250 replies to this topic

[Novakaine]

Wherever the solution is.
PGI better come to it quick or Mechwarrior will die before they know it.
Because simply put most of us will be far too ticked off to care about Mechwarrior.
Or Mechwarrior 5.

Edited by Novakaine, 29 December 2017 - 09:29 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

justcallme A S H, on 29 December 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

One simple issue:

- The population cannot support it.

Ross and his grand FP3.0 failure-patch saw to the major kill off of FP population right then and there.
You split both queues, everyone's wait times will go through the roof. People will stop playing all together.

Why do you think we have QP with Respawns? One bukkit? Are you oblivious to why all this has come about?

So basically, PGI let the pugs loose. I guess we know now "Who let the dogs out?" amirite?

People play games for fun -- at least i do -- and if the game becomes too frustrating to play that i'm being more ticked off than having fun, i won't play it anymore. Like how people mass-suicides on the other thread - i don't condone it, but it does explain the behavior.

Sure, separate buckets does increase drop time. But wouldn't be the result is kinda the same if people are put off by the difficulty of FP because not a lot of pugs will flock to it? That people might as well mass-suicide than get another roflstomp?

[Mystere]

N0MAD, on 29 December 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

ASH.
A lot of people will tell you the FP pop is so low because there isnt separate Qs.
Todays most popular Thread was about a team just quitting when faced with a large group that was just going to farm them, this is just lowering the potential FP population.
A separate Q would only increase the population, the only way it would go down is if teams would refuse to play other teams instead of being able to farm pugs.
Everyones game experience would benefit from separate Qs Pugs would get better games, units would get better more competitive games, only the clubbers/farmers would see a downside to this.
Using the excuse of low population isnt valid when you consider that keeping the current system is just driving the population away and lowering it even further.
There are many more problems in FP, as you point out, but this is something that PGI can fix unlike the many other problems they wont or cant fix.

Adding separate queues -- and nothing else -- will not fix CW.

[xVLFBERHxT]

El Bandito, on 29 December 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Doubt it. Most of our drops are against hub groups and full units, rather than pugs. And we drop more than most.

So it seems, there is no reason to be against against seperate queus.

After the split, pugs have longer wait times, but they play mostly at events and have to deal with it.

Groups will not be affected, because the population is ok/ groups are not in need for pugs to play (as you say). If faction plays mean goal is a coordinated group play (and not sealclubbing), a separate group mode will be healthier, more challenging and more fun for the pro player then ever!

So lets split!

Edited by xVLFBERHxT, 29 December 2017 - 09:56 PM.

[Bud Crue]

PGI needs to recognize that Ash speaks the truth (no matter how much they may dislike hearing it), and then recognize that the only "solution" for lack of a better term is that which Tarogato has proposed above. There just isn't the population to do anything else. Phase 3 brought us to this. There is no fix. There is only mitigation.

There is no other choice other than status quo (in which case people need to stfu) or change it so that solos need to group in this here group based mode if they want to play it. Anything else kills the mode out right. Accept it or play it as is and stop the complaining about getting stomped/clubed or whatever. Because as it is, that stomp/clubbing is the mode working as PGI intended. It is what they created.

[Fleeb the Mad]

If I recall correctly from the last (and somewhat dated) group queue info from PGI, of all the people who play MWO, only about 5% play in the group queue. Of those I believe somewhere around 20% of that number was teams greater than 5 people.

I'll presume that if you're in the higher tiers you'll see proportionally more of them, but here's the punch line:

Any move to put the big groups in their own queue will essentially be sending them off to die.

A queue full of small groups could truck along just fine, but the remainder would be completely starved for players and it would collapse in short order. Even if there were enough people if 10% of the group pool was large enough to draw from, large teams need the small groups to fill uneven numbers, like teams of 8 or 9.

This means PGI is left with a choice. To just demolish that fraction of the player base to make gaming more pleasant for the remainder, or to allow those groups to be matched against pick-up teams that are generally under a huge disadvantage. The cost is most everyone will occasionally get curbstomped by a large, organized team. At the moment PGI allows that 1% of players to hold an advantage because the only other option is to forbid them from existing.

I rather wish people in organized full team drops would realize every time they go out curbstomping PUG teams that they're inevitably adding a strand to the rope that will be used to hang them. If the masses of small team PUGers get disillusioned, you can be sure PGI will throw large groups under the bus to keep them happy. The numbers are entirely ruthless in that regard. The group queue will survive without large teams. It won't survive without the small teams that continue to have the worst experience there.

[Nightbird]

We had a solo queue for FP, it didn't work. Queues too long due to pop.

[justcallme A S H]

The6thMessenger, on 29 December 2017 - 09:43 PM, said:

So basically, PGI let the pugs loose. I guess we know now "Who let the dogs out?" amirite?

