281 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

KingCobra, on 16 January 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

And your right new players pugs/casuals should not be in the same FP as organized skilled teams they should have there own ques to play in that's the point of this thread.And you know as well as I do and many others the reason they even come into the FP queue is
#1 mechbays and faction rewards
#2 board-um with QP

And the lords of MWO could have fixed this issue long ago before we lost so many valuable players to this game.

If you want faction rewards and mech bays you get them in special events, which you can play in QP. If you want more of them you get them by playing in FW - which gets those rewards because the challenge is higher than QP.

Splitting queues wouldn't change how FW works. There's not some magical thing that happens in splitting queues. It doesn't make bad builds and bad choices win more often. It doesn't change the skill distribution.

If I want a big cash payout from MWOWC, I need to learn to play at a comp level and win against comp teams. If you want to win the LP rewards and bigger payouts of FW you need to learn to play at the incredibly lower, only slightly above QP level of FW and win against FW teams.

This isn't hard. It's not unfair. It's not unreasonable. If you want bigger payouts you learn to play better. This is a team game.

Which is what you guys keep dodging. That's a lot of why nobody here is taking you guys seriously. You are absolutely avoiding the blatant reality of the game. You're on a team of 12 vs a team of 12. If someone isn't using teamwork than they suck at this game. They are playing it badly. They are actively choosing to ignore a fundamental part of what wins matches in this game, they are actively trying to fail.

That's not a game design issue that's players being stupid. You can't balance around stupid because anyone who isn't stupid is going to beat the stupid people consistently. That's what happens in FW, and QP for that matter. If you had respawns in QP it would play out stomps with spawn camping just like FW does. Just as often. And that's with mixed tech and a matchmaker.

[KingCobra]

MischiefSC, on 16 January 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

If you want faction rewards and mech bays you get them in special events, which you can play in QP. If you want more of them you get them by playing in FW - which gets those rewards because the challenge is higher than QP.

Splitting queues wouldn't change how FW works. There's not some magical thing that happens in splitting queues. It doesn't make bad builds and bad choices win more often. It doesn't change the skill distribution.

If I want a big cash payout from MWOWC, I need to learn to play at a comp level and win against comp teams. If you want to win the LP rewards and bigger payouts of FW you need to learn to play at the incredibly lower, only slightly above QP level of FW and win against FW teams.

This isn't hard. It's not unfair. It's not unreasonable. If you want bigger payouts you learn to play better. This is a team game.

Which is what you guys keep dodging. That's a lot of why nobody here is taking you guys seriously. You are absolutely avoiding the blatant reality of the game. You're on a team of 12 vs a team of 12. If someone isn't using teamwork than they suck at this game. They are playing it badly. They are actively choosing to ignore a fundamental part of what wins matches in this game, they are actively trying to fail.

That's not a game design issue that's players being stupid. You can't balance around stupid because anyone who isn't stupid is going to beat the stupid people consistently. That's what happens in FW, and QP for that matter. If you had respawns in QP it would play out stomps with spawn camping just like FW does. Just as often. And that's with mixed tech and a matchmaker.

All I have to say is WOW everyone understands what you are saying but in reality it just does not work that way with this IP or MWO what you are trying to portray has been one of the downfalls of this game thinking just because you have 12 in a group no mater skill level or whatever one should dominate the other or =GET GUD sorry but in real games this has never worked and has been the downfall of many even more popular games than MWO.

When you as a game designer does not respect there game populace and does not make it fun and exciting in a more casual way until said player can gain skills and experience to play at high competitive levels the game will suffer over a long period of time until it has so low of a populace because of seal clubbing ETC its servers get taken down,

Many have expressed this concern for the game but many just want to ride the game out the way it is until its death . The lords of MWO will not respond will not fix the game or FP instead relying on new players from some mythical island to support a new Solaris mode no one asked for from whats left of the community?

Or is this a last attempt by the lords of MWO to please that 10% cream of the crop organized players to spend more to keep the servers going? Who knows everything after Closed beta has been with no respect or regard to its players base so I personally don't expect any miracles now from the lords of MWO.

But dont get me wrong they have done some good things as in mech design and maps but it takes alot more that that to keep a game community happy and paying into a game.

Edited by KingCobra, 16 January 2018 - 12:51 PM.

[Direwoof]

MischiefSC, on 10 January 2018 - 10:32 PM, said:

Put the FW content in QP so people can play it with a matchmaker. You don't get to earn LP and the higher cbill rewards of FW by playing QP, which is all a QP queue for FW would be. The reason it's got the higher payouts is that you are, indeed, playing in a mixed environment. You know, faction vs faction.

