242 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

lol @ the guy trying to convince people the direwolf is better than the annihilator

[K O Z A K]

Other than extreme range where the balance seems dead even at this point most drops in IS come down to: if you have enough ppl that wont be scared to ball push the clanners you get clans "whaaa IS op, srms op, dakka op, IS mechs never overheat, whaa", if your team is a bunch of pu...es and wont get in clanners overheating face you get spheroids "whaaa clam op, alpha strikes op, trading op, whaaa"

[MischiefSC]

If someone has more than 1 fire group you can shoot less than a full alpha.

People being bad at the game isn't a balance issues.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Jay Leon Hart, on 23 December 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

Why?

Well the reason why the clan mech should have some minor advantage over the IS mech mech vs mech is because the IS has a greater tonnage amount in FP by 25 tons, thus each Clan mech should be equal to a IS mech 5-10 tons heavier than it for the sake of balance.

Of course they could just remove the IS tonnage advantage and go for balancing the mech vs mech to be equal.

Personally though, I'm not really of the opinion that Clans are OP, rather Clans are just good in the specific but yet meta form of gameplay in trading, yet they get blasted in other forms of fighting. Victor vs Orion IIC for example for brawlers, Bushwacker vs any clan 50 tonner in scouting, Annihilator vs Dire Wolf for ballistic boating. Clans really excel at high alpha laser boats and poptarts, that's about it.

[K O Z A K]

MischiefSC, on 23 December 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

People being bad at the game isn't a balance issues.

Hasnt this been one of the major balancing factors PGI used since the start? Lol

[Y E O N N E]

Hazeclaw, on 23 December 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

Hasnt this been one of the major balancing factors PGI used since the start? Lol

Unfortunately, yes.

[Lykaon]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Well the reason why the clan mech should have some minor advantage over the IS mech mech vs mech is because the IS has a greater tonnage amount in FP by 25 tons, thus each Clan mech should be equal to a IS mech 5-10 tons heavier than it for the sake of balance.

And they don't?

Let's look at Hellbringer vs Blackknight laser vomit builds.

I have a Hellbringer with 2 hvy large lasers and 5 ER meds ECM and 23 DHS it has about half a ton of shaved armor from max protection.

That's a 40% heat efficency with a 71 point alpha strike with ECM for enhanced stealth an unenhanced speed of 81.0 kph and an clan XL for durability.

Let's build an I.S. mech for this role. Let's go with a Black Knight-7 (for the three should hardpoints for the Lrg Lasers)

So 3 Large lasers and 6 ER -meds, 20 DHS and a 360XL (still slower than the Hellbringer and it has the suicide box I.S. engine) shaved about half a ton of armor off to fit a DHS and used light ferro.

That's 32% heat efficency with a 57 point alpha strike no ECM and a speed of 77.8 with the "killbox" XL engine.

Effective quirks are 5% energy heat 17 CT armor 12 R/LT armor 12 R/LA and 9 R/LL

So the 5% heat bonus still puts the I.S. mech under the clan mech's performace because of the capacity to fit more DHS in total. So that leaves the armor quirks as the HUGE uphill battle to over come for the poor clanner.

Remember that higher top speed ECM better cooling and higher alpha on the Hellbringer?

Pretty much the only advantage held by the I.S. mech in this compareson is armor. The Black Knight is more armored but slower/no ECM/Hotter/ Inner Sphere XL vulnerability. And this is with a 10 ton weight advantage.


...oh forgot the Hellbringer F LT has-10% energy heat...so um yeah that's a thing.

Edited by Lykaon, 23 December 2017 - 03:14 PM.

[Scout Derek]

>Thread

[Grus]

Lykaon, on 23 December 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

And they don't?

Let's look at Hellbringer vs Blackknight laser vomit builds.

I have a Hellbringer with 2 hvy large lasers and 5 ER meds ECM and 23 DHS it has about half a ton of shaved armor from max protection.

That's a 40% heat efficency with a 71 point alpha strike with ECM for enhanced stealth an unenhanced speed of 81.0 kph and an clan XL for durability.

Let's build an I.S. mech for this role. Let's go with a Black Knight-7 (for the three should hardpoints for the Lrg Lasers)

So 3 Large lasers and 6 ER -meds, 20 DHS and a 360XL (still slower than the Hellbringer and it has the suicide box I.S. engine) shaved about half a ton of armor off to fit a DHS and used light ferro.

