250 replies to this topic

[Horseman]

Lupis Volk, on 03 January 2018 - 04:11 AM, said:

Well a "baby seal" has to learn and talks and videos can only do so much.

Yes, but it can continue to improve in Quick Play until it graduates to Navy SEAL. For a beginning Faction Play deck, four combat mechs he regularly does 400+ damage in QP will not be optimal, but certainly adequate for a starting point.

Quote

What we're seeing here is a refusal to learn/play/engage in team work and outright hostility towards those who are playing the game mode in the bloody way it was meant to be played.

Absolutely.

[Lupis Volk]

Horseman, on 03 January 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

Yes, but it can continue to improve in Quick Play until it graduates to Navy SEAL. For a beginning Faction Play deck, four combat mechs he regularly does 400+ damage in QP will not be optimal, but certainly adequate for a starting point.

However QP doesn't teach you everything you need to know for FW.

[TKSax]

CFC Conky, on 03 January 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

Here's a crazy idea which has probably been mentioned before (and flamed ):

Trial mechs only in fp.

Player/team skill would be the biggest factor determining performance. Pugs don't have to figure out the 'meta'. Change the trial mechs more often.

Will never happen.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

I have dropped with Both 228 and SJR in trial mechs... Of course we were very specific on the trials we picked. Since the trials now are to a certian extent Meta or former Meta mechs, the outcome was not much differnt if we were dropping in our owned mechs.

Back in FP 1.0 or 2.0 I know that 228 was bidding away mechs, so they would hit other units and eject thier first drop, and still won most of the time.

Edited by TKSax, 03 January 2018 - 02:12 PM.

[TKSax]

Vellron2005, on 03 January 2018 - 12:25 AM, said:

Hah.. you're one to talk.. It's cose' of players like this that seal clubbing in FP is a thing.. but yeah, sure, say it isn't so.. we all know who are the players and units doing the clubbing.. of course they would object..

It's not unexpected..

Now I'm just looking forward to hearing from a few other known trouble makers..

I am sure you think my unit is one of those who units how does the clubbing, but we played in both the comp queue and the Faction Queue. Also I remind you that before Faction Play was released PGI was not going to let solo players in faction play and most of the units agree with that. However some vocal players who did not want to join units but wanted to play faction play hounded PGI until by the time it was released solo players were allowed.

[Nema Nabojiv]

tauSentry, on 03 January 2018 - 09:41 AM, said:

Issue #272: Remove the ability to solo-drop in Faction Play

Yes! That which is falling should also be pushed! Thus spoke Zarathustra Kerensky!

[Horseman]

Lupis Volk, on 03 January 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

However QP doesn't teach you everything you need to know for FW.

No, but you don't have much hope in FP without getting competent at QP first - especially now that QP modes are found in Invasion queue.

Edited by Horseman, 03 January 2018 - 03:00 PM.

[Mystere]

TKSax, on 03 January 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

Also I remind you that before Faction Play was released PGI was not going to let solo players in faction play and most of the units agree with that. However some vocal players who did not want to join units but wanted to play faction play hounded PGI until by the time it was released solo players were allowed.

You're welcome.

Edited by Mystere, 03 January 2018 - 02:51 PM.

[sub2000]

TKSax, on 03 January 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

I am sure you think my unit is one of those who units how does the clubbing, but we played in both the comp queue and the Faction Queue. Also I remind you that before Faction Play was released PGI was not going to let solo players in faction play and most of the units agree with that. However some vocal players who did not want to join units but wanted to play faction play hounded PGI until by the time it was released solo players were allowed.

The boring true is that more than 70% active (regularly playing) merc pilots with W2L ratio 2 or higher are stacked in IS. you can ramble how much you want about what was in prehistoric times or how much you hate to fight bads. But the true remains, somehow players who determine matches stay on one side. It was so when Clan was OP, it is so when IS is op.
FOFF.

[justcallme A S H]

^ What?

Most units only went IS in the last 7 days? They have hardly been there for months on end. Most just came off 3-4 week stints in Clan space.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 04 January 2018 - 03:46 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Vellron2005, on 03 January 2018 - 12:25 AM, said:

Hah.. you're one to talk.. It's cose' of players like this that seal clubbing in FP is a thing.. but yeah, sure, say it isn't so.. we all know who are the players and units doing the clubbing.. of course they would object..

It's not unexpected..

Now I'm just looking forward to hearing from a few other known trouble makers..

Considering what you actually drop in while playing CW I can now see the motivation behind you wanting to no longer allow Groups in the Group queue while you play solo.

LRM 30 Adders? Really?

Lupis Volk, on 03 January 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

However QP doesn't teach you everything you need to know for FW.

Actually, it teaches you bad habits and how to fail in CW.

