147 replies to this topic

[Ted Wayz]

So much misinformation in this thread.

The tier bar is an XP bar.

Correlations to KDR are false. Your average score does not matter much either. What drives the bar are wins and losses.

Most players quick drop solo. For them the major determinant of wins and losses is matchmaker. Matchmaker has been broken since inception. Long losing streaks no matter how well you play are prevalent.

But once again people are trying to protect their egos saying you have to be good to be tier 1. they also say MWO is a comp game.

Hope that makes them feel good. (Even though it isn't true)

Oh and OP, N=1 is N=1. And not statistically relevant or should be consider more than an observation.

[arcana75]

justcallme A S H, on 03 January 2018 - 05:43 AM, said:

^ and to think if you are in T3 with a avg match score of 253 @ 81st percentile - just HOW BAD is the rest of the community type thing.

And not having a go at you - just saying T3 / 250avg match score puts you 81st overall.

Jay Leon Hart, on 03 January 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

The fact that ~80% of the accounts are flagged as inactive skews the data by a rather large amount. There is no way I'm actually in the top 20% Top 40% maybe

Looking at the Jarl's List, I think being in the 80% or even 90% says less than one might think. I browsed the leaderboard abit, page by page, and noticed that the score trends are abit like income brackets: right at the top, big differences separate one from another, and only start to normalise around the top 3% area. Then things have a normal gradient.

I guess tarogato's graphs speak the truth better than I can:




To me, being inside the mass, says very little about the players in it, other than that we are part of the majority, with 200 being a near perfect middle or average.

[Armored Yokai]

it feels like one because i've been climbing fast the only thing holding me back is trying out mechs and weird builds with bad positioning

[MrMadguy]

El Bandito, on 03 January 2018 - 05:33 PM, said:

That's only 21 matches total. You need to suck more in order to fall down a tier.

I've been sucking since release of Clans. Hundreds of matches...



And even when my W/L was ~ 1, my MS always was ~150 (bad thing - we don't have global avg MS stat)

And according to well known picture, I should have been losing rating in this case:


Only time, when I don't suck - is short periods of events, when MM becomes a little bit better. And during this time my rating rockets back to pre-Tier 2 or, as in this case, even to Tier 2. Do you know, how I managed to get to Tier 2? Lol. I've been playing just a 2-3 matches a day, lol.

24 matches! Just 24 matches! And I'm in Tier 2! This 24 matches outweigh hundreds of loses.

I can go up, but I can't go down - this is exact definition of XP bar, sorry.

And you simply ignore hard evidence - this sounds like a trolling.

Edited by MrMadguy, 03 January 2018 - 10:52 PM.

[MrMadguy]

I guess, that you forget, that PSR - is TWO FACTOR system. In order to have stable rating you have to have both W/L = 1 and MS = 250. Everything, higher than that - is increase of PSR. Lower - decrease. But both affect each other. We don't know exact numbers, but one can assume, that MS = 200 would require W/L around 1.3.

Yeah, I've been having W/L = 1 for a long time, just because my teams carried me. But my avg MS has always been around 150, that is even lower, than 200. With such low match score I should have had W/L much higher than 1 in order to have stable rating, at least 1.5. But it wasn't the case.

Conclusion - I should have been dropping. But system is way too biased towards increasing. "Small drop" - is way too small in comparison to "Moderate rise". Rising and dropping should be balanced. Otherwise this system will always be just an XP bar.

P.S. Don't forget, that MS, we are talking about here - is AVERAGE MS. I.e. you just can't always have, let's say, 200MS - sometimes it's 100, sometimes it's 300. You should take it into account, cuz 300 is weighted as around 3x in comparison with 100. That's, where 200-250 range for stable rating comes from. 200 - is average between 0 and 400.

Edited by MrMadguy, 03 January 2018 - 11:46 PM.

[Evantas]

I'm in tier 3. Haha. Was in tier 5 for 2 years of on-off playing.

You will get stuck in tier 5 for a longer time if you basically throw all ur cadet matches away, like i did by playing a laser jenner most of the cadet matches. With single heatsinks.

But having said that, u do climb eventually.