That's 32% heat efficency with a 57 point alpha strike no ECM and a speed of 77.8 with the "killbox" XL engine.

Effective quirks are 5% energy heat 17 CT armor 12 R/LT armor 12 R/LA and 9 R/LL

So the 5% heat bonus still puts the I.S. mech under the clan mech's performace because of the capacity to fit more DHS in total. So that leaves the armor quirks as the HUGE uphill battle to over come for the poor clanner.

Remember that higher top speed ECM better cooling and higher alpha on the Hellbringer?

Pretty much the only advantage held by the I.S. mech in this compareson is armor. The Black Knight is more armored but slower/no ECM/Hotter/ Inner Sphere XL vulnerability. And this is with a 10 ton weight advantage.


...oh forgot the Hellbringer F LT has-10% energy heat...so um yeah that's a thing.

This is where knowing where to shoot comes into play

So the hbr St...and you're at a 56 alpha? First shot of a full butt to that st will bring it to red. 2nd shot from the knight of color will crit it and most likely knock out 80%of the items in that location.. if you both shoot at the same time and the hbr is aiming for your CT he will finish his burn after You, giving you the chance to twist some damage off and you will be able to fire again before he will just due to cooldowns... so now that the hbr is wrecked and you MIGHT have all your CT armor gone but till combat effective... where was that clan superiority again?

[Y E O N N E]

So...only one side needs to exercise targeting knowledge? Lul.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 23 December 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

This is where knowing where to shoot comes into play

So the hbr St...and you're at a 56 alpha? First shot of a full butt to that st will bring it to red. 2nd shot from the knight of color will crit it and most likely knock out 80%of the items in that location.. if you both shoot at the same time and the hbr is aiming for your CT he will finish his burn after You, giving you the chance to twist some damage off and you will be able to fire again before he will just due to cooldowns... so now that the hbr is wrecked and you MIGHT have all your CT armor gone but till combat effective... where was that clan superiority again?

More likely, that HBR will aim at the ST of the BLK-KNT and, since humans have a reaction time, maybe spread 0.15s of that burn, so let's say 10% less damage for the HBR, putting it at 63 damage vs the BLK-KNTs 57.

[Edit]
BLK-KNT Armour/Structure/Quirk
RT/LT = 64 + 32 + 12 = 108
CT = 92 + 46 + 17 = 155

HBR Armour/Structure/Quirk
RT/LT = 60 + 30 + 0 = 90
CT = 84 + 42 + 0 = 126

Minimum damage to kill BLK-KNT = 108, so at 63 damage per shot, that's a potentially dead BLK-KNT in 8.85s.

Minimum damage to kill HBR = 126, so at 57 damage per shot, that's 9.5s to kill the HBR.
[/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 23 December 2017 - 04:00 PM.

[dario03]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Well the reason why the clan mech should have some minor advantage over the IS mech mech vs mech is because the IS has a greater tonnage amount in FP by 25 tons, thus each Clan mech should be equal to a IS mech 5-10 tons heavier than it for the sake of balance.

Of course they could just remove the IS tonnage advantage and go for balancing the mech vs mech to be equal.

Personally though, I'm not really of the opinion that Clans are OP, rather Clans are just good in the specific but yet meta form of gameplay in trading, yet they get blasted in other forms of fighting. Victor vs Orion IIC for example for brawlers, Bushwacker vs any clan 50 tonner in scouting, Annihilator vs Dire Wolf for ballistic boating. Clans really excel at high alpha laser boats and poptarts, that's about it.

Could also just balance the weight classes some more since all the other modes are 1 mech per player. Not have weight matter so much. Besides the game needs a balance pass even within the weights.

[Lykaon]

Grus, on 22 December 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

Someone got triggered

In mech vs mech of the same class clan should have an edge... problem is in FP we are hardly ever on a even plane. IS get more tonnage so for the most part we are fighting mech's 10/15 tonne heavier per wave.

An example is a matchup all to often I see, marader2c vs annihilator. 76pnt alpha vs 40pnt. By the numbers the 76 looks to have the advantage. Shot for shot you're right. But the 40pnts of A.C. damage the anni can spit out can keep coming. The 76 Las vomit you WILL have to pop a CS to not shutdown to fire again. And in that time before you can fire again the anni has done over 80 PPFLD where the Las can be spread over the mech. (Toe to toe no cover engagements)

This is just a basic example of the hill clan mech's have to climb.

