54 replies to this topic

[ANOM O MECH]

Another time bump may happen before the end of this game, you never know.

If mixedtech ever happened, it would be only new chasis that would be able to do this right? Or perhaps new variants? This would also be limited to IS as Clans didn't mix up tech did they?

Think it would be best implemented if ever in such a way that it wasn't just opening the door on every mech to whatever.

It also in my mind would be a way to bring in mix tech without obsoleting a ton of mechs or equipment, especially if mechs introduced with mix tech where perhaps limited to something along lore. Like if a mech was supposed to have 2 IS meds and 2 Clan lpls you would have two hard points for IS lasers and two for Clan.

Basically just putting it out there as sort of an unfinished thought, hoping some other folks ideas and discussion about how to bring it into the game in a reasonable way if possible at all.

Also I usually learn stuff from lore guys in these kinds of threads.

[InvictusLee]

Jihad/lostech would be awesome. Id keep my current mechs. Id add a HAG to the game, real LB's and fun weapons like plasma PPCs and X Pulse lasers.

[Khobai]

mixtech defeats the purpose of having two different techbases

[InvictusLee]

Khobai, on 16 January 2018 - 10:15 PM, said:

mixtech defeats the purpose of having two different techbases

true but battletech has always been about mixed tech, loss tech, new tech, jihad tech, comstar tech, ad infinum.

[N0ni]

Do you want clan mechs to have 3 IS LPL/LLs with no ghost heat, better clustering SRMs, SLs and SPLs with no ghost heat limit and run all this better because of 2 slot heat sinks instead of 3?

If you don't want clan mechs access to any of these special things the IS gets, mix tech is a no-go.

[K O Z A K]

imo mixtech is the only way to stop clan/IS OP whining, unfortunately it will just end in a whole new meta with the same results

[InvictusLee]

@Noni: yes.
@Hazeclaw: and yes.

You both have a correct conclusion.
We can solve part of this issue by ridding ourselves of GH and instituting a power drain, not draw, system instead. Works essentially the same but one has to let the Fuzion reactor spool up a bit before firing again.

Snub PPCs would do real work for the clan side with alot less heat.

[ANOM O MECH]

Khobai, on 16 January 2018 - 10:15 PM, said:

mixtech defeats the purpose of having two different techbases

I'd agree if it were opened up as a free for all.

If it were specific mechs and limited it could be an interesting niche. Oh, and it has been in other games in the series and is a part of lore. If possible I would like to experience a mech or two with it.

[ANOM O MECH]

N0ni, on 16 January 2018 - 10:18 PM, said:

Do you want clan mechs to have 3 IS LPL/LLs with no ghost heat, better clustering SRMs, SLs and SPLs with no ghost heat limit and run all this better because of 2 slot heat sinks instead of 3?

If you don't want clan mechs access to any of these special things the IS gets, mix tech is a no-go.

Nope.

Would never want the flood doors opened to every mech. The power creep and min/maxing would be gross.

Again, clans would not have the option to mount IS equipment. It would be something introduced only on new mechs that had mix tech in lore and just that mixed tech.

This isn't an all or nothing or if you get this we need to get that too. That is something a four year old would say.

Edited by tker 669, 16 January 2018 - 10:51 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Again, clans would not have the option to mount IS equipment.

so youd let IS mechs use clan tech

but you wouldnt let clan mechs use IS tech

why would you ever play clans then

[Brain Cancer]

tker 669, on 16 January 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

Another time bump may happen before the end of this game, you never know.

If mixedtech ever happened, it would be only new chasis that would be able to do this right? Or perhaps new variants? This would also be limited to IS as Clans didn't mix up tech did they?

Actually, the first mixtech was the (C) refits of Inner Sphere robots for garrison duty. By the Clans. There's also beasts like the Ha-Otoko, most notably the -1C and -HR.

Quote

Think it would be best implemented if ever in such a way that it wasn't just opening the door on every mech to whatever.

It also in my mind would be a way to bring in mix tech without obsoleting a ton of mechs or equipment, especially if mechs introduced with mix tech where perhaps limited to something along lore. Like if a mech was supposed to have 2 IS meds and 2 Clan lpls you would have two hard points for IS lasers and two for Clan.

Basically just putting it out there as sort of an unfinished thought, hoping some other folks ideas and discussion about how to bring it into the game in a reasonable way if possible at all.

Mixtech basically destroys plenty of choices that only exist as "good" because they're only able to use one set of tech. The meta would narrow drastically.

[GrimReaper74]

Khobai, on 16 January 2018 - 10:52 PM, said:

so youd let IS mechs use clan tech

but you wouldnt let clan mechs use IS tech

why would you ever play clans then

They don‘t.
The whole catalogue of demands being brought up here on a regular basis is just plain greed. The petitioners want the best of both worlds without any drawbacks... and then some.

Although... let them have mix-tech... with clan equipment having its either it c-bill cost multiplied by 100 or just charging MC for these components at a rate of c-bill cost/1000 (I‘m being lenient here.... /100 would be more appropriate).

[Brain Cancer]

Oooh, perfect pay to win scheme right there.

