147 replies to this topic

[IL MECHWARRIOR]

you are speaking about nothing: THE ASSASSIN DOES NOT REGISTER THE DAMAGE AND MUST GET FIXED

[Maker L106]

MischiefSC, on 20 December 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

I did a bunch of tests with 2 different people.

No videos but you're welcome to replicate it.

Shoot the ST. It's ST up to the shoulder. Have them move toward you and JJ, so you're only at a slight angle and shoot the ST.

Have them feather the JJs and shoot the leg. Remove all but 10 leg armor, use 2 MLs.

******* superhero voice* A REQUEST HAS BEEN MADE!!! TO TESTING WE GO!

[No, really, we'll be back with this inside of a day or so]

[Thorqemada]

Tarogato, on 20 December 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

He was shut down for 22 seconds? Because that's how long it takes to fire three shots with heavy larges.

Firing time is 1 cooldown less than salvos bcs your weapons have been readied b4 the engagement starts so the first cooldown already happened in the pre engagement time - i dont know the CD of heavy larges but i guess it is not 11 seconds...

[Tarogato]

Thorqemada, on 20 December 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

Firing time is 1 cooldown less than salvos bcs your weapons have been readied b4 the engagement starts so the first cooldown already happened in the pre engagement time - i dont know the CD of heavy larges but i guess it is not 11 seconds...

Ah yeah, good point. Up to 22 seconds, but as low as ~16.

(burn duration is 1.55, cooldown is 5.75, one full recycle would be 7.3 - he said he fired three times into a shutdown much. I'm assuming heavy larges, because he said "twin heavy laser", and there's no other heavy laser you would only mount two of other than heavies... unless you don't know how to build a mech.)

Edited by Tarogato, 20 December 2017 - 04:33 PM.

[Alkabides]

I am having a ton of fun playing the assasin and I have to thank op on that one. I wouldn't have picked one up had I not seen this thread. I will say it isn't as broken as the original post might suggest. You play, you pay for sure in this thing but man.... it's about as much fun as you'll get out of a free birthing contraption.

[MischiefSC]

Maker L106, on 20 December 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

******* superhero voice* A REQUEST HAS BEEN MADE!!! TO TESTING WE GO!

[No, really, we'll be back with this inside of a day or so]

About half the ST becomes arm. If you're not exactly dead on, shots you see hitting ST hit the arm.

Leg shots just miss.

Exception is the junk. Junk-punch is always accurate. CT seemed consistent but it's so narrow that was hard to confirm.

[Maker L106]

MischiefSC, on 20 December 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

About half the ST becomes arm. If you're not exactly dead on, shots you see hitting ST hit the arm.

Leg shots just miss.

Exception is the junk. Junk-punch is always accurate. CT seemed consistent but it's so narrow that was hard to confirm.

We can re-test this but in a private lobby testing with boost hopping, feathering the jj's, doing funky things like jj turns, standing in place, running etc: all with a fixed firing location for the shooter we wound up not being able to replicate an actual issue that wasn't just my terrible aiming, several concise and accurate shots to the ST / Arm / Leg all registered where they should have been when watching and re-watching the footage. During the tests the other pilot noticed nothing unusual outside of the typical thing in the video with the backs of the SRM pods causing a front damage tick.

This sounds more and more like some sort of de-sync issue with the animation and the hitboxes (which I know little about) on the serverside. As far as our private matches went, all shots placed into the mechs went exactly where they should have.

I wish I had something conclusive for you but that's what we got from day 1.

[Edit: Afterthought:] I should make this addendum that if you're firing at the Assassin with PPC's of any kind, due to their fat projectile it can go where ever it wants in some cases just because the projectiles hitbox is so large. But as no one's indicated this is the case with them I just felt the need to include it because we ran into that. (not an Assassin issue I guess but think of it what you will.)

Edited by Maker L106, 20 December 2017 - 07:33 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Maker L106, on 20 December 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

We can re-test this but in a private lobby testing with boost hopping, feathering the jj's, doing funky things like jj turns, standing in place, running etc: all with a fixed firing location for the shooter we wound up not being able to replicate an actual issue that wasn't just my terrible aiming, several concise and accurate shots to the ST / Arm / Leg all registered where they should have been when watching and re-watching the footage. During the tests the other pilot noticed nothing unusual outside of the typical thing in the video with the backs of the SRM pods causing a front damage tick.

This sounds more and more like some sort of de-sync issue with the animation and the hitboxes (which I know little about) on the serverside. As far as our private matches went, all shots placed into the mechs went exactly where they should have.

