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What Range Do Clan Er Ppc's Do Splash Damage At?


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#41 Mystere

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:10 PM

View PostBreakinStuff, on 07 March 2018 - 01:28 PM, said:

So you think it is perfectly reasonable for PGI to obsolete the entire IS line existing Mechs with no recourse but "Should have bought Clan the new mechs" when the original premise of clan mechs was they couldn't focus fire because "Clan Honor" and had to stay within the weapon envelope of their opponents as much as they were aware of it?


FTFY.

As for PPCs (and weapons in general), why can't PGI -- and much of the damned player base for that matter -- go beyond mere damage? Why not have effects such as HUD disruption, heat spikes, loss of targeting, etc.?

There is just so much one-dimensional thinking going on, and for a loooooooooooooooooooooong while now. <shrugs>

#42 Y E O N N E

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:14 PM

View PostGrus, on 07 March 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:


BTW question. if i only hit the arm does that mean that the side torso only gets 2.5 damage and the other 2.5 just dosnt apply?


Yes. If you hit a component that doesn't have a component on either side, then you lose 2.5 damage.

Quote

So my reasoning that i despise the splash damage is the same reason i dont like LRM's its not direct damage done to the spot im aiming at. Thus, wasted heat and wasted damage.


Yes and no.

The lack of splash means you have to be very precise. In the case of the HPPC, it has an inferior velocity and is harder to be precise with. A miss, then, means you have set your DPS back by 5 seconds. With a miss using the cERPPC, you only set your DPS back by 3.75 seconds. In addition, that splash is enough to kill targets nearing death even on a miss. No such luxury with HPPC. The longer a match drags on, the more advantaged you are with cERPPC. This is good for the cERPPC because, By their hot and slow nature, all PPCs are about playing the long game.

Quote

so as of right now clan has no hppc, that would enable us to do a fair comparison but right now we are comparing apples to mango's. now if we want to do a a stop gap and mess around with clan erppc then fine. but cERPPC shouldn't try to do the same thing as HPPC


Overall, the entire PPC family is in a really bad place. I was against that cooldown nerf to the cERPPC and still am, but I also know that the cERPPC remains a more compelling gun than any of the IS PPCs because of the min-range and lower dissipation on the IS side. I'm not against buffing cERPPC, but 10 heat for 2.5+10+2.5 damage paired with 20-30 DHS versus 13.5 (ERPPC) or 14.5 (HPPC) paired with between 19 and 21 DHS is just broken. The rework needs to be more extensive.

#43 Mystere

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:14 PM

View PostJay Leon Hart, on 07 March 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:

Yep, that's why no weapon in MWO was ever allowed to deal more than 10 pinpoint damage.


I think you missed this bit:

View PostJess Hazen, on 07 March 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

... in the hands of a clan pilot ..

Posted Image

#44 Grus

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:26 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 07 March 2018 - 05:14 PM, said:


Yes. If you hit a component that doesn't have a component on either side, then you lose 2.5 damage.



Yes and no.

The lack of splash means you have to be very precise. In the case of the HPPC, it has an inferior velocity and is harder to be precise with. A miss, then, means you have set your DPS back by 5 seconds. With a miss using the cERPPC, you only set your DPS back by 3.75 seconds. In addition, that splash is enough to kill targets nearing death even on a miss. No such luxury with HPPC. The longer a match drags on, the more advantaged you are with cERPPC. This is good for the cERPPC because, By their hot and slow nature, all PPCs are about playing the long game.



Overall, the entire PPC family is in a really bad place. I was against that cooldown nerf to the cERPPC and still am, but I also know that the cERPPC remains a more compelling gun than any of the IS PPCs because of the min-range and lower dissipation on the IS side. I'm not against buffing cERPPC, but 10 heat for 2.5+10+2.5 damage paired with 20-30 DHS versus 13.5 (ERPPC) or 14.5 (HPPC) paired with between 19 and 21 DHS is just broken. The rework needs to be more extensive.


"A miss, then, means you have set your DPS back by 5 seconds. With a miss using the cERPPC, you only set your DPS back by 3.75 seconds" i dont understand the 3.75 if the CD for cERPPC is 5 sec.

"HPPC, it has an inferior velocity and is harder to be precise with." Thats debatable, i mean it is still moving really quickly and its not intended to be used at long ranges.so the mid range/close range its one hell of a whack. (Brawl being sub 100m)

"I'm not against buffing cERPPC, but 10 heat for 2.5+10+2.5 damage paired with 20-30 DHS versus 13.5 (ERPPC) or 14.5 (HPPC) paired with between 19 and 21 DHS is just broken." ok so what i was asking was to remove the splash form the cerpps there by reducing its overall damage by 5 and in line reducing the heat to 10 from 14.5 to compensate for the lower "overall" damage.

#45 Trenchbird

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:27 PM

Oof. I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread-Any thread where Clan Crocodile Tears comes out with a batchall reeks of Salt and Vinegar Lays.