[El Bandito]

MrMadguy, on 03 January 2018 - 11:35 PM, said:

I guess, that you forget, that PSR - is TWO FACTOR system. In order to have stable rating you have to have both W/L = 1 and MS = 250. Everything, higher than that - is increase of PSR. Lower - decrease. But both affect each other. We don't know exact numbers, but one can assume, that MS = 200 would require W/L around 1.3.

Yeah, I've been having W/L = 1 for a long time, just because my teams carried me. But my avg MS has always been around 150, that is even lower, than 200. With such low match score I should have had W/L much higher than 1 in order to have stable rating, at least 1.5. But it wasn't the case.

Conclusion - I should have been dropping. But system is way too biased towards increasing. "Small drop" - is way too small in comparison to "Moderate rise". Rising and dropping should be balanced. Otherwise this system will always be just an XP bar.

P.S. Don't forget, that MS, we are talking about here - is AVERAGE MS. I.e. you just can't always have, let's say, 200MS - sometimes it's 100, sometimes it's 300. You should take it into account, cuz 300 is weighted as around 3x in comparison with 100. That's, where 200-250 range for stable rating comes from. 200 - is average between 0 and 400.

And yet, there are plenty of people who can't rise in tiers under such a lenient system. Which is why I prefer not to drop with/against them, as something is seriously wrong with their playstyle for them to stay in lower tiers, even after 2 years.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 January 2018 - 11:54 PM.

[MrMadguy]

El Bandito, on 03 January 2018 - 11:53 PM, said:

And yet, there are plenty of people who can't rise in tiers under such a lenient system. Which is why I prefer not to drop with/against them, as something is seriously wrong with their playstyle for them to stay in lower tiers, even after 2 years.

What is wrong with current system - is that your matches have to be extremely bad in order for your rating to stay stable and when you have relatively good matches (at least not bad) - your rating rises, that will eventually bring you to bad matches. This is wrong, because MM's logic should be simple: bad matches - you drop, good (not bad) - you're stable, excellent matches - you rise. Your rating should be stable, when you play at your level of skill, not when you're stomped in every single match. As simple, as that.

Again. There shouldn't be "bad" players in game, that has matchmaker. There is nothing bad in being "bad player", cuz skill - is purely relative thing. One just can't jump over his natural skill. Simple thing - bad players just should play against bad players. We have Tier 5, full of noobs, i.e. place, where one can drop to, if he is bad player. But I can only climb... It's proven fact, that it's almost impossible to drop.

It's ok for other players to be "elitists" and not to understand this, but if PGI just don't understand this simple thing - then they're incompetent game developers. As simple, as that.

Edited by MrMadguy, 04 January 2018 - 12:30 AM.

[Anjian]

Initially I thought the bar was a bug or error in the UI design.

[El Bandito]

MrMadguy, on 04 January 2018 - 12:21 AM, said:

It's ok for other players to be "elitists" and not to understand this, but if PGI just don't understand this simple thing - then they're incompetent game developers. As simple, as that.

We pointed out the flaws of the system all way back in 2015. PGI didn't care then. No sense talking about it now.

[General Solo]

I find PSR simple.

It measures and rewards your ability to do well on a loss.
As its the only time you go down in PSR.

When you stop doing well on loses you stop rising in PSR and have found your level.
Otherwise you rise in PSR all the time.

If you crash on a win, who cares, you still going to go up in PSR.

Mechs with big alphas help with doing well on a loss and sustain or increase your PSR as you don't have to fire long to do decent most losses.

And thus hardly eva go down in PSR
Flip ya overrides

Edit: Being able to recognize a loss is coming and make suitable adjustments is a skill that can help you rise in Tier/PSR faster........and sometimes pull off a win from a loss.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 04 January 2018 - 01:41 AM.

[mouser42]

I'm in tier 7 1/32 derp or something, we have beer and pizza so could care less about the tier 1 thing.

[627]

There are people who play with a joystick and nothing else.

There are people who stubbornly play stock mechs in QP and are entitled that these mechs have to be viable.