People play games for fun -- at least i do -- and if the game becomes too frustrating to play that i'm being more ticked off than having fun, i won't play it anymore. Like how people mass-suicides on the other thread - i don't condone it, but it does explain the behavior.

Sure, separate buckets does increase drop time. But wouldn't be the result is kinda the same if people are put off by the difficulty of FP because not a lot of pugs will flock to it? That people might as well mass-suicide than get another roflstomp?

So the flip side is kill off the remaining active units in MWO? The people that play the mode how it's designed? Yep, that's even smarter

Separating buckets will end FP in the same way FP3.0 did. MWO doesn't need that again.

SteelMantis, on 29 December 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers from, last season I was player number 10,593 at the end of the monthly leaderboard for QP and played around 3 matches a day, everyday. So there are at least 10,000 reasonably active players in QP. All of whom may play a pug vs. pug queue. I'm around the 1,000th merc pilot this season though and have barely touched FP since the season started (had a new baby and it's been easier to fit the shorter QP games in). Grated a fair number of the big units went loyalist but I'd be suprised if there were over 1,000k people who play FP regularly .

The leaderboard? People that have played 100 games or more in Season 2. I class 100 being a solid amount for activity over a few months.

No idea where you are getting your numbers from however. Quick play has 28,000 players monthly who play more than 10 matches.

I actually watch the numbers/stats of the game monthly. They are not wrong.

SteelMantis, on 29 December 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

The important thing is to stop losing players because of a poorly designed FP.

We already lost 1,000s because of Ross's great FP3.0 - that is indisputable (many units/players will back me on this as we all saw it).

What you guys are proposing will literally do that again. You are being incredibly shortsighted and it will be severely damaging to the games already dwindling population.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 29 December 2017 - 11:33 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

justcallme A S H, on 29 December 2017 - 11:33 PM, said:

What you guys are proposing will literally do that again. You are being incredibly shortsighted and it will be severely damaging to the games already dwindling population.

Any more shortsighted than making an entire mode a totally miserable to the (inexperienced) majority, resulting in low population in the first place?

justcallme A S H, on 29 December 2017 - 11:33 PM, said:

So the flip side is kill off the remaining active units in MWO? The people that play the mode how it's designed? Yep, that's even smarter

"Killing off" the units by bringing life to the mode itself? Isn't that better?

This "designed for units" are just killing off the mode by making it off putting to the majority. If you want to keep it a seal-clubbing extravaganza, sure. But right now, it's really more of a dead horse.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 29 December 2017 - 11:52 PM.

[Mystere]

The6thMessenger, on 29 December 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

If you want to keep it a seal-clubbing extravaganza, sure.

"Killing off" the units by bringing life to the mode itself? Isn't that better?

This "designed for units" are just killing off the mode by making it off putting to the majority.

Here's are a few historical tidbits for you, given you were not here when it happened:

• When PGI limited the QP group queue to a maximum of 4-person groups, MWO hemorrhaged a whole lot of unit-focused players.
  
• When PGI created a queue for 12-person groups only, it eventually because a ghost town.

Finally, I will just quote myself:

Mystere, on 25 December 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

... the problem with CW is not the queues. The problem always has been that it's just a mere skeleton of what it was supposed to be. EACH AND EVERY PROBLEM COMES FROM THAT FACT.

Mystere, on 26 December 2017 - 03:46 PM, said:

It is PGI's scraps-based approach to everything (the word "piecemeal" was too generous) is what doomed the game from the beginning.

Creating a hard separation between groups and solos -- and nothing else for several months, as per their usual modus operandi -- will just just destroy CW even more as it transforms into a solo-only game mode.

[The6thMessenger]

Mystere, on 29 December 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

Here's are a few historical tidbits for you, given you were not here when it happened:

• When PGI limited the QP group queue to a maximum of 4-person groups, MWO hemorrhaged a whole lot of unit-focused players.
  
• When PGI created a queue for 12-person groups only, it eventually because a ghost town.

Considering that I'm actually advocating for solo-queue, and on the basis of the second point, i'm pretty sure that it would actually fill it due to better accessibility. The first one though, I don't know how many unit-focused players were there. But i'm pretty sure that getting the remaining not unit-focused players would breathe life into the mode.

Mystere, on 29 December 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

Finally, I will just quote myself:

If it's aside from that, maybe you should be starting another thread than going here.

[justcallme A S H]

The6thMessenger, on 29 December 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

Any more shortsighted than making an entire mode a totally miserable to the (inexperienced) majority, resulting in low population in the first place?

"Killing off" the units by bringing life to the mode itself? Isn't that better?

This "designed for units" are just killing off the mode by making it off putting to the majority. If you want to keep it a seal-clubbing extravaganza, sure. But right now, it's really more of a dead horse.