Just remove pugging from FW all together and require grouping up.

ehh idk aboat that. Me and alot o other people don't have any friends but enjoy playing FP.

[poopenshire]

[mod]

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[/mod]

Edited by poopenshire, 16 January 2018 - 01:44 PM.

[KingCobra]

poopenshire, on 16 January 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

[mod]

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[/mod]

thanks

[KingCobra]

Direwoof, on 16 January 2018 - 12:49 PM, said:

ehh idk aboat that. Me and alot o other people don't have any friends but enjoy playing FP.

So if you have the time to reply back to my questions thanks

#1 So you enjoy playing FP why?

#2 Do you feel that games played 12 solo/pugs VS 12 solo/pugs games are better than those play against 12 man organized teams?

# 3 do you play FP for the faction rewards or just for fun?

#4 do you play FP because your board of QP?

#5 Do you think if Maybe if the lords of MWO would listen to the other 90% of there community MWO and FP could be fixed?

[Stealthrider]

KingCobra, on 16 January 2018 - 01:56 PM, said:

So if you have the time to reply back to my questions thanks

#1 So you enjoy playing FP why?

#2 Do you feel that games played 12 solo/pugs VS 12 solo/pugs games are better than those play against 12 man organized teams?

# 3 do you play FP for the faction rewards or just for fun?

#4 do you play FP because your board of QP?

#5 Do you think if Maybe if the lords of MWO would listen to the other 90% of there community MWO and FP could be fixed?

Figure I can answer these for myself at least.

1) Yes. Reasons being I like the drop deck system and being able to bring mechs appropriate for the map, the rewards are better even for a poor performance and even pug drops usually coordinate better than typical QP games.

2) In my experience pugs v pugs is usually more even than pugs v premades, though there are certainly exceptions to both. As to which is more fun, pugs v premades is usually more fun for me but I can see why it isn't for others. Also depends on which premade it is, as some are less sportsmanlike than others, and how many of the pugs in my drop are willing to listen to calls even if they're bad calls. As they say, a group following a bad plan is always better than a bunch of people following individual good plans.

3) Bit of both. I don't care much for loyalty/merc points and have no interest in the map as I'm not in a FP-dedicated unit, but the Cbill rewards make the mode feel a lot more rewarding than QP. FP is also more fun, though. Most of the time.

4) Not so much bored of QP as wanting something different. QP is great for casual, pick up and go games and trying wacky builds. FP is better for a more involved experience.

5) Honestly, I don't think FP as a game mode needs to be "fixed." I think it's solid as-is outside of the fact that it has a player acquisition and retention problem, which I attribute to the poor new player experience. Sure, improvements can be made, but the mode as a whole I feel is in a good place mechanically.

[Throe]

[deleted by user]

Edited by Throe, 08 November 2018 - 05:52 PM.

[Bud Crue]

KingCobra, on 16 January 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

All I have to say is WOW everyone understands what you are saying but in reality it just does not work that way with this IP or MWO what you are trying to portray has been one of the downfalls of this game thinking just because you have 12 in a group no mater skill level or whatever one should dominate the other or =GET GUD sorry but in real games this has never worked and has been the downfall of many even more popular games than MWO.

When you as a game designer does not respect there game populace and does not make it fun and exciting in a more casual way until said player can gain skills and experience to play at high competitive levels the game will suffer over a long period of time until it has so low of a populace because of seal clubbing ETC its servers get taken down,

Many have expressed this concern for the game but many just want to ride the game out the way it is until its death . The lords of MWO will not respond will not fix the game or FP instead relying on new players from some mythical island to support a new Solaris mode no one asked for from whats left of the community?

Or is this a last attempt by the lords of MWO to please that 10% cream of the crop organized players to spend more to keep the servers going? Who knows everything after Closed beta has been with no respect or regard to its players base so I personally don't expect any miracles now from the lords of MWO.

But dont get me wrong they have done some good things as in mech design and maps but it takes alot more that that to keep a game community happy and paying into a game.

Surely you are correct here, I know nothing of other online games so I trust you as to what "never works".
Provided you accept tha PGI is calling the shots here, not the pugs or the seal clubbers,but PGI.
It has been made clear by them: they are not interested in changing the mode to be more casual friendly.
Do not make the mistake of thinking your opinion or mine is relevant here. The mode is as they want it:
Emphasizing team play is what they say it should be, and if folks don't like it, then they make a choice
Realize that in order to be successful you need to be a very good soloist or join a unit.

My opinion or yours or Devinity's is wholly irrelevant to that reality. PGI has made the mode what it is.
And their actions have reduced to population to what it is and made it untenable to split the queue further.
No reason to debate this further. A solo/team queue split kills the mode. PGI has driven most away from it.