There are people who play drunk. Like, always. Not that there's anything wrong with it


So, while you'd eventually crawl up the tiers if you just play long enough, some people will stay right where they are. I don't really like the common potato insult but... yeah.

[kesmai]

I am potato king.
Need no tier.
Discussion is stooopid.

[MrMadguy]

There are many factors here - not skill only. My home computer has cheap mouse, that has tendency to twitching and sticking buttons. But currently I play from my job most of the time, cuz MWO is the only game, that isn't blocked there. And I don't even have discrete video card there. Keyboard is bad there too - keys have bad sensitivity. But this isn't the worst case. Some players can't even load to game within one minute... And people just aren't ready to pay extra money for good PC to be competitive in, OMG, video game.

Edited by MrMadguy, 04 January 2018 - 06:12 AM.

[Dago Red]

627, on 04 January 2018 - 05:45 AM, said:

There are people who play drunk. Like, always. Not that there's anything wrong with it


So, while you'd eventually crawl up the tiers if you just play long enough, some people will stay right where they are. I don't really like the common potato insult but... yeah.

Honestly if you can't improve your tier ranking over time while hammered then I have no idea how you'd have the competence to do it sober either.

[Curccu]

Ted Wayz, on 03 January 2018 - 06:11 PM, said:

But once again people are trying to protect their egos saying you have to be good to be tier 1. they also say MWO is a comp game.

Hope that makes them feel good. (Even though it isn't true)

It doesn't require people to be good to get to T1 that is one of the biggest issues, max level cap is too low and nowdays all kind of mediocre players have reached T1.

and people play comp in MWO so what is that, if it isn't comp gaming?
How do you even define comp game?
Just curious...

[The Basilisk]

Curccu, on 04 January 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

It doesn't require people to be good to get to T1 that is one of the biggest issues, max level cap is too low and nowdays all kind of mediocre players have reached T1.

and people play comp in MWO so what is that, if it isn't comp gaming?
How do you even define comp game?
Just curious...

Comp game .... defines itself by people that search for people that would pose some competition for them.
And also Comp play has long stoped to find place inside of MWO queues, regardless of FP, group or QP queue.

Comp players play in leagues in lobbys where they can fight decent adversaries.

[Bud Crue]

Curccu, on 04 January 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

It doesn't require people to be good to get to T1 that is one of the biggest issues, max level cap is too low and nowdays all kind of mediocre players have reached T1.

Exactly this. In any reasonable player skill division system, someone like me, playing like I do, should NEVER have been able to risen to the highest level of that division. Yet here I am. According to PGI’s tier system I am to be considered as good as EMP, 228 and others of their ilk for purposes of match making, for I have achieved the similar pinnacle of Tier 1!

That’s just stupid.

I am at best a tier 3 player (my 63% rating on the Jarl’s list) but here I am. Again, just, stupid. The current system does not benefit anyone’s enjoyment of the game. Not those that actually are good, as they are forced to play and likely carry me, nor for people like me who are forced to play with folks that they know are probably not happy about it and who will resent my crap skills in their actual high skill match play. But hey! We’re all T1 so its cool, right? NO!!!!

By advancing people like me to higher tier levels merely allows PGI to get the majority of players within 1-2 tiers of each other in a reasonable amount of time so that they can then be assured that their awful MM has pleanty to work without having to open any gates. That’s it.

[Liquid Leopard]

I know players who should be in Tier 1, and I've seen from spectating and from videos that some of them shoot better drunk than I do ever.

I can compare KDR and weapon accuracy stats with these friends, and in spite of their politeness I know my stats suck by comparison.

I've been dumbfounded by matches where I had a terrible score, and the skill change arrow points up.

MrMadguy, on 03 January 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

I can go up, but I can't go down - this is exact definition of XP bar, sorry.

^ THIS

...And right at the time of the Skill Tree patch, I got bumped up to Tier 1.
I'm an average player, at best. The only explanation for me to be in Tier 1 is that I've been playing for 4 years.
My Kill/Death Ratio has been about 1.0, except when it was lower. (I was blown up more often than I blew anyone up, for the first year.)

Yes, it's an XP bar.

Edited by Liquid Leopard, 04 January 2018 - 07:59 AM.