes sense from the approach you have. What I said, you bid to take the contract, highest big wins, you PAY that amount for the right to take the planet and get paid accordingly if you win due to the benefits the planet gives to the Merc unit that controls it. My idea only works if you get benefits for that and they could exceed what you bid. We'll find out eventually either way

[Karn Evil]

Ghost73, on 21 December 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

If the contractor bids that low, I don't see why the employer should automatically be required to refuse an offer as generous as that. After all, if some one offered to build me a house for $5, I would gladly accept it. That sounds like a win-win situation to me.

If someone built you a house for $5, they're either working for a charity organization or you just got a cardboard box.

[Ghost73]

Karn Evil, on 21 December 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:

If someone built you a house for $5, they're either working for a charity organization or you just got a cardboard box.

You dissin' my $5 house?
Haha, but there are specific requirements that must be met on a contract for full payment, otherwise there are penalties.

Edited by Ghost73, 21 December 2011 - 11:34 PM.

[CaveMan]

Ghost73, on 21 December 2011 - 11:15 PM, said:

Although, it still doesn't make sense for an employer to set a minimum amount, I would expect more of a maximum amount so merc corps aren't asking for ridiculous amounts of money.

Well, they didn't say there wouldn't be a maximum. Just that there would be a minimum. You're right though, the bidding shouldn't be able to start at 1 trillion C-Bills.

That said, I think a maximum is unneeded because if you bid really high it will be really easy for someone else to undersell you. You get nothing if you don't win the contract, after all, so there is a serious disincentive to overbid, unless the servers are just empty that day and no one is bidding against you.

[CaveMan]

This is how I imagine it unfolding. Note none of the bidders know the amount their competitors are bidding:

Quote

12:01 pm {HouseDavion} posts a contract to garrison Kentares IV.
12:01 pm {HouseDavion} is willing to pay 10 million C-Bills upon completion. (A secret reserve of 2 million C-Bills is set).
12:02 pm >>WolfsDragoons<< bids 9.5 million C-Bills to complete the contract.
12:10 pm >>21CentauriLancers<< bids 9.25 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>21CentauriLancers<< is the lowest bidder.
12:13 pm >>WolfsDragoons<< bids 9.4 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>21CentauriLancers<< is the lowest bidder.
12:13 pm >>WolfsDragoons<< bids 9.3 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>21CentauriLancers<< is the lowest bidder.
12:14 pm >>WolfsDragoons<< bids 9 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>WolfsDragoons<< is the lowest bidder.
12:21 pm >>KellHounds<< bids 7 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>KellHounds<< is the lowest bidder.
12:23 pm >>21CentauriLancers<< bids 8 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>KellHounds<< is the lowest bidder.
12:23 pm >>WolfsDragoons<< bids 8 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>KellHounds<< is the lowest bidder.
12:24 pm >>21CentauriLancers<< bids 7 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>KellHounds<< and >>21CentauriLancers<< are tied.
12:24 pm >>WolfsDragoons<< bids 6.5 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>WolfsDragoons<< is the lowest bidder.
12:38 pm >>KellHounds<< bids 5 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>KellHounds<< is the lowest bidder.
12:45 pm >>WolfsDragoons<< bids 6 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>KellHounds<< is the lowest bidder.
12:45 pm >>WolfsDragoons<< bids 4.5 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>WolfsDragoons<< is the lowest bidder.
12:51 pm >>KellHounds<< bids 3 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>KellHounds<< is the lowest bidder.
12:53 pm >>21CentauriLancers<< bids 5 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>KellHounds<< is the lowest bidder.
12:53 pm >>21CentauriLancers<< bids 4 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>KellHounds<< is the lowest bidder.
12:53 pm >>21CentauriLancers<< needs at least 4 million to pay expenses and tries another contract.
12:56 pm >>WolfsDragoons<< bids 3 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>WolfsDragoons<< and >>KellHounds<< are tied.
12:56 pm >>WolfsDragoons<< bids 2 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>WolfsDragoons<< is the lowest bidder.
12:57 pm >>KellHounds<< bids 2 million C-Bills to complete the contract. >>WolfsDragoons<< and >>KellHounds<< are tied.
12:57 pm >>KellHounds<< bids 1 million C-Bills to complete the contract. BID SECRETLY REJECTED, TOO LOW.
1:00 pm Bidding closes. >>WolfsDragoons<< and >>KellHounds<< are tied at 2 million C-Bills.
>>WolfsDragoons<< has more loyalty to {HouseDavion}. >>WolfsDragoons<< wins the tiebreaker.
1:00 pm {HouseDavion} contracts >>WolfsDragoons<< to garrison Kentares IV for 2 million C-Bills.

Edited by CaveMan, 22 December 2011 - 12:05 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Thanks for taking the time to detail the explanation.

[Xhaleon]

Well, if you put it as a measure of how serious the merc company is at accepting the job, then yeah, I guess that works well enough.

