160 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 01 January 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

I sure hope this is never a thing, ever like ever ever. In any sport ever, teaching people to give up and quit just because someone is better than them is the saddest most self defeating concept I can possibly think of.

there are sports where winning 3out of 5 ends when someone won 3. so early endings exist in sport. there is no purpose for helpless lost seals to get clubbed further by much higher skilled pilots, it's often just a waste of time for both.

so when it's like 40:8 there is no realistical way for the ones in those left 8 mechs to still win this game. from a battle point fo view that actually is the time to retreat. MWO and FP is supposed to be simulated war, and retreating is part of war.

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 January 2018 - 08:31 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Kiran Yagami, on 01 January 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

When you see the enemy team roll in all piloting the exact same mech, usually Linebackers, KDK-3s, or Timber Wolves, you know a seal clubbin' is a comin'. That's 12 people all in the same off-game voice chat who've played together before. Just die quickly and get on with your life.

Yes, roll over and die.. Just give up...

Not like you can combat a Group by, you know, forming one yourself. AND they use comms? The horror!

Were these Clanners mutants or something? Unique genetic manipulation that granted them the special powers of speech and hearing over you? Is there a in-game or setting the you can hit to enable speech and hearing to allow you, or anyone, to be able to talk to others on team and hear what they are saying?

[TWIAFU]

Brain Cancer, on 01 January 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

When an event takes QP+FP to complete, it's not like the PUG can avoid FP.

The stocking stuffer one seems like a perfect example. To finish it, one has to go into FP, even if you normally wouldn't.

I took one look and said "Whelp, no free robot for me", because I really, really don't want to inflate the player numbers on a game mode I think is an utter failure.

But the pug is sure fast to click "OK" on the warning before entering CW thinking the HAVE TO get all rewards all the time.

Even faster to come complain about the choice they made.

[TWIAFU]

Vellron2005, on 02 January 2018 - 01:11 AM, said:

How does seal clubbing in FP happen?

Well.. there are certain steps to this..

1) The Matchmaker does a piss poor job of grouping a large organized (often competitive) group, Vs. random, unorganized pugs.

2) The pugs do what they do.. if they are attacking, they waste half their mechs trying to open the door by shooting at it instead of the gens, or by trading and sniping through the door instead of pushing in. If defending, they scatter, don't focus fire, and generally play for points instead of playing for the win. If in a non-siedge mode, they also scatter, don't focus fire, and play for individual points instead of the win.

3) The premade comp group push, focus fire, and employ tactics designed to maximize their use of the map and identical, per-fabricated builds such as SRM Linebackers, SRM Assassins, or combinations of Gauss/Laservomit, depending on their group style.

4) They annihilate the pug's first wave, then push out and spawn camp them.

5) The premade then stomp the pugs into the ground..

and there you go.. seal clubbing at it's finest.

Teamwork vs no teamwork.

Perfect example.

Guess it would be good for all solo pilots to have that warning popup EVERY time they drop in CW until they group.

[Lily from animove]

riverslq, on 01 January 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

ahh..it wasn't 'git gud' this time, it was join a team.
uh huh..
if fp wasnt for pugs, pgi should stop having events associated with it.

PGI makes alls sorts of events, There is no need to participate an event.

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 January 2018 - 05:10 AM.

[Mystere]

Brain Cancer, on 01 January 2018 - 09:54 PM, said:

You're outmatched and owned 12-0 in the first wave? Go ahead and pack up the dropships and leave.

Any CW mode should turn into "Evacuation" when the losing players decide to retreat or a certain threshold is met. That would require creativity on PGI's part but sounds potentially "fun" for players on both sides.

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 01 January 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

I sure hope this is never a thing, ever like ever ever. In any sport ever, teaching people to give up and quit just because someone is better than them ...

See above.

Edited by Mystere, 02 January 2018 - 05:51 AM.

[Mystere]

The Basilisk, on 02 January 2018 - 02:20 AM, said:

Instead of beeing at least fair and walking in when their mechs got damaged beyond a certain point, every mech that got damaged retreated and ejected.

Deliberate usage of onesided walls, invisible wall spotting and every other abusable gamefeature or better softspot of the game used ....and all in a single match.

It is about knowingly exploiting irreconcilable advantages over others that makes you the dirty hole in the A.

Wow! Just wow! Map knowledge and tactics are exploits, just like teamwork.

I have nothing more to say. <smh>

Edited by Mystere, 02 January 2018 - 05:48 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mystere, on 02 January 2018 - 05:47 AM, said:

Wow! Just wow! Map knowledge and tactics are exploits, just like teamwork.

