185 replies to this topic

[IllCaesar]

AnarchyBurger, on 09 January 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

OP I somewhat get you because the new skill system is somewhat intimidating. The truth is though it simply tweaks things, its not a must.

The old system was an INSANE grind. Not to mention the cost of having to get 3 of the same mech to flesh out a tree, AND level them all up.

If your not going to like it... Your not going to like it. But trust me, its much quicker and less grindy than the old system. Hell just the fact that you can buy ONE mech to level, makes it worth it enough.

I already said my part but just to reiterate, this is only true to a more heavy chassis in the game. Light mechs always struggled with popularity in part due to the fact that DHS was just as expensive on them. In fact it used to and still does cost more to upgrade a Locust or Commando than to buy one, and thats not even counting engines or weapons. DHS cost should've scaled down for them. Now it costs less to buy and upgrade a Locust or Commando than it does to fill out their skill tree. Its 45,000 C-Bill per skill point no matter the weight class. Functionally the cost of a viable light mech used to be about double of the purchase price, now its about triple or even quadruple. For the cost that it takes to sink into a 20-ton Locust or 25-ton Commando to make it viable, not to mentioning having to learn a new playstyle, a player could buy a Cataphract, not have to learn a new playstyle, and almost certainly perform better in the certain meta even with Single Heat Sinks.

[blood4blood]

4,095,000 cbills for 91 skill points.

6M for radar derp module, 6M for seismic minimum for modules.

It's still cheaper under the skill tree unless you decide to open all the nodes, in which case it costs about the same for 1 mech fully unlocked as for those two must-have modules under the old system.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

IllCaesar, on 09 January 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

I already said my part but just to reiterate, this is only true to a more heavy chassis in the game. Light mechs always struggled with popularity in part due to the fact that DHS was just as expensive on them. In fact it used to and still does cost more to upgrade a Locust or Commando than to buy one, and thats not even counting engines or weapons. DHS cost should've scaled down for them. Now it costs less to buy and upgrade a Locust or Commando than it does to fill out their skill tree. Its 45,000 C-Bill per skill point no matter the weight class. Functionally the cost of a viable light mech used to be about double of the purchase price, now its about triple or even quadruple. For the cost that it takes to sink into a 20-ton Locust or 25-ton Commando to make it viable, not to mentioning having to learn a new playstyle, a player could buy a Cataphract, not have to learn a new playstyle, and almost certainly perform better in the certain meta even with Single Heat Sinks.

Wait wut. Lights pretty much required Seismic sensor and Radar deprivation back in the day which was 12 million cbills to get. 4 million cbills is a third of that price.

[IllCaesar]

Dakota1000, on 09 January 2018 - 02:14 PM, said:

Lights pretty much required Seismic sensor and Radar deprivation back in the day

Not really, no. Seismic generally didn't help lights since light mechs are generally always on the move. Radar Dep did help a lot with the LRMageddon, though, I must admit.

Quote

which was 12 million cbills to get. 4 million cbills is a third of that price.

Its six million for Radar Dep and that was a one-time purchase since you only needed one module. Its 50% more for a one time purchase then versus four million C-bills for every light mech today. If you have more than one light mech you're spending more now than you were back then.

[justcallme A S H]

This is the thing with skill maze... Those who love it, defend it.

For the most part those who don't - left the game. They don't give their point of view, they just quit. Skill Maze was the largest (instant) drop of population in 12 months. It's never recovered from that.

How anyone can sit back and say losing a bunch of players was a good thing I don't know.

[CFC Conky]

IllCaesar, on 09 January 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

Its six million for Radar Dep and that was a one-time purchase since you only needed one module. Its 50% more for a one time purchase then versus four million C-bills for every light mech today. If you have more than one light mech you're spending more now than you were back then.

Yes, but only if you bought the module once and switched it between mechs. Not many players did that, other than at first. Players building invasion drop decks certainly didn’t.

Good hunting
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 09 January 2018 - 02:51 PM.

