87 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 08:59 PM, said:

delete it.

trying to give the SNPPC a niche is holding back the other PPCs

As I said in another thread, PGI can increase SNPPC hitbox by big amount so that it can be use as a Light hunter since the bolt hitboxes will be able to easily tag a mech, but be worse at peeking since the bolt will hit terrain more. That's interesting enough change to keep its niche, IMO.

Dr Hobo, on 27 December 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

it does serve a purpose. A snapshot energy weapon. I can't poke my arm out,shoot once and go back into cover. With LPL I have to do the full burn to do full damage. With a SNPPC I just poke shoot retreat. I use it for weight/space saving over a standard PPC/HPPC.

IS LPL duration is low enough to be much less of a factor.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 December 2017 - 09:12 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

SNPPC will always be worse than the LPL

Nope.

SNPPC combines well with SRMs and AC/10/20 mechanically. LPL do not, even with as short a burn as they have.

El Bandito, on 27 December 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

As I said in another thread, PGI can increase SNPPC hitbox by big amount so that it can be use as a Light hunter since the bolt hitboxes will be able to easily tag a mech, but be worse at peeking since the bolt will hit terrain more. That's interesting enough change to keep its niche, IMO.

Do we really need another anti-Light weapon, though?

[Khobai]

Quote

SNPPC combines well with SRMs and AC/10/20 mechanically. LPL do not, even with as short a burn as they have.

PPC would combine well mechanically with those weapons too if you removed its min range

hence my whole point

[Dr Hobo]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

PPC would combine well mechanically with those weapons too if you removed its min range

hence my whole point

But be heavier,and larger with more crit slots taken. I'd rather the SNPPC become like the shotgun of PPCs. Shoots a bunch of little PPC projectiles and be the LB of energy weapons.

El Bandito, on 27 December 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

As I said in another thread, PGI can increase SNPPC hitbox by big amount so that it can be use as a Light hunter since the bolt hitboxes will be able to easily tag a mech, but be worse at peeking since the bolt will hit terrain more. That's interesting enough change to keep its niche, IMO.




IS LPL duration is low enough to be much less of a factor.

It's long enough that on some mechs,it's certainly noticeable. And it's also going to ride the heat scale faster than the SNPPC will. While PPCs in general pump out tremendous amounts of heat,the heat can easily be ridden to the redline and sustained IMO easier than LPLs can.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

Do we really need another anti-Light weapon, though?

Yes. For the sake of weapon diversity. SNPPC limited in optimum range, anyway.

Dr Hobo, on 27 December 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

It's long enough that on some mechs,it's certainly noticeable. And it's also going to ride the heat scale faster than the SNPPC will. While PPCs in general pump out tremendous amounts of heat,the heat can easily be ridden to the redline and sustained IMO easier than LPLs can.

False. SNPPC has more HPS than that of LPL. And one can ride the red line better with LPL's 7.25 heat than SNPPC's 10 heat.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 December 2017 - 09:26 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

But be heavier,and larger with more crit slots taken. I'd rather the SNPPC become like the shotgun of PPCs. Shoots a bunch of little PPC projectiles and be the LB of energy weapons.

well now youre just making weapons up lol

[Dr Hobo]

El Bandito, on 27 December 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

Yes. For the sake of weapon diversity. SNPPC limited in optimum range, anyway.




False. SNPPC has more HPS than that of LPL.

LPL has a faster refire rate thus raising your heat faster. I overheat more on my dual LPL Vindicator than I do with my dual SNPPC one.

I find it easier to manage heat on the SNPPC than I do on the LPL. As much as I like both weapons systems(I run a Hunchback with 2 LPLs strapped to the top mounts in the hunch). i like them,I see no reason to remove them,change them? Sure.

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 09:26 PM, said:

well now youre just making weapons up lol

2 crit slots for LPL. 3 for normal PPC 2 for SNPPC on Sarna.

And no,you said you don't want SNPPC to hold the other PPCs back. Ergo,I just suggested an idea turn them into the LB of energy weapons.

The barrel is sawn off you know. So it could make sense that the projectile would break apart before impact,thus,turning it into an energy shotgun.