There isn't an advantage already?

Marauder IIc is significantly more nimble much faster and dishes out more damage per poke than the Annihilator. Since the Marauder has the edge in speed and agility how are you not out right dictating where and when the pokes happen? or why not just circumvent the plodding Annihilator ?

My current Marauder 2c build is 6 ER-Mediums and 2 Heavy Large Lasers. A light active probe and 26 DHS on a 400 XL

78 Alpha nearly 80kph speed 40%+ heat efficency and Annihilators do not bother me one bit. Hit em...run away hit em again (arm pops off) repeat (no arms) do it again (no side torso) stick and move and dead Annihilator that maybe put 80 damage into me. Seriously nearly 80 Kph speed VS less than 50 Kph speed...I get to decide if I want to fight and where as well as when. The Annihilator gets to spend the whole time reacting to my terms.

And in general the Clans always have this advantage. If your clan mech is not noticably faster then your I.S. target is running a huge XL engine and has lowered damage output and has a bomb in their side torsos.

Stop chasing the Inner Sphere advantages of armor and combat longevity and embrace the clan strengths the I.S. can't even attain. Massive Alpha potential and speed. Be a Ghost hit and fade and rotate your mechs don't slug it out that's their game not yours never let the enemy play their game when you can force them to play yours.

[Lykaon]

Jay Leon Hart, on 23 December 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

More likely, that HBR will aim at the ST of the BLK-KNT and, since humans have a reaction time, maybe spread 0.15s of that burn, so let's say 10% less damage for the HBR, putting it at 63 damage vs the BLK-KNTs 57.

[Edit]
BLK-KNT Armour/Structure/Quirk
RT/LT = 64 + 32 + 12 = 108
CT = 92 + 46 + 17 = 155

HBR Armour/Structure/Quirk
RT/LT = 60 + 30 + 0 = 90
CT = 84 + 42 + 0 = 126

Minimum damage to kill BLK-KNT = 108, so at 63 damage per shot, that's a potentially dead BLK-KNT in 8.85s.

Minimum damage to kill HBR = 126, so at 57 damage per shot, that's 9.5s to kill the HBR.
[/Edit]

And if you're smart and leverage the stealth granted by the ECM your first alpha is free from reprisal since they didn't see it coming at all ( I can manage this about half the time in most combats). Pick a target that has it's attention elsewhere and pop em and fade. If you have the advantage of a coordinated team you can create the distraction (squirrel/arty strike/ etc) and significantly improve the chances of getting free damage without reprisals.

But the bottom line is the amount of damage it actually takes to drop an I.S. mech with an XL versus all the quirked armor they get. The clan mech get's all of it's side torso armor the I.S. gets effectively half their side torso (combined) armor.

That is why early "free" damage is important in faction warfare. It's ultimatley a war of attrition so any lead is a good lead.

On a side note...I am looking forward to having my 20 ton leg amputator Pirannah -2 with 12 ER-Sml Lasers (60 point laser Alpha on a 20 ton mech)

Edited by Lykaon, 23 December 2017 - 05:30 PM.

[MischiefSC]

There's just no way for the piranha not to be broke AF.

At this point I feel like PGI doesn't really care about balance, they're just maximizing revenue while MW5 is finished.

[Grus]

Jay Leon Hart, on 23 December 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

More likely, that HBR will aim at the ST of the BLK-KNT and, since humans have a reaction time, maybe spread 0.15s of that burn, so let's say 10% less damage for the HBR, putting it at 63 damage vs the BLK-KNTs 57.

[Edit]
BLK-KNT Armour/Structure/Quirk
RT/LT = 64 + 32 + 12 = 108
CT = 92 + 46 + 17 = 155

HBR Armour/Structure/Quirk
RT/LT = 60 + 30 + 0 = 90
CT = 84 + 42 + 0 = 126

Minimum damage to kill BLK-KNT = 108, so at 63 damage per shot, that's a potentially dead BLK-KNT in 8.85s.

Minimum damage to kill HBR = 126, so at 57 damage per shot, that's 9.5s to kill the HBR.
[/Edit]

can't tell you the last time I seems a black night with a XL. And again, you're not thinking of when a hot loses that st with 60% of its firepower with it... 3 in the st and 1 in the arm now that alpha is more like high 30's.. and a black night can burn it off in 2 shots.