Edited by Bud Crue, 16 January 2018 - 03:16 PM.

[r4zen]

FP and it's players don't keep the lights on at PGI. Hence the deprecation of the mode and migration of dev resources elsewhere. While FP may have, upon launch and 1 & 2, been the future of MWO, that is no longer the case.

At least in Solaris, OP gets their split queue wish granted

QUESTION FOR FP SPLIT QUEUE PROPONENTS: Do you think having a higher barrier to entry for FP (a hard gate, i.e. 8 owned and mastered mechs and/or 200 completed QP matches vs. just the onetime warning popup) would improve the issue you're having with premade vs. pug?

[MischiefSC]

KingCobra, on 16 January 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

All I have to say is WOW everyone understands what you are saying but in reality it just does not work that way with this IP or MWO what you are trying to portray has been one of the downfalls of this game thinking just because you have 12 in a group no mater skill level or whatever one should dominate the other or =GET GUD sorry but in real games this has never worked and has been the downfall of many even more popular games than MWO.

When you as a game designer does not respect there game populace and does not make it fun and exciting in a more casual way until said player can gain skills and experience to play at high competitive levels the game will suffer over a long period of time until it has so low of a populace because of seal clubbing ETC its servers get taken down,

Many have expressed this concern for the game but many just want to ride the game out the way it is until its death . The lords of MWO will not respond will not fix the game or FP instead relying on new players from some mythical island to support a new Solaris mode no one asked for from whats left of the community?

Or is this a last attempt by the lords of MWO to please that 10% cream of the crop organized players to spend more to keep the servers going? Who knows everything after Closed beta has been with no respect or regard to its players base so I personally don't expect any miracles now from the lords of MWO.

But dont get me wrong they have done some good things as in mech design and maps but it takes alot more that that to keep a game community happy and paying into a game.

Except that it worked great in MWO for the first 18 months until it became clear PGI wasn't going to actually deliver on the rest of the content so units left.

FW was full of units. They didn't quit playing because other people were also playing in teams.

Also, you keep missing the '12 v 12' thing. You keep ignoring it. I mean I get why, it is a big part of why the whole 'split the queues' thing is a 100% guaranteed failure.

Removing pugging from FW, put the content in QP with a matchmaker.

There's a lot of games for casual FPS play. CoD being a very popular one. Overwatch is another. See how they're all drop in/drop out? They also don't really have any sort of economy or progression to speak of outside of the players personal grind. They also have very little emphasis or reward for teamwork outside of competitive play.

None of that is MWO. You want MWO to be an arena shooter with 24 player deathmatch, drop in/drop out with fixed mechs everyone has access to and a huge player base, great there's your casual game.

However with a small player base you've already functionally eliminated isolation of players by skill. With an economy for progression in a strictly team based PvP environment you've also ensured that playing casually will get you farmed.

Nobody is going to QP and saying 'GIT GUD SCRUB'. They're saying FW was always designed as a more challenging environment - hence the better rewards.

You're trying to say that there should be no challenging environments with better rewards when that is, in fact, a fundamental part of good game design. The problem is that FW is missing the depth that was promised to retain the people who play there, not that it's not casual enough. It was never supposed to be casual. If we wanted casual we'd be in QP.

Edited by MischiefSC, 16 January 2018 - 06:07 PM.

[KingCobra]

MischiefSC, on 16 January 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

Except that it worked great in MWO for the first 18 months until it became clear PGI wasn't going to actually deliver on the rest of the content so units left.

FW was full of units. They didn't quit playing because other people were also playing in teams.

Also, you keep missing the '12 v 12' thing. You keep ignoring it. I mean I get why, it is a big part of why the whole 'split the queues' thing is a 100% guaranteed failure.

Removing pugging from FW, put the content in QP with a matchmaker.

There's a lot of games for casual FPS play. CoD being a very popular one. Overwatch is another. See how they're all drop in/drop out? They also don't really have any sort of economy or progression to speak of outside of the players personal grind. They also have very little emphasis or reward for teamwork outside of competitive play.

None of that is MWO. You want MWO to be an arena shooter with 24 player deathmatch, drop in/drop out with fixed mechs everyone has access to and a huge player base, great there's your casual game.

However with a small player base you've already functionally eliminated isolation of players by skill. With an economy for progression in a strictly team based PvP environment you've also ensured that playing casually will get you farmed.

Nobody is going to QP and saying 'GIT GUD SCRUB'. They're saying FW was always designed as a more challenging environment - hence the better rewards.

You're trying to say that there should be no challenging environments with better rewards when that is, in fact, a fundamental part of good game design. The problem is that FW is missing the depth that was promised to retain the people who play there, not that it's not casual enough. It was never supposed to be casual. If we wanted casual we'd be in QP.