[Dee Eight]

IllCaesar, on 09 January 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

Its six million for Radar Dep and that was a one-time purchase since you only needed one module. Its 50% more for a one time purchase then versus four million C-bills for every light mech today. If you have more than one light mech you're spending more now than you were back then.

24 million if you play FW... radar dep times four mechs. More if you have multiple mechs ready for deck swaps.

[Dee Eight]

justcallme A S H, on 09 January 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

This is the thing with skill maze... Those who love it, defend it.

For the most part those who don't - left the game. They don't give their point of view, they just quit. Skill Maze was the largest (instant) drop of population in 12 months. It's never recovered from that.

How anyone can sit back and say losing a bunch of players was a good thing I don't know.

And Phase 3 was the biggest drop the previous 12 months. A much more significant drop than skill maze did though.

[The6thMessenger]

Phoolan Devi, on 09 January 2018 - 04:53 AM, said:

It's simple math! New players have way less grind now than before.

Factoring in the CBills to master a mech, i think that it made easier for the heavies but a bit harder to lights. Imagine that an Urbanmech costs around 2m Cbills, buy three and you have 6, buy DHS for each and that's 4.5m, add in XL180 for 2.9m cbills exchangable between Urbies, and then say about 1.5m worth of weapons -- UAC5 + 3 ML, 3ML + LPL, 2x LL + 4x MG -- that's about 15m worth.

Simmilarly, buying King crabs, about 10m each, add in 3m DHS upgrade for the 2 (cause 000B has it). With 1.2m for 4x UAC5 + 240K for 3x ML, that's for 000B, 3x ERLL for 1.2m + 4x LRM10A for 1.2m + 100K Tag + 400k BAP for 0000, 5.8m with XL360 + 2x Gauss for 1.2m + 2x ERPPC for 1.2m for 000. That sums up at around 45 million Cbills.

Compare that to mastering just 1 mech today. Buy an Urbie for 2m, tweak it for 3m worth, but then you need 4m more to master it, that's 9m. But then mastering just a single King Crab, requires 14.44m + 4m, that's 18m.

Mastering an entire chassis was easier back then, but mastering 1 mech is easier now. Likewise mastering lights are easier back then, while assaults are hard to master due to all of the CBills needed to grind.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The6thMessenger, on 09 January 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

Factoring in the CBills to master a mech, i think that it made easier for the heavies but a bit harder to lights. Imagine that an Urbanmech costs around 2m Cbills, buy three and you have 6, buy DHS for each and that's 4.5m, add in XL180 for 2.9m cbills exchangable between Urbies, and then say about 1.5m worth of weapons -- UAC5 + 3 ML, 3ML + LPL, 2x LL + 4x MG -- that's about 15m worth.

Simmilarly, buying King crabs, about 10m each, add in 3m DHS upgrade for the 2 (cause 000B has it). With 1.2m for 4x UAC5 + 240K for 3x ML, that's for 000B, 3x ERLL for 1.2m + 4x LRM10A for 1.2m + 100K Tag + 400k BAP for 0000, 5.8m with XL360 + 2x Gauss for 1.2m + 2x ERPPC for 1.2m for 000. That sums up at around 45 million Cbills.

Compare that to mastering just 1 mech today. Buy an Urbie for 2m, tweak it for 3m worth, but then you need 4m more to master it, that's 9m. But then mastering just a single King Crab, requires 14.44m + 4m, that's 18m.

Mastering an entire chassis was easier back then, but mastering 1 mech is easier now. Likewise mastering lights are easier back then, while assaults are hard to master due to all of the CBills needed to grind.

Reminder that mastering a mech back then was only half of what the current skill tree does, the majority of the grind came from modules.

Dee Eight, on 09 January 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

24 million if you play FW... radar dep times four mechs. More if you have multiple mechs ready for deck swaps.

I have 10 mechs that I keep loaded up for FW, 2 scouts, a long range and a mid range deck. For just radar and seismic under the old system that would be 120 million cbills. If we add in 4 million worth of weapon modules to each then that's 160 million cbills.

