131 replies to this topic

[K O Z A K]

Hmm, although I think all that would prove is who is the better brawling pilot, but to make a test like that relevant in the context of FP I guess you'd be in a brawling Mad2c, we would be using a brawl friendly FP map and I would be followed up with another player in a locust to account for FP tonnage difference, right?

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

Sure a MADIIC will be able to out run and outrange a Cyclops in a 1 V 1, but what if the MadIIC has to push through a narrow choke point with a cyclops waiting in ambush, negating both the speed and range advantage? Then it becomes player skill. Which is why positioning is more important in this game than any tech advantage. I wish you could bird's eye spectate FP matches like private matches. I imagine it would be rather eye opening for many to see how the different units position themselves initially and then to see how they react to contact with the enemy.

[MischiefSC]

Hazeclaw, on 14 January 2018 - 09:09 PM, said:

Hmm, although I think all that would prove is who is the better brawling pilot, but to make a test like that relevant in the context of FP I guess you'd be in a brawling Mad2c, we would be using a brawl friendly FP map and I would be followed up with another player in a locust to account for FP tonnage difference, right?

Okay. However you want to do it. The guy in the locust is a bit strange because you've only got about 5 tons per wave advantage as IS but whatever. I'll win with one ST chewed and some armor lost over most the rest but solid and 9mpls will one-shot a Locust and the MAD IIC is maneuverable enough to unsquirrel one. WIll depend on the locust pilot, really.

MC MKII could work too. 2xLB10X, 2xMPL, 4xSRM6A. Or just the happy old Scorch with 2xLB20X, 4xSRM6. Always good for a giggle.

Why don't you give an example of your unstoppable brawling Clops build and I'll show you, in the math, exactly why it is they get stomped by Clan assaults.

All I run is brawling in FW, almost without exception. Your Cyclops can't cover its CT because of the big dome head. 9 MPLs is going to kill you in 3 cycles. The first burst is going to hit you outside of SRM range. The 64 damage I do a full cycle ahead of your first SRM volley and ability to keep it all pinpoint on your CT no matter what you do means it's a brief fight. Done about 10 seconds after the first shots are fired.

SplatClops is a great push mech. 20 DPS for a short burst (hot as hell) and reasonably (for an assault) narrow profile means you can usually get 3 at a time pointed at the same guy in a push. However it's slow, if I've got the range to do so I can leg you pretty quick (dat ammo crit kill is always good for the lol) and if not it's 3 licks to the center of the lollypop.

In a team though is where Clans really dominate brawling because heatcap. While the SplatClops has a great burst it's hot. I'm going to cool faster and my sustainable firepower is more than 2x yours. That goes across all 12 mechs on both sides. A Clan team with balls pushes in, everyone trades their initial salvos to heatcap and.... Clans mop up because they're shooting again first.

Hence the power of IS heavies. Mixed ballistic/energy and ballistic/missile IS heavies like the RHG, WHR and MAD have great sustainable firepower, are fast enough to get into position and reposition in a brawl and are narrow enough to keep open to focus fire.

I would agree that 1 v 1 isn't fair because it really leans into Clan advantages. What most Clan players really, really don't get is that group v group leans into Clan strengths as well. There's some great pilots in KCom. There's great pilots in every unit. The reality is though that if you're willing to push in and toe to toe with the IS and not puss out in the initial push, even if one of you goes down first, you're going to win on heat cap, bigger per mech alpha and mobility.

[MischiefSC]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 14 January 2018 - 09:30 PM, said:

Sure a MADIIC will be able to out run and outrange a Cyclops in a 1 V 1, but what if the MadIIC has to push through a narrow choke point with a cyclops waiting in ambush, negating both the speed and range advantage? Then it becomes player skill. Which is why positioning is more important in this game than any tech advantage. I wish you could bird's eye spectate FP matches like private matches. I imagine it would be rather eye opening for many to see how the different units position themselves initially and then to see how they react to contact with the enemy.

How about we do it in Steiner Stadium. No way to run away. I wasn't going to kite anyway; the point is to show how a push works. I'll get the first shot as we close and start the fight almost 70 damage ahead. He's going to heacap first and with a splat build spread damage way more. If I go with a splat build I'm still going to get more shots before heatcap, do more each alpha.

It's 14 extra structure - not even armor, just structure on the Clops. I'm either going to out-range it with way better precision and heat management or I'm going to do an extra 20+ pts every time I pull the trigger, and still have better heat management. Possibly better range. Plus due to RNJesus on crits structure buffs are not worth much.

Advantages to the Clops are hitboxes. Same as it is with most the good IS mechs. The armor/structure buffs are, with very few exceptions (dat Urbie!!!!) a minor advantage. Better speed and way, way better cooling is a huge advantage.

[K O Z A K]

I wouldn't take a cyclops to the coliseum either. But in a FP setting when having to clear through the buildings on maps like emerald taiga ASRM40/LFE cyclops and various IS hgauss builds seem to do really well against clan given the 240vs265 tonnage

[MischiefSC]

Hazeclaw, on 14 January 2018 - 10:19 PM, said:

I wouldn't take a cyclops to the coliseum either. But in a FP setting when having to clear through the buildings on maps like emerald taiga ASRM40/LFE cyclops and various IS hgauss builds seem to do really well against clan given the 240vs265 tonnage

Then you're doing it wrong.

Look, here's the magic of winning in Brawling as Clans.