#46 Y E O N N E

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:50 PM

View PostGrus, on 07 March 2018 - 05:26 PM, said:


"A miss, then, means you have set your DPS back by 5 seconds. With a miss using the cERPPC, you only set your DPS back by 3.75 seconds" i dont understand the 3.75 if the CD for cERPPC is 5 sec.


If I want to hit CT with HPPC, and I hit the side instead, I am now down by one whole cycle's worth of damage, which is 5 seconds.

If I do the same with the cERPPC, I still deal 2.5 to the CT, so I'm not down by a whole cycle in terms of damage. I am instead only down by three quarters of a cycle, which is 3.75 seconds.

Quote

"HPPC, it has an inferior velocity and is harder to be precise with." Thats debatable, i mean it is still moving really quickly and its not intended to be used at long ranges.so the mid range/close range its one hell of a whack. (Brawl being sub 100m)


It's 1200 m/s vs. 1400 m/s. Even at 500 meters, the effects of 200 m/s are tangible. Try it on a Blackjack, then go back to a 'Mech with no quirks. It could be worse, but it's not great.

Quote

"I'm not against buffing cERPPC, but 10 heat for 2.5+10+2.5 damage paired with 20-30 DHS versus 13.5 (ERPPC) or 14.5 (HPPC) paired with between 19 and 21 DHS is just broken." ok so what i was asking was to remove the splash form the cerpps there by reducing its overall damage by 5 and in line reducing the heat to 10 from 14.5 to compensate for the lower "overall" damage.


But then what do we do with the is ERPPC? It's still dealing 13.5 heat for 10 damage, and even +500 m/s is not worth that much extra heat. To add, you aren't going to run isERPPC with more than 20 DHS and that's just two on big 'Mechs, while the cERPPC is going to run in quartets with 30 DHS.

Gotta keep all that in mind when you start thinking about how to make cERPPC feel good again.

#47 BreakinStuff

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 06:27 PM

View PostMystere, on 07 March 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:


FTFY.


No you didn't.

The firing rules in tabletop kept the Battletech tabletop from turning into an auto-win for the clans superior tech.

Without that mitigation there is NO UNIVERSE in which keeping the clan tech advantage that far forward is fair in a game where you can't have 2 IS mechs per clan mech or something.

You didn't fix anything.

Since PGI can't reasonably say "Clan mechs can no longer fire on a target someone else has fired upon" that means the clans cannot have their tech be clearly superior without mitigating factors in an FPS.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is either trolling, or you guessed it, trolling.

Because I'm not willing to accuse them of wanting an auto-win-butan yet.

#48 Yosharian

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 08:22 PM

C-ERPPC's splash damage is definitely pure ****, agreed there

#49 Mystere

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 08:30 PM

View PostBreakinStuff, on 07 March 2018 - 06:27 PM, said:


No you didn't.

The firing rules in tabletop kept the Battletech tabletop from turning into an auto-win for the clans superior tech.

Without that mitigation there is NO UNIVERSE in which keeping the clan tech advantage that far forward is fair in a game where you can't have 2 IS mechs per clan mech or something.

You didn't fix anything.

Since PGI can't reasonably say "Clan mechs can no longer fire on a target someone else has fired upon" that means the clans cannot have their tech be clearly superior without mitigating factors in an FPS.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is either trolling, or you guessed it, trolling.

Because I'm not willing to accuse them of wanting an auto-win-butan yet.


You missed the point, the joke.

#50 Asym

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 08:30 PM

View PostMystere, on 07 March 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:


FTFY.

As for PPCs (and weapons in general), why can't PGI -- and much of the damned player base for that matter -- go beyond mere damage? Why not have effects such as HUD disruption, heat spikes, loss of targeting, etc.?

There is just so much one-dimensional thinking going on, and for a loooooooooooooooooooooong while now. <shrugs>

No kidding ! Really, that has been the whole point since May of last year !!!! More than 2 dimensions isn't an arena and arcade FPS format....

Anyway, PPC's seem to miss more that hit and when they seem to hit, they actually aren't......that's how bad the in-game geometry has gotten......

#51 Lykaon

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 08:56 PM

View PostGrus, on 07 March 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:


you forgot to mention IS in this case does more damage per heat. contrast clan does has more heat than damage.



No I did not. Both weapons are at 14.5 heat per shot and both weapons have a damage capacity of 15.

I listed each weapon's specific stats including it's heat and damage profiles. Read my post again an you will see I listed heat and damage. I did not list cooldown because both a H-PPC and C-ERPPC are at 5 seconds so quantifiably equal.


Now it is possible to strike a target on an extremity without two adjacent body segments to "splash" and in this case the C-ERPPC does 10+2.5 splash or a total of 12.5 damage.But a clan ER-PPC does in fact do (or has the capacity to do) 15 damage as does an I.S. H-PPC.