I have nothing more to say. <smh>

Remember, not walking into the pugs when you are damaged and allowing yourself to die is abuse.

And they say groups are the ones who *want* to shoot fish in a barrel.

[MischiefSC]

Lily from animove, on 02 January 2018 - 04:12 AM, said:

there are sports where winning 3out of 5 ends when someone won 3. so early endings exist in sport. there is no purpose for helpless lost seals to get clubbed further by much higher skilled pilots, it's often just a waste of time for both.

so when it's like 40:8 there is no realistical way for the ones in those left 8 mechs to still win this game. from a battle point fo view that actually is the time to retreat. MWO and FP is supposed to be simulated war, and retreating is part of war.

If you're going to do that then the winning team gets rewarded for the max value of all remaining enemy mechs. Like they all got farmed to 100%, split evenly among the winning team.

If you're going to treat one side like a commodity and not people who are accountable for themselves then I want paid out in my pound of flesh.

My preference would be for adults to take accountability for themselves and do their best, beginning to end. However in reality I recognize that's way, way too high of a bar to set for some people. In that instance, people who play the game from the positions of being a baby seal out to get farmed and just hoping sometimes they'll get lucky and someone good will carry them and then just run away when a challenge shows up, then sure. Treat them like NPCs. Let them run away and auto-resolve rewards.

It's an amazing sort of pitiful to think about but not everyone has the same attitude about pride and self respect.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Lily from animove, on 02 January 2018 - 04:12 AM, said:

there are sports where winning 3out of 5 ends when someone won 3. so early endings exist in sport. there is no purpose for helpless lost seals to get clubbed further by much higher skilled pilots, it's often just a waste of time for both.

so when it's like 40:8 there is no realistical way for the ones in those left 8 mechs to still win this game. from a battle point fo view that actually is the time to retreat. MWO and FP is supposed to be simulated war, and retreating is part of war.

So... instead of having respawns, there should be a set of 5 and best three of 5 wins? Not sure how losing 12-2 three times in a row is any different than losing 48-8 once.

MWO isn't simulated war, it is a game.

But the point isn't the final score. There is always a lesson to be learned from failure. Good sportsmanship for one. So, instead of coddling those who fail and making it easier, why shouldn't we be asking them to self assess? Why did you fail? What is the one thing you can do different this time that you didn't do last time? The answer seems blatantly obvious to me and has been spouted on these forums for years now. The simplest thing to learn, try something different. If you're getting seal clubbed what can you as an individual do different? I know I know, so cliché.... group up, get on comms, work on your teamwork, ask for help, ask for build advice, find people willing to help you.

Every TS I know of for MWO has been friendly and welcoming. There are people out there willing to help. There are units who exist to help new players acclimate to the game.

Maybe, just maybe if players made an effort to try and use the tools available to them, they wouldn't get dropship farmed, they might still lose 48-15 or w/e but maybe, just maybe they might make some progress, and die on the field of battle instead of falling from their dropships. Maybe next time they'll make it 48-20. If you quit every time you face a better opponent, you'll never get better yourself. If you don't care, if you don't want to get better, that is fine. Have fun your way. It is your right to enjoy what MWO offers in any way you please, but don't expect the world to change for you just because you ignored the warning label and are now not having fun.

[justcallme A S H]

Dakota1000, on 02 January 2018 - 03:07 AM, said:

Boy do I love EVIL. They became the monsters that the pugs kept trying to make groups out to be, the real boogeyman to run them off. I just have a love for when one group of people says another group of people is bad when they really aren't so bad and a portion of that group decides to show them what bad really is. Like a slap in the face that says enough is enough.

As for Asym's post, yeah, its totally the people who work together and socialize with eachother that are antisocial, totally not the guys who refuse to talk to eachother, work together, or think about anyone but themselves.

"abuseable game features"

[LordNothing]

it usually always starts with a team that just doesnt want to fight. they either hide in the drop zone or they refuse to push on attack. pretty much its their own fault every single time. the people who know better dont take command, or the people who dont decide not too listen or spew bs like "wait for them to come". or the team members throw eachother under the bus trying to salvage a decent score out of the whole damn boondoggle.

sometimes teams give up after a bad push, and the first push is almost always bad. people take too much time to set up and dont even know how a conga line works, they wait for the most impatient player to burn his first mech opening the door and then dont push out. even if there was a plan its declared a failure at this point and abandoned for everyone flopping around like seals waiting to die. if you are going to get farmed at least make them earn it ffs.