#1 - Lanes. This is a huge one people tend to miss. Most Clan mechs have a narrow profile and good speed - this means that say for example the IS is approaching you through the buildings, you take up a position in the open. IS mechs are wide. Coming through the buildings with you in the open you should have 12 mechs shooting at 4 mechs.

If it's an open area then use your speed to stay on the flanks. IS mechs are, again, wide and slow. Use them to block their teammates. Lanes are about how many of you can shoot at how many of them. Clans have a strong advantage here in assaults. Don't trade, don't hide in cover and poke - make a firing line. IS needs way more space to make a line compared to Clans.

#2 - Overrun. Go past them. Walk right up and past them. Ignore the ones in front. Walk past them, walk through the enemy line and turn around. IS mechs, being fat and wide and clumsy are easy to back-shoot even from the side - so you force them to expose their back to someone.

#3 - Heat cap. Be a Spartan. The guy in front? He's going to die. You soak as much damage/heat as you can and die in a blaze of glory. The moment IS mechs are at heat cap they're ******. Absolutely and completely in a brawl vs Clans, your Clan buddies are likely 50% stronger in *sustained* DPS. While IS is suddenly having to shoot damage in 12-24 pt increments and you are shooting 30-40 pts it's suddenly a slaughter.

Telling you man. Clans can ball up and be in position first and fit a firing line in narrower spaces and then push IS to heatcap. You just have to play like a Spartan and realize the absolute best cover, without question, is a wall of firepower. When you back up and try to poke/trade at mid-range you give IS time to get all its ducks in a row and push in. Hold the line, eat the first 2 salvos and then blow them away.

IS heavies? That's where you're boned. Narrow, better hitboxes, better speed synergy and even if you're winning on wave 1 and 2 suddenly wave 3 hits and you're in 50 tonners vs 65-70 tonners and it's a lot tougher. Then it's Assassins/Bushies vs Myst Lynx and now you're boned.

Clans pretty much have to front load tonnage or run 3xLBKs because that's their best performers. Smart IS teams in 65-75 kph heavies for 3 waves and a great medium (especially the heat sustainable ones) can rob Clans of those advantages.

Playing the poke/trade game vs IS assaults is what makes the IS assaults so strong; you're playing high heat builds. They're closing at about 100m every 4 seconds and never taking fire from 12 of you at once so they can close, overwhelm you with burst damage and you have no heat advantage to speak of. Suddenly you're brawling in a poke build and you're getting rolled. I see that when I play IS.

Save the 74-88pt laservomit HLL builds for QP, Boreal and Polar. Run splat/ballistic/pulse builds, go over 70 and play like a Spartan. Yeah, that first volley sucks - then suddenly you'll find the whole IS team is twisting away, heatcapped and only able to shoot a couple missiles or MGs and you're still able to pump out about 60-75% of your firepower. Walk past them and shoot backs.

Clans dominate brawling. That's not because KCom is all amazing pilots (though they are *cough*) but appropriate application of the math involved.

IS HGauss is strong though - if there's a couple in the mix. That's very true. Just suffers the same issues, save the heat one.

[myhorseisamaz1ng]

just 10 annihilators by 10 unit members defending base from pug team.
there's no more to say.

[MischiefSC]

myhorseisamaz1ng, on 15 January 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

just 10 annihilators by 10 unit members defending base from pug team.
there's no more to say.

10 Kodiaks by 10 unit members doing the same thing?

10 Atlases?

10 Dire Wolves?

Not sure what your point is.

[justcallme A S H]

The point is they brought the wrong mechs or had poor strategy.

Probably both.

[UnKnownPlayer]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

#3 - Heat cap. Be a Spartan. The guy in front? He's going to die. You soak as much damage/heat as you can and die in a blaze of glory. The moment IS mechs are at heat cap they're ******. Absolutely and completely in a brawl vs Clans, your Clan buddies are likely 50% stronger in *sustained* DPS. While IS is suddenly having to shoot damage in 12-24 pt increments and you are shooting 30-40 pts it's suddenly a slaughter.

Telling you man. Clans can ball up and be in position first and fit a firing line in narrower spaces and then push IS to heatcap. You just have to play like a Spartan and realize the absolute best cover, without question, is a wall of firepower. When you back up and try to poke/trade at mid-range you give IS time to get all its ducks in a row and push in. Hold the line, eat the first 2 salvos and then blow them away.

Thanks for saying this from the clan side, I have tried explaining this to opposing clan teams when they are whining about IS being OP brawlers with better heat ever since i took a close look at the maths in the background of heat managements and some of the naive commentary you get back is depressing.

Couple the increased heat dispersal of the clan mechs with lower tonnage, smaller weapons and 2 slot DHS and it's a brawlers heaven even with energy brawl.

[ccrider]

UnKnownPlayer, on 16 January 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

Thanks for saying this from the clan side, I have tried explaining this to opposing clan teams when they are whining about IS being OP brawlers with better heat ever since i took a close look at the maths in the background of heat managements and some of the naive commentary you get back is depressing.

Couple the increased heat dispersal of the clan mechs with lower tonnage, smaller weapons and 2 slot DHS and it's a brawlers heaven even with energy brawl.

no, no, don't listen to mischief; ha is a dirty clamber and thus prone to excessive lies. Clans can't brawl, real IS players fear LRM 80 and ATM 48. Bring those, win and profit.





(Said with no trace of sarcasm. Honest.)

[K O Z A K]

mischief is a sneaky davion infiltrator. Once clan davion, always clan davion, lol