I wish I had something conclusive for you but that's what we got from day 1.

[Edit: Afterthought:] I should make this addendum that if you're firing at the Assassin with PPC's of any kind, due to their fat projectile it can go where ever it wants in some cases just because the projectiles hitbox is so large. But as no one's indicated this is the case with them I just felt the need to include it because we ran into that. (not an Assassin issue I guess but think of it what you will.)

We reduced armor to 10 pts on each location and tested with 2 MLs.

The person I tested with has a ping of about 200 and I had about 80.

However tests were really simple; come at you, angle off by a few degrees and JJ. Shoot, track the shot on the ST. Even he could see the shot in the bottom left of the cockpit hitting the ST not over on the arm.

Repeated with legs - at one point you could see the lasers clipping *through* the upper thigh on the mech.

Ping related? I'll friend you tomorrow and let's test it again.

[Temporary Axis]

I'd be interested to see the ping test. EMP commented that the low ping in worlds made lasers even more effect with instant reg especially on the commando.

If you keep dying easily in an assassin you are really doing something wrong. It has great hitboxes, tanky armour, hitreg issues and a lights maneuverability. In comp, we focus them down hard for these exact reasons.

[Novakaine]

LOLz the clan whine is real.

[Alkabides]

Assasin IIc.... chicken legs and stealth armor that doesn't prevent you from not cooling down.

[Dimento Graven]

FupDup, on 17 December 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

... Over the years pretty much every single skinny fast humanoid mech has been accused of having broken hitboxes. Spider, Commando, Firestarter, Panther, Wolfhound, Cheetah, Javelin, Mist Lynx (yes I'm serious I've seen people call the MLX's hitboxes broken), Stormcrow, now the Assassin...notice the pattern at all?

Actually, quite a few of those have actually HAD hit box 'fixes' in past patches.

So... yeah, it's not UNreasonable to question the validity of boxes in new 'mechs.

For F's sake, 'mechs we've had for years still, STILL, have hit box 'gaps' where shots fired "pass through" doing zero damage (*cough*Cataphract*cough*)...

Mostly though what I see as the problem with 'mechs like the ASN is the damned jumping/HSR/hit reg issues. If a 'mech is jumping and using non-laser weapons, you have to fire at it completely differently in order to have a chance at having your shots register it. It's not exactly 'intuitive', in fact it feels counter intuitive, and my MWO habits have malfed up my game play in other games.

Quote

Even with my extreme unending cynicism of PGI's development, not even I believe that PGI could screw up hitboxes on so many mechs over such a long time period.

Really? Never underestimate A: The difficulty of doing it right, B: The tendency of management choosing "good enough" over "correctly", C: The incompetence of others.

[HGAK47]

Havent noticed but what do I know im just a QP scrub. Advanced concepts like hit registration have little meaning when I cant even remember to override the heat! (and then not cook myself in the process )

[Y E O N N E]

Temporary Axis, on 21 December 2017 - 12:19 AM, said:

I'd be interested to see the ping test. EMP commented that the low ping in worlds made lasers even more effect with instant reg especially on the commando.

If you keep dying easily in an assassin you are really doing something wrong. It has great hitboxes, tanky armour, hitreg issues and a lights maneuverability. In comp, we focus them down hard for these exact reasons.

Might explain why I don't seem to have problems getting damage to register on fast targets. My ping is typically between 19 and 32 on NA games which is absurdly low. EU games it's between 90 and 100 which is, again, pretty low for the distance.

[blood4blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2017 - 01:19 PM, said:

Might explain why I don't seem to have problems getting damage to register on fast targets. My ping is typically between 19 and 32 on NA games which is absurdly low. EU games it's between 90 and 100 which is, again, pretty low for the distance.

Ping usually affects whether or not you need to lag-shoot, i.e. give extra leading or trailing because what you see on-screen and what the server registers for damage can be delayed by the relative ping of the players (yours + your target's). Lag spikes and ping fluctuation cause similar problems and rubber-banding/teleporting issues if it gets bad enough. Other connection issues are more likely to affect hitreg directly, like packet loss where something just drops information between you and the server (or vice-versa). Those issues apply to all games, and are affected by the game's netcode as well as the players' connection qualities. Anyone who played MW4 competitively can probably recall at least a couple Aussie players with 56k dial-up that almost never took any damage due to a combination of ping and packet loss...