[El Bandito]

Dr Hobo, on 27 December 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

LPL has a faster refire rate thus raising your heat faster. I overheat more on my dual LPL Vindicator than I do with my dual SNPPC one.

FFS, just go to smurphy and check for yourself. http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

1. LPL has only slightly faster fire rate (cooldown + duration) but far less heat, which means SNPPC has more heat per second. Do the math. 1.98 HPS for LPL vs. 2.50 HPS for SNPPC.

2. At least one Vindicator has PPC heat reduction quirk, and most of them have PPC velocity quirk so it is a biased observation. Compare the weapons in general context next time.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 December 2017 - 01:17 AM.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 08:19 PM, said:

well the other alternative is just get rid of min range on PPCs entirely

and just remove the SNPPC from the game

since balancing the SNPPC is the only reason PPCs still need a min range

is the SNPPC really something we need if PPCs have no min range? nope.

It's the other way around actually. The SNPPC has a very valid reason to exist - it costs only two slots. With the ERPPC covering the long range bracket, and the fact that the HPPC exists, there's really not much reason to have standard PPCs - they're just bigger heavy snubs that deal the same damage and if you want more range you go with the ERPPC anyways.

[El Bandito]

Tarogato, on 27 December 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

It's the other way around actually. The SNPPC has a very valid reason to exist - it costs only two slots. With the ERPPC covering the long range bracket, and the fact that the HPPC exists, there's really not much reason to have standard PPCs - they're just bigger heavy snubs that deal the same damage and if you want more range you go with the ERPPC anyways.

IS ERPPC costs too much heat for the amount of damage it deals. For long range ERLL is generally preferable, unless the mech has significant ERPPC quirks.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 December 2017 - 09:32 PM.

[Lightfoot]

I wonder about this too. PPCs do good damage, but it doesn't get applied to armor damage as fast as it should, not like firing an AC10 to be sure. 2xAC10 easily crush 2xERPPC per salvo. Is some of the damage diverted to PPC ECM disruption?

MWO missing PPC effects:

Sensor Disruption on target.
Heat Surge on target.
Field Inhibitor (which can be disengaged to fire within 90 meters for full damage, but it splash damages your mech too).

Anyway, PPCs should be doing the same damage as an AC10. They are both projectile weapons.

[Khobai]

PPCs do 10 damage same as AC10s

AC10s fire much faster though

Quote

Sensor Disruption on target.
Heat Surge on target.
Field Inhibitor (which can be disengaged to fire within 90 meters for full damage, but it splash damages your mech too).

PPCs shouldnt cause heat surge. Plasma Weapons cause heat surge.

PPCs should have a skill unlock in the skill tree that gives them a chance to scramble HUD/sensor functionality

Quote

It's the other way around actually. The SNPPC has a very valid reason to exist - it costs only two slots.

paying one extra ton and one extra slot for a PPC without min range would be worth it.

you could even lower the heat of the PPC from 9.5 to 8.5-9

could also add PPC capacitors. a LPPC with a capacitor would largely fill the SNPPC role. For 4 tons and 3 crits youd get a 5 damage PPC that can chargeup for 10 damage and has no min range.

those options would be far better than the SNPPC. The SNPPC is simply not a necessary weapon. It can be deleted.

Quote

IS ERPPC costs too much heat for the amount of damage it deals

its currently better than the CERPPC in any situation where splash damage doesnt matter. and splash damage usually doesnt matter.

granted the CERPPC runs a little toasty too. Could probably lower the heat on both by half a point.

Edited by Khobai, 27 December 2017 - 09:53 PM.

[Airu]

Leave SNPPC alone, my spiders got more fun because of them. Maybe give them additional splash damage (they should be like energy shotgun), or make damage scale with decrease in distance, so that at 0m it does 15 and decreases to 10 at 90m, and then follows the current scaling (would make it an inverse of regular ppcs and good for close and personal brawling).

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 09:44 PM, said:

its currently better than the CERPPC in any situation where splash damage doesnt matter. and splash damage usually doesnt matter.

granted the CERPPC runs a little toasty too. Could probably lower the heat on both by half a point.