i never blame the 12 man, ever. when im faced against a bunch of seals i never feel pity i just farm them like the 12 man does. everybody farms when the other team is stacked with taters. they do some things that are questionable, like stack one side when an event draws in the pugtaters. optimizing the farm no doubt. but of course too much farming is bad for the soil. and thats why as soon as this event is over its going to be dead in the only mode in the entire game with any depth.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 January 2018 - 09:40 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 01 January 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

I sure hope this is never a thing, ever like ever ever. In any sport ever, teaching people to give up and quit just because someone is better than them is the saddest most self defeating concept I can possibly think of. Some of my fondest memories in this game in FP are of coming back from down 12-1, 12-2, or 12-3 on the first wave, continuing to fight and eventually pulling it out. Some of my best memories from playing sports are the come from behind wins, the long shots, the underdog, that is what competition is all about, the will to win. You might as well make the game P v E or shut it down then, because what is the point if people can just pick and choose the fights they want to fight and ditch out when things get tough.

It gives them a choice. Would you rather they just hold down the eject key instead or just run off a map edge?

We have hit the point where groups are actively killing themselves off to get away from other groups. If that isn't a toxic game mode, what is? There is no "will to win". You, the superior, have crushed it in the rabble that ends up in FP whenever there's an event. These people will not give you a game, unless the game is mining salt while you put their teeth on the curb and stomp.

FP is poisoned bait to PUGs, yet PGI keeps trying to lure them into the grinder to the point of offering free robots. They should be doing the precise opposite. There should be a channel through which people pass into hell FP.

Solo queue players only should not be allowed in FP, full stop, no go. FP players should be required to play in and get a sufficiently good record in QP group queue to be allowed FP access, which would at least imply they learned SOMETHING about the OP force known as "teamwork". 1.0 W/L and K/D with a minimum of 20 games played in group queue. (And while we're at it, separate group and solo stats plzthnksok?)

Every month. As soon as you manage it, you're flagged for FP for the rest of the season even if you drop below 1/1 later. That way, you get a great deal of the chaff threshed out before you even get a single PUG in the FP queue.

El Bandito, on 02 January 2018 - 01:19 AM, said:

Except what many pugs failed to realize was that Scouting is the best way to farm the FP. If they understood it and left Invasion mode alone, it would have resulted in far less frustration, for both sides.

Nah, they weren't getting 250 in Scouting, either. That takes basic build comprehension for the mode, rather than people trying to run random lights and wondering why they were lucky to break 100 MS, much less 250. Reading some of the screenshots from fellow GONKers and Konglets, it wasn't even uncommon to see games where only one player of eight actually broke 250 with decent groups, never mind being on a truly sub-optimal pack of "I'll run my Spider today." taters. Bad players instinctively seek carrying, and the less success, the larger the groups they look for to get it. That's what drives your Invasion disasters. Not that it can't distribute other ways- I was also seeing 400+MS from two players on a given team that knew how to farm and spread damage around to pad their scores -but if you think bad players look bad in a 12-man, you should see them with only three other players to try and hide behind.

The only way to keep the bads out is to filter them through another intermediate game mode entirely that prevents poor group players from ever entering the FP queue to begin with.

[The Basilisk]

Dakota1000, on 02 January 2018 - 03:07 AM, said:

Boy do I love EVIL. They became the monsters that the pugs kept trying to make groups out to be, the real boogeyman to run them off. I just have a love for when one group of people says another group of people is bad when they really aren't so bad and a portion of that group decides to show them what bad really is. Like a slap in the face that says enough is enough.

As for Asym's post, yeah, its totally the people who work together and socialize with eachother that are antisocial, totally not the guys who refuse to talk to eachother, work together, or think about anyone but themselves.

There is a difference between sozialising and gangup "degrade" somebody that you seem to refuse to see.

Going into some forum and challange a worthy adversary to a match is one thing. Now everyone may prepare to maximum extent to win the challange.

But deliberately mowing down a bunch of rental paintballers with pro grade semiautos is just ... (insert redactable material here)

Mystere, on 02 January 2018 - 05:47 AM, said:

Wow! Just wow! Map knowledge and tactics are exploits, just like teamwork.

I have nothing more to say. <smh>

Using unintentional mapfeatures, known gameplay glitches and overall weaknesses of ingame mechanics is still exploitusing...even if those problems where mentioned over and over again and refused to fix by pgi since most of the players would not bother to use them because the achievable advantage for the singe player is negligible.