But hey, recent event stats show how OP clan mech's are right? I mean .8 w/l for clan in both scouting and invaision...

[LT. HARDCASE]

So a Clan mech should be:

1. Objectively superior 1v1 vs an IS of equal tonnage.
2. Equal in strength to an IS mech of as much as 10 tons heavier.

Why even approach a balance discussion, with a person who believes this?

[MischiefSC]

Grus, on 23 December 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

can't tell you the last time I seems a black night with a XL. And again, you're not thinking of when a hot loses that st with 60% of its firepower with it... 3 in the st and 1 in the arm now that alpha is more like high 30's.. and a black night can burn it off in 2 shots.

But hey, recent event stats show how OP clan mech's are right? I mean .8 w/l for clan in both scouting and invaision...

I'm just curious if you're being intentionally dishonest, if you've never seen the FW map or if you're just really, really new.

We're you there for the Tharkad? KCom played like 20 drops, MS and BCMC were in IS and there were almost no active units in Clans. Even with Clans being literally just pugs and casual units it still won about 46% of its matches. IS hasn't won 46% of its matches in any event - or even in any week in about a year.

Go look at the war log. Please count the IS wins. The Tharkad event is literally the only time IS has won anything in FW, and thats only because population was so low that 2 merx units could swing it when almost nobody else played.

[Deathlike]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Well the reason why the clan mech should have some minor advantage over the IS mech mech vs mech is because the IS has a greater tonnage amount in FP by 25 tons, thus each Clan mech should be equal to a IS mech 5-10 tons heavier than it for the sake of balance.

Of course they could just remove the IS tonnage advantage and go for balancing the mech vs mech to be equal.

Personally though, I'm not really of the opinion that Clans are OP, rather Clans are just good in the specific but yet meta form of gameplay in trading, yet they get blasted in other forms of fighting. Victor vs Orion IIC for example for brawlers, Bushwacker vs any clan 50 tonner in scouting, Annihilator vs Dire Wolf for ballistic boating. Clans really excel at high alpha laser boats and poptarts, that's about it.

All we have to ignore (according to Clam apologists) about Clan tech are the following:
Clan XL (IS XL is insta-side core death and LFE comes at a greater tonnage deficit while inheriting the same penalties as Clan XL)
Clan FF (usually able to be picked up on most non-Clan Omnimechs, rarely selected by IS due to crit considerations)
Clan Endo (IS always pays double in slots)
Clan DHS (IS DHS takes more slots and by nature of crits can't fit as many as a Clan mech can - you know, math)
Clan Weapons (can fit an CERLL on the head or CERPPC on the CT whenever possible - IS gets weaker options - totally not limited to energy weapons)

You know... everything.

I mean, all we need is a complicit man to balance the game in favor of potatoes (willfully ignorant or intentional - either result is plausible) and what do we have? Virtually every comp player running a Clan mech under 95+% of the instances.

But no, let's just pretend it's all equal, because Clans always win, or something infallible logic.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

All we have to ignore (according to Clam apologists) about Clan tech are the following:
Clan XL (IS XL is insta-side core death and LFE comes at a greater tonnage deficit while inheriting the same penalties as Clan XL)
Clan FF (usually able to be picked up on most non-Clan Omnimechs, rarely selected by IS due to crit considerations)
Clan Endo (IS always pays double in slots)
Clan DHS (IS DHS takes more slots and by nature of crits can't fit as many as a Clan mech can - you know, math)
Clan Weapons (can fit an CERLL on the head or CERPPC on the CT whenever possible - IS gets weaker options - totally not limited to energy weapons)

You know... everything.

I mean, all we need is a complicit man to balance the game in favor of potatoes (willfully ignorant or intentional - either result is plausible) and what do we have? Virtually every comp player running a Clan mech under 95+% of the instances.

But no, let's just pretend it's all equal, because Clans always win, or something infallible logic.

Listen, all those scrubs who make up the top, like, 1k players in the game just don't understand how the game works.

IS LRMs OP. If you all were any good you'd be spamming the LRM dragons with all the structure buffs and LRM Ravens or whatever totally ******* ******** stuff the people who think IS is OP want to run.

The cold, hard reality is that the people saying IS is OP are so terrible that they can't win with the odds stacked in their favor. That's... unfortunate.