So as long as the minimum is pretty low, most people won't even hit it because there will be a point where costs will exceed payout. I don't remember them saying anything about salvage rights though.

[CaveMan]

Oh, a good (in-universe) reason for minimum contract bids:

Loyalty. If Davion contracts defense of a planet for 1 C-Bill, Kurita only has to offer the mercs 2 C-Bills to get them to switch sides (it's a 100% payraise, after all).

So the minimum can represent what the contract-giver thinks is the minimum buy-in cost to deter another power from buying off the mercs.

Speaking of getting paid to switch sides, it would be REALLY COOL to have our loyalties tested like that ingame, devs. *hint hint nudge nudge*

Edited by CaveMan, 22 December 2011 - 02:18 AM.

[EGG]

[PAUL] The bidding on a contract involves a minimum bid (i.e. reserve). The bidding is done in a silent auction format where you will not be able to see bids made by other Merc Corps. You will only know that there have been X number of bids placed which all exceed the minimum bid amount. If this reserve is not met, the contract expires.

He doesn't actually state whether highest or lowest bid above the reserve wins the contract, however most of the language he's using is geared around your bid-upwards type auction.

Specifically stating the reserve needs to be met would be something you'd expect of a highest bid wins system, rather than lowest, where presumably any bids under the 'reserve' are completely irrelevant.

However Dev blog 1 does call the system a "Contract bidding system", for which you would expect lowest wins.

Two other items of note are the fact that they don't mention the reserve as being hidden, only the other bids. Also that Dev blog 1 describes part of the system as:
Loyalty points also determine the type and level of contract a Merc Corp is permitted to bid on.

So presumably the low-tier Mercs will also be going for the low-hanging fruit. Personally I'm indifferent, if a Merc group can't pay/shoot their way then back to the factions with them.

[metro]

Prosperity Park, on 21 December 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:

The Q&A 2 posting describes the bidding system as having a "minimum bid" acting as a reserve, and that Merc corps will have to bid *above* this minimum reserve value in order to get a contract, and all of this is performed in a silent auction-type atmosphere...


Does that mean Merc Corps will be PAYING money to accept contracts? I don't get it! I thought contract-bidding is supposed to be where multiple Corps place bids on how much money they will charge for accomplishing the goals outlined in the contract, and the Corps that "charges" the lowest price will get the contract. Why, then, is there a "minimum bid" that Corps have to exceed in order to get a contact? You'd think that if Merc Corps are vying for a contract, and the cheapest labor gets the contract, then we should see a *maximum* value for the contract that cannot be exceeded because only so much money is being offered for this job!

How is this supposed to work? Are Merc Corps supposed to bid on the rights to "purchase" a mystery contract, and then only the winning Corps will learn how much they will get paid for the job outlined in the contract? Or will the pay-out value of the contract be made public before the bidding is over, so that everyone knows how much the contract is worth before shelling out money to buy the contract?

I don't get it...

Here's a C-bill

[MaddMaxx]

Ghost73, on 21 December 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

I thought the Q&A said that empty slots in faction battles would be filled by lone-wolfers
Edit 2:
Not really sure why no one posted the specific Q&A on this thread so here it is:
Since a contract system is being used for merc corps. What prevents a merc corp from bidding 1 c-bill for every world they want to fight on if they have sufficient money saved up from previous operations? –Black Sunder

[PAUL] The bidding on a contract involves a minimum bid (i.e. reserve). The bidding is done in a silent auction format where you will not be able to see bids made by other Merc Corps. You will only know that there have been X number of bids placed which all exceed the minimum bid amount. If this reserve is not met, the contract expires.
_______________________________________________________________
It seems to me that the question implies that merc corps bid DOWN ("1 c-bill"), but the answer implies that they bid UP ("exceed the minimum').
Perhaps some further explanation from the devs is in order?

Perhaps if ALL posts were read then it we be seen as already being posted. Try #35, then yours and again at #56 LOL!.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 22 December 2011 - 07:12 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Also add to the fact that Mercs and Houses will be bidding on Differing Planet types. Mercs are Border, Houses are internal against the other Houses.

So when we look at the Map, there should be plenty of work to go around. What would be nice to know (a little bit anyways) is how much a basic Planet will generate for a Merc Corp who has controlling interest.

[Felicitatem Parco]

CaveMan, the problem with the way you envision the bidding process unfolding is that there is absolutely no reason for House Davion to reject the Kell Hound's 1million C-bill bid. In fact, House Davion should be thrilled to have such a cheap offer submitted to them.

Edit: When contractors bid for a job, there is a *maximum* bid that cannot be exceeded because only so many dollars are allocated to paying for the job, and the bids go down from there until a lowest bid is reached. The lowest bidder gets the job, and there is no "minimum" limit because it's always in favor of They who are offering the job to accept the lowest bid possible.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 22 December 2011 - 08:53 AM.