But if a group goes intentionaly for every stupid advantage to be had just to humiliate and degrade others....(insert more redactable material here)

Edited by The Basilisk, 04 January 2018 - 02:42 AM.
inappropriate content

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The Basilisk, on 03 January 2018 - 02:14 AM, said:

There is a difference between sozialising and and [Redacted] mentality that you seem to refuse to see.

Going into some forum and challange a worthy adversary to a match is one thing. Now everyone may prepare to maximum extent to win the challange.

But deliberately mowing down a bunch of rental paintballers with pro grade semiautos is just beeing [Redacted].

There's different points of view here. I'm of the point of view that said rental paintballers/uncooperative PUGs did not belong in the fight against the pro grade/teamwork using players. Them not already coming to the match prepared in maximum extent to win the challenge is already a disruption to the match. For this reason I see no point in bending to any sort of will that they have, as they should be excluded from the mode by any means necessary until they bring the prerequisite mentality/equipment.

Its basically no shirt, no shoes, no service.

Edited by draiocht, 03 January 2018 - 11:27 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Mystere]

The Basilisk, on 03 January 2018 - 02:14 AM, said:

Using unintentional mapfeatures, known gameplay glitches and overall weaknesses of ingame mechanics is still exploitusing...even if those problems where mentioned over and over again and refused to fix by pgi since most of the players would not bother to use them because the achievable advantage for the singe player is negligible.

But if a group goes intentionaly for every stupid advantage to be had just to [Redacted] others....I know gethogangs with a higher sense of honor and sportmansship.

So you're actually arguing that people should [1] shoot directly at bounding box errors fully knowing the shots will be blocked, and [2] willingly offer themselves to be killed?

Please explain why?

Edited by draiocht, 03 January 2018 - 11:28 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Xiphias]

MischiefSC, on 31 December 2017 - 11:35 PM, said:

Nope. Though 12 people following a bad idea is better than 12 people with no plan at all or playing like they just want to be the last one to die.

I disagree, drop calling can absolutely make things worse. Having 12 people following a bad plan can be much worse than having 12 people playing their own way. Sure, 12 people together is going to almost always be better than having 12 people split all over the map, but pugs have a tendency to cluster together and deathball/nascar just because it is the prevailing strat. Someone telling the whole team to camp under HPG is often a much worse strat than just letting the team spread out and fire on the top. Drop calling =/= coordination either, though it can help. Coordination often wins matches, but drop calling neither guarantees coordination nor improves the odds if the calling is stupid.

It's worse to have the whole team trying to chase down a Commando than it is for the whole team to be shooting at more important targets of their choosing.

N0MAD, on 01 January 2018 - 02:07 AM, said:

Are solo Q and group Q stats listed differently?.

Mischief i take that as a no? since you havent accepted?, i figured as much.
I extend the offer to Bandito or Ash also, either of you wana take it up? back up Mischiefs claim that by calling in the QP you can win 2 out of 3 games?

You absolutely can average a WLR > 2 in QP even without calling. I obviously can't prove it, but seasons 15-17 I spent almost/completely solo dropping and averaged well over a 2.0 in each one. Season 18 I did a lot of dropping in smaller groups and it actually cause my WLR to go down quite a bit.

I don't drop call in QP and I'm sure that if I did I could probably boost my WLR even more (not worth the effort though).

[MischiefSC]

Drop calling isn't just having an idea.

Its calling targets and sharing situational awareness. That absolutely does help.

Sometimes someone has a bad idea. "Everyone go under" on HPG, "lets just hold here" on any map, a lot of bad calls. However 12 players in 1 location is still better than 3 going down in HPG, 4 going top, 2 going around each side and 1 guy on the walls because he's a 733t snyper!

Grouped up is almost universally > Everyone split up.

[TWIAFU]

Lily from animove, on 02 January 2018 - 04:52 AM, said:

PGI makes alls sorts of events, There is no need to participate an event.

And I want to VERY clear;

I am appreciative for all the effort it goes into every single event, no matter what it is or if I participate or not.

They have made a great deal of progress in them in what they first start as to what we do see now. They listen and they do get better.

Those that pare the actual participants, not so much. I wish they would because I honestly think they are missing out.

[TWIAFU]

Brain Cancer, on 02 January 2018 - 10:58 PM, said:

It gives them a choice. Would you rather they just hold down the eject key instead or just run off a map edge?

We have hit the point where groups are actively killing themselves off to get away from other groups. If that isn't a toxic game mode, what is? There is no "will to win".

None are a choice. Specifically those two.

We have to be honest, it was not 'groups suicide to avoid groups'. It was QP/Solo player suicide to avoid a Group. It was non-participants suicide to avoid participants.

It was selfish and should not be tolerated in any circumstance.