And again your correct on a few things the original concept of FP was not good from the start it lacked the Social aspects of the old Mechwarrior4 leagues it lacked diversity and no depth or a true end game as in if the IS or Clan captured worlds and concurred for a season where were the rewards?

If the lords of MWO would have made FP a progressive game mode as you say it would have worked much better than it did most of the old guard players about 300,000 of them left because they wanted to play MWO like Mechwarrior4 had been with Solaris and planetary leagues not a shallow repetitive FPS.

Even in past faction warfare for the old PC IP games MW2-MW4 players progressed from solo play to small team play 2v2-4v4 then on to a full blown planetary league 12 v12 game play there were a few exceptions but not many as alot of training was involved in actual 8v8-12v12 group game play in the leagues.

To be honest I personally don't think posting on these forums will change anything in MWO anymore everyone here posting or placing topics is just wasting there time including me.

[RaptorCWS]

KingCobra, on 16 January 2018 - 07:42 PM, said:

there were a few exceptions but not many as alot of training was involved in actual 8v8-12v12 group game play in the leagues.

I dont think any of the top units actually train... we just play the game and have fun.

[poopenshire]

RaptorCWS, on 17 January 2018 - 06:44 AM, said:

I dont think any of the top units actually train... we just play the game and have fun.

Yes top units certainly train, just not always in or for FW. I can tell you from the units I was in, training is serious business. Will this training carryover and help with FW, most certainly.

Now for FW dedicated units, while I am not sure if they train per se, they for certain organize like they were performing competitive drops. This includes known strats, prepared builds, complimentary drop decks. I can say for certain though prep work does play a role in some FW dedicated units success.

[TWIAFU]

poopenshire, on 17 January 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

Yes top units certainly train, just not always in or for FW. I can tell you from the units I was in, training is serious business. Will this training carryover and help with FW, most certainly.

Now for FW dedicated units, while I am not sure if they train per se, they for certain organize like they were performing competitive drops. This includes known strats, prepared builds, complimentary drop decks. I can say for certain though prep work does play a role in some FW dedicated units success.

They most certainly train in some way, shape, or form.

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

TWIAFU, on 17 January 2018 - 07:43 AM, said:

They most certainly train in some way, shape, or form.

Best training is just to drop within invasion.
Now getting a private lobby and going over certain map strategies can be good as well but other then that, I don't see a point.

[RaptorCWS]

Lady Alexandra Cousland, on 17 January 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

Best training is just to drop within invasion.
Now getting a private lobby and going over certain map strategies can be good as well but other then that, I don't see a point.

thats what i was getting at. at a certain point you learn the maps and game type and bring the proper mech builds into battle and at a certain point you know where to shoot each mech chassis for the fastest kill or disable the majority of weapons.. if you want to call regular drops "training" go right ahead but thats not what most think of when they hear the word training.

Edited by RaptorCWS, 17 January 2018 - 08:57 AM.

[GBxGhostRider]

Lady Alexandra Cousland, on 17 January 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

Best training is just to drop within invasion.
Now getting a private lobby and going over certain map strategies can be good as well but other then that, I don't see a point.

You have to understand back when that fellow(KingCobra) played MechWarrior 4 /MechWarrior4 mercenaries probably on a IP server or the old msn gaming zone there were over 500 maps for the games and 20 different game modes if he played in Solaris and planetary leagues like SL VL MWA or NBT it was like a part time job at night playing and training with your team.

There are very few MWO players now playing that remember those days it was like playing on a baseball team not some shallow game play like MWO has even at comp level.

P.S As to this topic PGI really never understood this mechwarrior IP or they never would have placed new players or others with organized teams and then they wonder WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL OUR PLAYERS? DUH.

Edited by GBxGhostRider, 17 January 2018 - 09:32 AM.

[sub2000]

MischiefSC, on 16 January 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

Except that it worked great in MWO for the first 18 months until it became clear PGI wasn't going to actually deliver on the rest of the content so units left.
.....

I just had a nice jam in TF2 with some old online friends of mine, I've spent time during 2000s, who happened to play MWO a lot until end of 2016 (or something). They said same thing: they got tired not of "lack of content" or whatever you mean by that but they got tired of absence of MM, i.e. of having continuous mix of easy victories and horrible defeats, and getting extremely pissed off trying to adjust to that rollecoaster, and there was universal contempt to the map design, especially CW. That is it.

[TWIAFU]

Lady Alexandra Cousland, on 17 January 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

Best training is just to drop within invasion.
Now getting a private lobby and going over certain map strategies can be good as well but other then that, I don't see a point.

Still training in some way, shape, or form. Sound familiar?