That is enough for me to go through and master 40 mechs under the new system instead of 10. Before skill tree I couldn't even afford to get my mechs fully moduled up for FW.

[The6thMessenger]

Dakota1000, on 09 January 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

Reminder that mastering a mech back then was only half of what the current skill tree does, the majority of the grind came from modules.

Eh true. But still it's far easier to master individual mechs right now.

[metallio]

CFC Conky, on 09 January 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

Yes, but only if you bought the module once and switched it between mechs. Not many players did that, other than at first. Players building invasion drop decks certainly didn’t.

Good hunting
CFC Conky

Players building invasion drop decks were a miniscule part of the population from the very beginning and it's even less now. Almost everyone swapped modules. I'm sure someone exists that didn't ever swap by the time the skill tree hit, but I've never met them.

[H I A S]

El Bandito, on 08 January 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

I prefer this skill tree over the old 3 for 1 system.

You also prefer that PUGs should stay away from CW while queuedodging and farming them, that doesnt make your opinion right.

Edited by H I A S, 09 January 2018 - 03:44 PM.

[Xmith]

Krysic, on 08 January 2018 - 11:29 PM, said:

I took time off the game, somewhere around a year, year and a half.

I come back to this new skill system and have no idea how anyone thinks it's less than a blatant increase to the grind wall. Immediately all of the animosity I developed comes rushing back after less than an hour and only one match.

Other games make money entirely on cosmetics and expansions. This game is good but it's not getting better, just the same thing stretched more and more thin.

I refused to uninstall in the constant hope that MWO would evolve into something more than a barely scratched out simulator but it seems my hopes were unfounded.

Uninstalling now.

We had a good few years, I spent a couple of hundred on you.
Would have loved to make it a few thousand but...yeah. Anyway. Bye.

Be honest with yourself. MWO is not for you. It takes a certain amount of grit to play MWO these days. Some got it, most don't.

Edited by Xmith, 09 January 2018 - 03:52 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

H I A S, on 09 January 2018 - 03:42 PM, said:

You also prefer that PUGs should stay away from CW while queuedodging and farming them, that doesnt make your opinion right.

He's just giving his opinion, no reason to go after him.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

H I A S, on 09 January 2018 - 03:42 PM, said:

You also prefer that PUGs should stay away from CW while queuedodging and farming them, that doesnt make your opinion right.

Though the math showing that the current skill tree's grind is much lower than the old system's does.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

blood4blood, on 09 January 2018 - 01:55 PM, said:

(HOLY SHZZZZ I wrote something positive about MWO! I feel tainted in my /bittervet-ness.)

Just go drop for a few matches. You'll come back salty as ever!

[Agent 0range]

OMG the old system, where you spent ages looking for modules wondering where did i leave it and the best mechs boated all the same weapons to get the most from modules, it was terrible and i stopped buying mechs and just started buying modules so i didn't have to swap them around.

[justcallme A S H]

Dee Eight, on 09 January 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

And Phase 3 was the biggest drop the previous 12 months. A much more significant drop than skill maze did though.

And that somehow makes it OK? To continually do things that make your player base decline?

I'd argue 10% of 34,000 players is as much of problem 15% of 50,000 as you feel the 3,400 a lot harder*
*figures not accurate, just illustration.

Further to that - as the population dwindles the longer it takes to find games. The longer it takes the more frustrated people get. The more frustrated the more quit or play other games. I know I go and play other games mid-week now as wait times as the worst they have ever been.

I haven't done the numbers but I would be unsurprised to find the avg games played now vs 12/18 months ago has dropped simply because of the longer search times due to population drop off. People are simply logging off. This further compounds the problem.

This is the big picture stuff many fail to see/understand unfortunately. It's not always what is good for you, but what is good for the overall. The overall being much more important. Hence skill maze (like it or love it) was bad for MWO.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 09 January 2018 - 05:30 PM.

[UnofficialOperator]

Just took 1 old tier 5 potato to rile you guys up eh?

Funny thing is he came, took 1 dump on the forums and left and you guys still at it.