My point was the H-PPC "pays" for this pinpoint damage with higher weight,more crit cost,lower velocity,lower optimal range and a 90m min. range. And that is not a bias as there is a price paid and it's probably more than adiquate and perhaps a bit to costly.

Someone making a claim that PGI is biased towards I.S. based on comparing a H-PPC and a C-ERPPC should have maybe compared some stats first. Because it's pretty clear there is a "cost" to the H-PPC's 15 pinpoint damage that is probably more than adiquate to merit the difference in performance.


Seriously weapons are NOT where you want to try to push a point of there being an Inner Sphere Bias. I can list plenty of examples of quantifiable clan "bias"

Gauss rifles, clan versions are identical in performance just lighter and smaller
LBx class ACs clan versions are lighter and smaller yet identical in performance
Machinegun class weapons literally half the weight for the same performance
Flamers also literally half the weight for the same weapon

The above examples have no differences in performances just the clan versions are lighter or smaller or both for "reasons"

Now there are differences in say...the half weight clan SRM and LRM launchers but, honestly the half tonnage more than compensates for the ripple fire of clan launchers. Clan streaks have longer cooldowns but are significantly lighter etc. All of these weapons are still a better "buy" than I.S. counterparts and by no small margin.


Let's be honest here if mixed tech was allowed it would largely be clan equipment on I.S quirked chassis not clan mechs taking H-PPC or I.S. missiles. About the only reason for utilizing clan chassis if quirks are retained in a mixed tech scenario is the absurd level of hardpoints available to many clan omnimechs.

Edited by Lykaon, 07 March 2018 - 09:11 PM.


#52 Dago Red

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 10:26 PM

View PostBreakinStuff, on 07 March 2018 - 06:27 PM, said:



Since PGI can't reasonably say &quot;Clan mechs can no longer fire on a target someone else has fired upon&quot; that means the clans cannot have their tech be clearly superior without mitigating factors in an FPS.
.


I mean they could remove target lock sharing from clan mechs to simulate their cultural baggage towards teamwork.

not necessarily a balance change I actually want to see but the wailing and gnashing of teeth would be amazing to behold.

#53 Mystere

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 10:43 PM

View PostDago Red, on 07 March 2018 - 10:26 PM, said:

I mean they could remove target lock sharing from clan mechs to simulate their cultural baggage towards teamwork.

not necessarily a balance change I actually want to see but the wailing and gnashing of teeth would be amazing to behold.


It was actually one of the suggestions given long ago to differentiate Clans from the iS.

But, no, only perfect 1:1 symmetrical balance at the Mech, weapon, equipment, and drop levels will work in an IP well known for it's inherent asymmetry. Posted Image

Edited by Mystere, 07 March 2018 - 10:43 PM.


#54 visionGT4

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 12:34 AM

View PostMystere, on 07 March 2018 - 10:43 PM, said:


It was actually one of the suggestions given long ago to differentiate Clans from the iS.

But, no, only perfect 1:1 symmetrical balance at the Mech, weapon, equipment, and drop levels will work in an IP well known for it's inherent asymmetry. Posted Image



I don't see any of the rational playerbase asking for perfect 1:1 balance. All people want is more viable chassis and weapons to choose from at all levels of game play.

Where as the less the rational playerbase only seem to be interested in easy mode.

Edited by visionGT4, 08 March 2018 - 12:44 AM.


#55 drifter bob

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 01:01 AM

View PostBombast, on 07 March 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:


Can we talk about how god damn huge the Javelin is?



#56 Jay Leon Hart

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 01:44 AM

View PostMystere, on 07 March 2018 - 10:43 PM, said:

an IP well known for it's inherent asymmetry. Posted Image

Would that really be inherent to the IP, or just the Clan Invasion era, which came and went both in TT and MWO?

Don't answer, it was rhetorical Posted Image

#57 Mystere

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 05:54 AM

View PostvisionGT4, on 08 March 2018 - 12:34 AM, said:

I don't see any of the rational playerbase asking for perfect 1:1 balance. All people want is more viable chassis and weapons to choose from at all levels of game play.

Where as the less the rational playerbase only seem to be interested in easy mode.


Considering what I have seen for the last 5 years or so, the so-called "rationality" of the player base is highly in doubt. Posted Image


View PostJay Leon Hart, on 08 March 2018 - 01:44 AM, said:

Would that really be inherent to the IP, or just the Clan Invasion era, which came and went both in TT and MWO?

Don't answer, it was rhetorical Posted Image


Rhetorical or not, you know exactly what I am referring to. Posted Image

Edited by Mystere, 08 March 2018 - 09:13 AM.


#58 Dogstar

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 08:52 AM

View PostYosharian, on 06 March 2018 - 10:55 PM, said:


Posted Image


Clan Crocodile Tears is ALWAYS SERIOUS!!!!

#59 Jess Hazen

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 10:35 AM

View PostDogstar, on 08 March 2018 - 08:52 AM, said:


Clan Crocodile Tears is ALWAYS SERIOUS!!!!


wasn't crying at all, nice reversal though.





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