[TKSax]

sub2000, on 04 January 2018 - 12:46 AM, said:

The boring true is that more than 70% active (regularly playing) merc pilots with W2L ratio 2 or higher are stacked in IS. you can ramble how much you want about what was in prehistoric times or how much you hate to fight bads. But the true remains, somehow players who determine matches stay on one side. It was so when Clan was OP, it is so when IS is op.
FOFF.

LOL IS is not OP right now, Clans still have all the best mechs for Invasion by a wide margin.

90% of the matches I played in with my unit were boring as far as the gameplay, they were fun hanging out with 6 to 12 guys that were playing with and having a good time with that.. 228 was IS before the event started and stayed IS for the duration of the event. We usually switch back and forth per the mechanics that PGI gave us, so seems like your problems is with the mechanics that PGI gave unit to use. There is no good reason to be a loyalist, so why would people just stay on one side.

Edited by TKSax, 04 January 2018 - 06:02 AM.

[Palor]

The simplest solution is have Quickplay is turned into Solo drop only, and Faction Play is turned into Group drop only.

[Tiewolf]

This discussion shows everything that is wrong with FW! There are basically 2 factions. The clubbed, the pugs, new players and seasoned players that really like to save FW.
The other faction are the seasoned players that are organized in units and like to change nothing because they love their little farm.
Their arguments:
1. FW is a failure so let's keep everything
like it is (where is the logic?)
2. We already tried pug queues (yeah with so much limitations that it had to fail)
3. Pugs just have to group up and get on coms (sure that's all why they lose against premades with years of FW experience and selected players)
4. The population is too low (Assuming that the player base will stay the same is stupid because many players like me will play less QP if there is a place to have fun for casuals in FW!)
5. No pug queues because Units will sync drop in pug queue to farm (if that happens pgi plz prevent this with a MM that prevents players with the same unit in one drop or only pit players with the highest KDR or damage against each other so that the farmers only meet farmers)

The real 2 problems are that new players have no save haven to learn FW and that PGI listens only to veteran players. FW experience is to agonizing against the veterans so only few new players will ever stay with this game mode. The veterans no matter what they state in public want to protect their little seal farm. Otherwise Units would finish a game by objectives to get better opponents quicker if it would be true that they don't want to club seals. But that doesn't happen in game...strange isn't it. And these units are the players that pgi relies on for development feedback without questioning there hidden agendas. Just sad.

Edited by Tiewolf, 04 January 2018 - 02:10 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Tiewolf, on 04 January 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

The real 2 problems are that new players have no save haven to learn FW and that PGI listens only to veteran players. FW experience is to agonizing against the veterans so only few new players will ever stay with this game mode. The veterans no matter what they state in public want to protect their little seal farm. Otherwise Units would finish a game by objectives to get better opponents quicker if it would be true that they don't want to club seals. But that doesn't happen in game...strange isn't it. And these units are the players that pgi relies on for development feedback without questioning there hidden agendas. Just sad.

That's a flat out lie. Unless you have some means of mindreading or magical method of understanding intent. As to why the winning team rarely decides to take a 50% pay cut on a match and spend even less of their time actually getting to shoot robots instead of watching loading screens, that's been explained repeatedly.

We could get into the nature of projection and insecurity but I don't think that's hard for anyone to figure out here. If you have a suggestion to make, make it. However it's absolute dishonest bull **** to start out saying 'everyone who agrees with me is a good person and trustworthy and only has the games best interests at heart while everyone else is just a mean ol' bully who wants the game to fail'.

Your idea is also bad. As has been said and pointed out repeatedly but either you've never actually read any of the endless threads on this topic or just refuse to understand them, small groups use comms to successfully coordinate with pugs and pug teams use coms to successfully coordinate all the time. Be that by people driving their W/L even in QP way up to pug teams that beat most premades, hence why only a tiny handful (as in less than 5) of units have an amazing w/l - they beat units as often as pug teams and the great majority of premades regularly lose to pug teams - hence why almost every unit save a small handful has a w/l under 3.0 (which is about 75% win rate) and the vast majority are under a 2.0 (about 66% wins).

No, a pug team grouping up and getting on coms isn't going to beat a 228 12man. Then again a group of mixed teams of average skill in group queue isn't going to beat a 228 12man. Most 12man teams from almost every unit isn't going to beat a 228 12man. It's a dishonest argument to make. A pug team bringing a good deck, communicating and coordinating and making good choices is a match for probably 80% of the teams/units in FW. Because that's all those units are. Good players, even pugging and using coms, are a match for all but probably 5% or less of units.