More specific to MWO, IIRC, the game engine has problems after mechs get up to a certain speed (I think it was around 175kph, but I forget the exact number), which is why they limited the top speed of Locusts and MASC. Might have had something to do with convergence issues too, it's been a long time since I read those threads. Anyway, combine a player with a poor connection piloting a fast light with wonky hitboxes, and you get the various light mech tanks MWO has had over the years (Ravens had it a long time back, Firestarters did, now seems to be Assassins, and still seems to get worse with anything over 150kph or so).

[Grus]

Another thing to add into the mix is the mech's "bounce" as they walk. I don't have an issue hitting a lot of clan targets where I want to hit them.. IS lights though then to bounce, a lot, so this add to the spreading of damage for them. Clan lights tend to almost float as the run, best example is the jenner 2c.

[Maker L106]

MischiefSC, on 20 December 2017 - 11:02 PM, said:

We reduced armor to 10 pts on each location and tested with 2 MLs.

The person I tested with has a ping of about 200 and I had about 80.

However tests were really simple; come at you, angle off by a few degrees and JJ. Shoot, track the shot on the ST. Even he could see the shot in the bottom left of the cockpit hitting the ST not over on the arm.

Repeated with legs - at one point you could see the lasers clipping *through* the upper thigh on the mech.

Ping related? I'll friend you tomorrow and let's test it again.

Honestly this is my best guess as Trav and I have a pretty solid connection nearly 50-80 ping to each other. so its pretty solid. It might be something janky in the connection. I've seen lasers do strange things from the spectator seat as well where people ghost laser ahead of the mech on my screen but likely on theirs and the server the shots are perfect. I'd love for a chance to talk to a PGI adjuster / programmer / whatever 1 on 1 with this stuff just to see what we can come up with.

I find it especially weird that I can't get the problems to register... I wonder if its a specific assassin model, I don't have all of them just the 21 and 27... and trav only has the 27. I'd wonder if thats why were getting unusual test results.

Dimento Graven, on 21 December 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

Actually, quite a few of those have actually HAD hit box 'fixes' in past patches.

So... yeah, it's not UNreasonable to question the validity of boxes in new 'mechs.

For F's sake, 'mechs we've had for years still, STILL, have hit box 'gaps' where shots fired "pass through" doing zero damage (*cough*Cataphract*cough*)...

Mostly though what I see as the problem with 'mechs like the ASN is the damned jumping/HSR/hit reg issues. If a 'mech is jumping and using non-laser weapons, you have to fire at it completely differently in order to have a chance at having your shots register it. It's not exactly 'intuitive', in fact it feels counter intuitive, and my MWO habits have malfed up my game play in other games.

Really? Never underestimate A: The difficulty of doing it right, B: The tendency of management choosing "good enough" over "correctly", C: The incompetence of others.

I'd love to hear more about this Cataphract so That I can see that first hand as well.

On PGI, they may be sketchy, but at least they're here occasionally and manage to not **** things up as much as other game companies by comparison. Granted the bar this year's been set pretty low IMO but PGI hasn't wronged us nearly as badly as I've been shat on in the past by other companies who not only railroaded me when I asked for support or help they strait up ignored my request or deleted my posts. Maybe I'm too easy to please but for what its worth PGI's not terrible by any stretch. Seen worse, been around worse, no. They might not be perfect or a super top % but they're good enough. Just provide feedback and do what you can.

Just wish they'd buff not nerf things. [/rant; sorry]

Edited by Maker L106, 21 December 2017 - 06:07 PM.

[LowSubmarino]

Assassin is one of the most durables mech in the game. Dunno why. Dunno if its a bug or if they were meant to be that hard to bring down. I use a lot of pin point builds. Pulse lasers. Medium and small pulse lasers. But those things can absorb it easier than any other mech. If I land 2 full alphas on any medium or light ct, then they are already in bad shape.

Not this mech. Theyre yellow at best. They can basically take twice as much dmg or three times as much. Didnt see it a few dozens times but many months. Those things just swallow dmg.

[Nightbird]

Vids or it didn't happen

[Cnaiur]

The mech is relatively small; it’s skinny and doesn’t present much of a target. It’s also typically moving very fast. Because it’s small and skinny, it has small hit boxes. It’s also extremely agile, with good turn/twist ratings. It also has decent arm shields and can jump.

All of the above adds up to a mech that’s extremely difficult to focus damage on unless you’re using PPFLD. There’s no magic, it’s just ridiculously good at spreading damage, assuming whoever’s shooting at it can even hit a fast moving target, and let’s be honest here; lots of players can’t.