What of the below is unclear to you?




The population is low, because of what FP3.0 did. Before then it was actually quite good.

You kill units off you've sealed MWO's death. If you think that is smart well, I don't even know where to go with that.

[xVLFBERHxT]

Nightbird, on 29 December 2017 - 11:26 PM, said:

We had a solo queue for FP, it didn't work. Queues too long due to pop.

So you need pugs to play (farm...)?

[The6thMessenger]

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2017 - 12:15 AM, said:

What of the below is unclear to you?




The population is low, because of what FP3.0 did. Before then it was actually quite good.

You kill units off you've sealed MWO's death. If you think that is smart well, I don't even know where to go with that.

What, you think you have a smoking gun just because you think i don't understand that banner? No it's clear to me.

And if you have not been paying attention, we are precisely advocating for it to be changed from a unit-centric mode to for-everyone. So arguing that it's for units is ******* beside the point, it's pretty god damn irrelevant from the start. Stop using such bull **** argument.

https://mwomercs.com...me-to-this-sad/

Being entitled to units isn't helping, it's just sealing it's death even more. Units couldn't get a decent game because either they are dealing with uncoordinated pugs that aren't a challenge, or those that just mass suicides, or there aren't enough players to get a drop, and when there's enough players it's people just trying to get free stuffs that make them end up facing pugs for seal clubbing.

The way it is, FP is dying anyways.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 30 December 2017 - 12:57 AM.

[Lupis Volk]

N0MAD, on 29 December 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

After reading myriads of posts/threads on these forums for years on end about seal clubbing, unfair matches, stomps, farming etc in FP, it seems that something should really be done about it.
Pugs say "its not fair its not competitive", and units say "we dont want to seal club, we want good competitive matches, we dont want to farm".
So if units truly want competitive matches, dont want to seal club etc, why dont these units actively and in numbers petition PGI to add the Solo/small group Q?.
You big units do want a competitive arena dont you? you dont want to seal club do you? you dont want to farm pugs do you?, well the majority of pugs dont want this and a very vocal about it, so shouldn't you, the big units, want the same thing. If anything you should want it more, youre looking for good games and competition to showcase your units skills etc dont you?..
Seems that units should be the forefront of a movement/petition to fix this by having separate Q.
You do want a fair and competitive game mode right?

So you want to punish Teams in a Team based game mode That Alerts you that your going into a game mode all about Teamwork and that you'll see organised units and organised Teams. How anti social do you have to be that Teams have to be punished for playing a team based game mode like a freaking team would?

Edited by Lupis Volk, 30 December 2017 - 12:59 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

All the antisocial, apparently.

The old "but I don't wanna group up"... Yeah cool, don't complain/whine or just stick to QP.

The6thMessenger, on 30 December 2017 - 12:51 AM, said:

And if you have not been paying attention, we are precisely advocating for it to be changed from a unit-centric mode to for-everyone. So arguing that it's for units is ******* beside the point, it's pretty god damn irrelevant from the start. Stop using such bull **** argument.

It is you that is not paying attention, actually.

The suggestion to split the queues WILL damage the game beyond repair. It's why the queue was merged in the first place - the damage that was done during FP3.0. Doing it again will only cause further decline in the population.

Something you are either forgetting or choosing to ignore, it doesn't matter which really.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 December 2017 - 01:40 AM.

[FallingAce]

Nightbird, on 29 December 2017 - 11:26 PM, said:

We had a solo queue for FP, it didn't work. Queues too long due to pop.

Not that it really matters much, but...

What PGI actually tried tried was a unit tag/ no unit tag split queue.

That is not the same thing as solo/group queue.

Then PGI allowed a work-a-round buy allowing players to form a 1-man unit.

Thereby allowing people without an actual unit into the unit tag queue and emptying out the non unit tag queue.

PGI's split queues were designed to fail.

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

The suggestion to split the queues WILL damage the game beyond repair. It's why the queue was merged in the first place - the damage that was done during FP3.0. Doing it again will only cause further decline in the population.

I'm pretty sure the long tom of phase 3 and the buckits of phase 4 (and a dozen other reasons) have all ready damaged Faction Warfare more than another (failed) attempt at split queues would.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

FP 3.0 is what closed the casket on QQ and 4.0 put in the ground. Boom. 25 players gone, never to come back. And if the long awaited mode for MWO destroyed my unit, I can only imagine what it did to others (logically, made them quit too).

Splitting queues in FP would be disastrous with the anemic playerbase this game has. They'd be better scrapping it entirely and starting over or changing it to a normal mode without planets and tech base loyalties, allowing people to fit four mechs into a tonnage limit regardless of tech, and making two queues: solo and group. Which makes it essentially respawn mode.