Which is why the split queue doesn't work. So if Pat Kell of KCom drops in a pug match in a pug queue he'll have a win/loss pretty close to what he has now, playing with KCom - because the only matches we lose are to a small handful of really good units. However for the same reason that even an average player like me can hit 2.0 w/l in QP the great players will drive constant wins in FW -

because a matchmaker doesn't change the skill distribution of players. It's not going to change who is on what side. It's not going to make anyone better than they are. It's not going to change who does and does not communicate and bring good decks and make good choices. All it will do is try to force social players to be less social, which means they likely will play less. What it will not do is make them worse at the game so that bad players can win more without having to actually do better.

Finally, there's not 500 or 1,000 players in queue at a time in FW. There's no point to a matchmaker. There's rarely 3 matches going at the same time. There's no way to split people up. If there's 12 228 members (or more) dropping on IS side and 12 KCom members dropping on Clan side we're going to end up in the same matches - however we're unlikely to end up in matches against each other because no matchmaker is going to hold people 30 minutes for people to get out of matches.

FFS. Just pug FW maps/modes in QP. Let people play it in QP with QP matchmaker. There's your training area, for as much as they'll learn bad habits. Everyone in all the units you are falsely accusing of predatory behavior learned to play FW by pugging and grouping up. Literally everyone else has done it. Thousands and thousands and thousands of players, many thousands of players, tens of thousands over the history of FW, managed to figure out how to group up, communicate, coordinate and taking decent mechs. At this point anyone taking bad mechs and refusing to coordinate is consciously making the decision to do stupid things in FW. Why the holy **** is there an obsession now to try and dumb the game down where someone can intentionally be stupid and still consistently win matches in a team based PvP game?

[Bud Crue]

Tiewolf, on 04 January 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

This discussion shows everything that is wrong with FW! There are basically 2 factions. The clubbed, the pugs, new players and seasoned players that really like to save FW.
The other faction are the seasoned players that are organized in units and like to change nothing because they love their little farm.
Their arguments:
1. FW is a failure so let's keep everything
like it is (where is the logic?)

No. Very few (any?) of the ideas put forth in the posts above are suggesting that the status quo should be maintained. Rather they are proposing that instead of a pug queue, we turn ALL of CW into a group queue (among other ideas), with pugs forced to make a choice to group up if they want to take advantage of all the free stuff available in the various CW advancement paths, or not to be allowed to play the mode. It is that simple: exclusive group play for the mode that asserts to place a "strong emphasis on team cohesion".

Tiewolf, on 04 January 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

2. We already tried pug queues (yeah with so much limitations that it had to fail)

Yes, and if the population wasn't sufficient then for this to work, for the 3 days (or whatever it was) when they tried it back then, it certainly won't be enough now.

Tiewolf, on 04 January 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

3. Pugs just have to group up and get on coms (sure that's all why they lose against premades with years of FW experience and selected players)

YES! If a pug groups up and gets on coms then that pug ceases to be a pug for all practical purposes! A 10 man with a couple of pugs that they are training, or helping, or merely playing with; when those 2 extra pugs are trying and listening and communicating are WAY more likely to learn something, and get better, and maybe even want to keep playing the mode, than 2 pugs who refuse to listen, refuse to communicate, and who believe their rambo like tendencies are sufficient to get them through a match. Why is it so hard for some of you to even consider that placing a team emphasis, in a team mode, in a game, that relies on 12 v 12 teams, will be more enjoyable for EVERYONE if they played the damn game as a ****ing TEAM!
FFS

Tiewolf, on 04 January 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

4. The population is too low (Assuming that the player base will stay the same is stupid because many players like me will play less QP if there is a place to have fun for casuals in FW!)

Though it may be pathetic and sad at this point, but even PGI calls FP their "end game mode" What games can you list where the end game mode is designed to be casual or a place to just knock about and have fun? Sorry, but what you are suggesting goes against PGI's intention and even the whole advertised premise of FP being a place to "rewrite the history of the Inner sphere". It may be sad and pathetic, but even so, none of the goals of the FP experience -advertised or reality- is indicative of "casual" play.

Tiewolf, on 04 January 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

5. No pug queues because Units will sync drop in pug queue to farm (if that happens pgi plz prevent this with a MM that prevents players with the same unit in one drop or only pit players with the highest KDR or damage against each other so that the farmers only meet farmers)

It isn't a question of sync dropping. Its a question of viability. Take away the team based aspect of a mode based on houses and merc units and you kill the mode. No point in arguing this one. If you honestly think CW would be a better draw if it actively prevented you from dropping with friends and unit mates there is nothing I can say to you to the contrary. You may as well argue that group queue QP should not allow groups. Its absurd and pointless to consider further. Not to mention the fact that your argument also relies on the premise that a MM makes everything work...hows the MM working in QP now?

Tiewolf, on 04 January 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

The real 2 problems are that new players have no save haven to learn FW and that PGI listens only to veteran players. FW experience is to agonizing against the veterans so only few new players will ever stay with this game mode. The veterans no matter what they state in public want to protect their little seal farm. Otherwise Units would finish a game by objectives to get better opponents quicker if it would be true that they don't want to club seals. But that doesn't happen in game...strange isn't it. And these units are the players that pgi relies on for development feedback without questioning there hidden agendas. Just sad.