Splash damage always matters, as one simply doesn't land 100% of the shots in the sections they desire. CERPPC's higher heat is offset by its faster velocity, longer cooldown, and the ability cram in 1 more DHS due to it costing 1 ton less than IS ERPPC. Heck, just the fact Clans have 2 slot DHS, and 7 slot Endo/Ferro automatically makes CERPPC better weapon by default.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 December 2017 - 10:00 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

literally the only reason the SNPPC exists is because those other PPCs have min ranges. if you remove the min ranges its not needed.

Aside from being lighter, can boat more versus LPPCs before hitting GH.

Then again, that's why we should just lower the heat, even if it's just slightly. It's a close-range weapon, and all that heat just deters the use. Put it at 8.5 Heat, it would still be one of the hottest -- versus 7.25 of the LPL, 7 and 8 of STD and ER Large Lasers, 2 Medium Lasers would still do better damage/heat, but it would still be okay to use.

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

lasers dont run nearly as hot as PPCs

so to rephrase: a defining trait of PPCs is heat but also being much hotter than lasers

How fun would it be if Clanners weren't even balanced by longer duration lasers, burst fire acs, stream-fired LRMs. etc. etc. Quite simply, Clanners are supposed to be OP.

Why aren't you arguing that we should just let IS tech be completely disparaged, remove over quirked IS mechs? etc. etc.

But then we have game balance to run. Flavor is one thing, but then imbalanced game is another. Stop with that, it's extremely stupid.

It should be the "hottest", but not so much that it compromises the balance aspect. 9.5 versus 10.0, 10 is still technically hotter. Now consider the LPL doing 7.25 heat verus 9.5 of normal PPC, 10 of SNPPC. Likewise the 2.5 HPS of the SNPPC vs the 1.98 of the LPL.

Hell, even if the IS ERML does 4.5 heat, but it does so over 0.90s, that heat-dissipation can counteract, as opposed of the instant 5 of the LPPCs which makes it act hotter. Apply that to the Large lasers with 7/8 heat/shot, with 1.10 duration, versus the SNPPC.

I would argue that the apparent hotness of the instant heat into your gauge would be enough, as it's far more over-heat risk -- cause with lasers we have a time to react to inject cool shots during fire. It's not like it has the range of the PPCs to worry about anyways. And at 8.5 it's still hotter than the lasers near it's weight.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 December 2017 - 10:28 PM.

[Requiemking]

Khobai, why is it that every single suggestion of yours that I see seems to be hellbent on removing as much fun from MWO as possible. Remove Snubbies just because, remove RLs because you don't like them, make Scout mode as unfriendly to Lights as possible. I'm starting to think you hate fun or something.

[The6thMessenger]

Tarogato, on 27 December 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

It's the other way around actually. The SNPPC has a very valid reason to exist - it costs only two slots.

And -1 ton, which my (heretical) Urbanmech totally approves. It's like AC20 without the ammo issue.

Requiemking, on 27 December 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

Khobai, why is it that every single suggestion of yours that I see seems to be hellbent on removing as much fun from MWO as possible. Remove Snubbies just because, remove RLs because you don't like them, make Scout mode as unfriendly to Lights as possible. I'm starting to think you hate fun or something.

Yeah, his suggestions are pretty extreme, like he's pretty religious about it. And he doesn't even have arguments to justify the changes.

He also needs to learn how to quote properly.

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

Do we really need another anti-Light weapon, though

You mean "anti-fast-light"?

Honestly, I'm okay with it being able to hit lights much easier. Sure beats Streaks.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 December 2017 - 10:55 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 27 December 2017 - 10:33 PM, said:

You mean "anti-fast-light"?

Honestly, I'm okay with it being able to hit lights much easier. Sure beats Streaks.

I'd rather face the Streaks, TBQH.

[Davegt27]

MW2 had an iconic futuristic weapon called PPC's

a coworker at the time explained to me that it had to be ball lightning since
real lightning would be impossible to direct and just plain stupid

little did I know that battle tech would be dominated by then 10 year olds

so we went from cool to crap

the cool
https://youtu.be/T3BkL67cDjQ?t=253

[Khobai]

Quote

Khobai, why is it that every single suggestion of yours that I see seems to be hellbent on removing as much fun from MWO as possible.

I wasnt aware SNPPC were fun

they seem pretty terrible to me and I would never use them