[N0MAD]

justcallme A S H, on 29 December 2017 - 11:33 PM, said:

So the flip side is kill off the remaining active units in MWO? The people that play the mode how it's designed? Yep, that's even smarter

Separating buckets will end FP in the same way FP3.0 did. MWO doesn't need that again.



The leaderboard? People that have played 100 games or more in Season 2. I class 100 being a solid amount for activity over a few months.

No idea where you are getting your numbers from however. Quick play has 28,000 players monthly who play more than 10 matches.

I actually watch the numbers/stats of the game monthly. They are not wrong.

Why would splitting the Qs kill of the mode for group players? surely they would be happy they are finally playing other groups?, it would certainly increase the numbers of casual players as they wouldnt be farmed.
If youre saying groups would leave because they only get to play other groups the implication is they dont want to play other groups.
The numbers are indeed wrong, those numbers are accounts that have played not players, there are large numbers of players with single and multiple Alt accounts (well documented on these forums) who log in with said accounts to get the event goodies that are offered continually. There are never ending events being offered and the alt accounts just log on for the goodies, so your numbers of people playing? not accurate at all, surprised that some one as enlightened as you wouldnt realise this when writing such a statement.
Anyways back to playing a game with a real competitive mode, im of to play ranked mode in WoWs where i get to play against people in tier 8 that own tier 8 ships and the mode wont thro in a 7 man vs a group of pugs small teams. Seems they have no probs filling Qs under this bad system of actually pitting people against others of similar rank/tech levels, who would of thunk it

Edited by N0MAD, 30 December 2017 - 03:20 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Lupis Volk, on 30 December 2017 - 12:58 AM, said:

So you want to punish Teams in a Team based game mode That Alerts you that your going into a game mode all about Teamwork and that you'll see organised units and organised Teams. How anti social do you have to be that Teams have to be punished for playing a team based game mode like a freaking team would?

That's funny, if it's even a team-based game, why even be fine with single people getting in? What's up with all of this resistance to this change? Having different buckets would pit teams versus teams, not random fling that decided they just want to be bad at FP than QP for a change; they literally have to be stupid somewhere else.

Please don't tell me that it's literally just the delight in the power play.

Spoiler

xVLFBERHxT, on 29 December 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

El Bandito, on 29 December 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Khobai, on 29 December 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

if they added two buckets to FP, the only ones that have anything to lose are premades

enough pugs play now that pugs could find matches no problem

the premades would have longer wait times and wouldnt be able to sealclub though

Doubt it. Most of our drops are against hub groups and full units, rather than pugs. And we drop more than most.

So it seems, there is no reason to be against against seperate queus.

After the split, pugs have longer wait times, but they play mostly at events and have to deal with it.

Groups will not be affected, because the population is ok/ groups are not in need for pugs to play (as you say). If faction plays mean goal is a coordinated group play (and not sealclubbing), a separate group mode will be healthier, more challenging and more fun for the pro player then ever!

So lets split!

What's up with the resistance if that's the case?

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

All the antisocial, apparently.

The old "but I don't wanna group up"... Yeah cool, don't complain/whine or just stick to QP.

And don't complain when you can't get a drop due to not much pugs on the enemy team you can farm. Or when you finally got a drop, and they mass suicide, like what happened to El Bandito.

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

It is you that is not paying attention, actually.

The suggestion to split the queues WILL damage the game beyond repair. It's why the queue was merged in the first place - the damage that was done during FP3.0. Doing it again will only cause further decline in the population.

Something you are either forgetting or choosing to ignore, it doesn't matter which really.

Hmm, didn't they did something different?

Spoiler

FallingAce, on 30 December 2017 - 01:58 AM, said:

Not that it really matters much, but...

What PGI actually tried tried was a unit tag/ no unit tag split queue.

That is not the same thing as solo/group queue.

Then PGI allowed a work-a-round buy allowing players to form a 1-man unit.

Thereby allowing people without an actual unit into the unit tag queue and emptying out the non unit tag queue.

PGI's split queues were designed to fail.

Even then, consider how solo-queue of the QP -- which what we (i) were advocating in the first place -- kind of works. In my experience, getting a solo-drop is faster than a group-drop. Sure there would be increase in wait time due to different buckets, but if anything it will completely lessen group-drops and increase solo-drops due to it having easier matchmaking and kind of force people to play on their own to find matches easier, and would end up quick.

Spoiler

Khobai, on 29 December 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

if they added two buckets to FP, the only ones that have anything to lose are premades

enough pugs play now that pugs could find matches no problem

the premades would have longer wait times and wouldnt be able to sealclub though

N0MAD, on 30 December 2017 - 03:11 AM, said:

Why would splitting the Qs kill of the mode for group players? surely they would be happy they are finally playing other groups?, it would certainly increase the numbers of casual players as they wouldnt be farmed.

These.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 30 December 2017 - 03:47 AM.