What Mischief said.

Edit: I had to correct the typos.

Edited by Bud Crue, 04 January 2018 - 03:44 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

TWIAFU, on 04 January 2018 - 04:12 AM, said:

Considering what you actually drop in while playing CW I can now see the motivation behind you wanting to no longer allow Groups in the Group queue while you play solo.

LRM 30 Adders? Really?.

A prime example of where a lot of the complaining comes from...

People bringing unoptimised builds and then as a result, doing poorly. And then jump up and down on the forms about big bad groups beating them.

But then a Wolf loyalist running LRMs, that's just standard.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 04 January 2018 - 03:45 PM.

[sub2000]

justcallme A S H, on 04 January 2018 - 03:45 AM, said:

^ What?

Most units only went IS in the last 7 days? They have hardly been there for months on end. Most just came off 3-4 week stints in Clan space.

of course you can name a AAA team actively playing for Clan now. One team. Please?

54th? I see one player with such tag per game. It's not possible to see games per season in FW, but you guys don't play often, that I can see very good.
BCMC? did they play as a group lately? when?
KCOM plays few games per week completing 12 group. Irrelevant. (EDIT: irrelevant for me and other pugs).

JGx stays IS. They play often.
D5 stays IS. They play often.
228 stays IS. (gosh australian group is even more hard hitting than D5).
Old Evil stays IS whole holiday season (Vickers was clan for a week- an exception)."
MJ12 stays (was most of the season?) IS.

B0? fielding lance. mixing results.
UN? All good players apparently left this unit.
DSx? didn't see them.
TCAF is IS. Play often, as groups, as pugs: active group. I've seen them both doing scouting and invasion.
MS is IS (I've seen them only ones. apparently they play in othe time zone).

Edited by sub2000, 05 January 2018 - 03:16 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

sub2000, on 05 January 2018 - 03:13 AM, said:

of course you can name a AAA team actively playing for Clan now. One team. Please?

Easily. I know where most units are / players have been. I chat to / see them all regularly.

BCMC - Have been playing each night for the most part.
54MR - had a 12man going in the US / Oceanic peak (Fri night US) last week. We will aim to have 2 maybe 3 12mans going this week.
KCom - Not every night but have been dropping
MS - Went IS this week after a full 4-5 week stint in Clan. They were dropping between 2 and 3 12mans almost every night.

JGx / D5 - rarely drop more than 4 anyway atm. Only switched 2 weeks ago IIRC.
228 - They have been IS for a while so not relevant to discussion.
EVIL - Were 50/50 IS and Clan basically the last month. They went IS 6 days ago as a group, before that it was a few weeks of Clans as 7 days ago I was playing with them and I've been Clan for 2 weeks now.
MJ12 - Mostly inactive from what I've seen.
-BO- - Have had a team of 8+ running on their comms most nights. Just cause everyone doesn't have BO tags does not mean it's not a large group on comms. Hell I was in a 12man with them last week.
UN2 - Mostly inactive atm
DSx - I get invites from them most nights, although this week I've not really been dropping FP - just testing some stuff in QP. Same as -BO- though, just cause it's only 2-3 tags does not mean it's not a larger group.
TCAF - Inactive (IS loyalist anyway).
420m - Clan side - have been fielding 6-8mans most times they are on.
ISRC - Cashel has had a group (4-8+) going 2-3 nights a week for the past fortnight
BSMC - Hammer/Po1 have been in 2-4 mans on/off the past fortnight. Sometimes as large as 8-12man, dont need more than 4 of them anyway to shread.

Overall though there hasn't been much FP dropping from either side from what I've seen. Burnout from the event, as usual, is the main reason there.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 05 January 2018 - 03:46 AM.

[TWIAFU]

justcallme A S H, on 04 January 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:

A prime example of where a lot of the complaining comes from...

People bringing unoptimised builds and then as a result, doing poorly. And then jump up and down on the forms about big bad groups beating them.

But then a Wolf loyalist running LRMs, that's just standard.

Best part is to start another thread claiming victim.

They were not even near to 'optimized'! It was a QP deck.

[TKSax]

sub2000, on 05 January 2018 - 03:13 AM, said:

of course you can name a AAA team actively playing for Clan now. One team. Please?

228 stays IS. (gosh australian group is even more hard hitting than D5).

We switch but favor IS. But what is your point teams change sides all the time, they are not switching now because IS suddenly became op, they probably just wanted to play their IS mechs.

But what is your point you have the power to change. Go find a clan unit and ralley them. Clans have won just about every major event PGI has put on, Clans still have the best mechs so I am not sure what you are whinning about right now.