We already have players with billions of C-bills to burn, never mind MC.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

No mixtech, ever. At least 50% of the equipment in the game becomes instantly obsolete if it happens- mostly IS equipment that has a lighter/more powerful/less bulky Clan equivalent, but some pieces of Clantech as well.

Every single ISXL and LFE? Gone. CXL is just better.
IS support hardware? Gone. Nobody wants to pay 1.5t/2s for ECM if they can have it for 1/1.
IS Endo/Ferro/Light Ferro? Gone.
IS ERPPC? Gone. CERPPC yields more damage for the same heat and less weight/bulk.
IS Gauss and LTGauss? Gone. CGauss is flat out superior to both.
IS MGs? Clans get 'em for half tonnage.

SRMs? Leaning towards Clantech here; the slight damage/spread edge for ISSRMs is negated by Clan launchers being half the tonnage. ASN with 4xCSRM6A, BSW with 6xCSRM6A, for less tonnage and fewer slots than their present splat loadouts? Yeah, not seeing anyone keeping their ISSRMs on anything sub-heavy.

Streaks? IS launchers are too heavy and Clans get better range anyway.

LRMs? Probably still leaning Clans; half tonnage launchers is a huge advantage, even though ISLRMs are more resistant to AMS.

IS UAC2? Probably dead, for what little use it saw; CUAC2 is straight up better. The rest of the UACs lean IS, because their bursts are shorter.

IS LBX? All dead. CLBX is better.

CACs? Dead as a doornail; PPFLD laughs at burst fire.

ATMs? Why use 'em if you've got MRMs, when the MRMs have no min range and don't need lock? ATMs are probably dead.

Clan pulse lasers? Eh, probably dead. They deal more raw damage but the ultra-short burns and cooler alphas make IS pulse win in brawls.

Clans, however, dominate the spike alpha laservomit; any IS laser without the word "pulse" in its name is dead.

Only the weapons which have no equivalents or are exactly equal to their counterparts either remain unaffected or don't obsolete other tech: HPPC, LPPC, SNPPC, HGauss, RLs, RACs, stealth armor, standard AMS, STD engines (for all three of the builds that'll need them if mixtech went in)... and that's about it. Everything else either gets shafted or does the shafting.

C'mon, this isn't a big mystery. It's happened every single time mixtech was allowed in any other BT property.

[Jingseng]

Mixtech would be a disaster for everyone except the very top competitive tier. It would be a disaster for casuals, try hards, potato, PGI, and everyone not in some kind of weirdly named group.

For most, they've just lost their most easily touted justification for sucking.

For others, they'll have to find something new to complain about (or else end up quitting because of consequences they failed to take into account).

For the game, mixtech is anti diverse. Meta building becomes even more of a focused goal... which means variability in effective builds becomes much, much reduced. Everything will boil down to hardpoints, and you will start to see either further hardpoint power creep, hardpoint nerfing, or more likely, both.

You will absolutely end up losing a large portion of the playerbase through mixtech. Precisely because the goal is "Build exactly like everyone else or lose"... like now, but MUCH more so.

There will be no reason to take IS missiles or Clan UACs... no reason to mount IS Gauss or MGs (or ecm, or tc, or ap)... or IS Ferro, Endo, or LFE. In each weight category/meta role, there will be one or two mech variants that will be optimal. Nothing else will be worth playing at all. And those variants will have one optimal build (+ skill tree) that shines as all or nothing... no working up to a complete build, you either have every piece or you wont even be able to build it.

that's the kind of f2p gameplay that reduces servers to a tiny handful of die hards and no one else... in short, the super competitive who run that sort of min/maxing 24/7.

Mixtech ironically does two things to balance: it obsoletes all the (arbitrary) effort previously put in to trying to balance and maintain distinct differences, and it makes further attempts at balancing nearly impossible.

Do you think ghost heating ppcs & gauss rifles together was the best possible solution? Because that will be the future of balance - nerfing specific combinations and builds (and everything else that gets affected is just collateral damage). Anything else is too time consuming and difficulty (bad ROI) because of the sheer variability of combinations and effects to take into account. Rather than shift numbers and change the meta unpredictably from one build to another, just whack-a-mole each meta with a nerf as it pops up.

Mixtech is bad for nearly everyone. It wont make players happy despite claims that it will (like new game modes, like revamped game modes, like new maps, like certain mechs). It wont (can't) be implemented elegantly. It absolutely will drive away players. And all of that is because it is giving a tiny handful (and a larger group of misguided never-happies) min/max OPness. That's all mixtech is: min/maxing for OP. It literally does not serve any other purpose. It wont balance by averaging things out - because (lrms aside) no one intentionally picks something bad over something good, all other things being equal.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Sooo, I can get two clan HLL, three IS LL, and some ERMLs supernova? Yes please!

Also, IS UAC10 clan UAC5 madcats.

[Armored Yokai]

remove all quirks, add mixtech = profit
it's no longer 3050 and mixtech wont really be bad because both sides have access to it.
goodbye I.S/Clan OP

[Armored Yokai]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 17 January 2018 - 12:46 AM, said:

No mixtech, ever. At least 50% of the equipment in the game becomes instantly obsolete if it happens- mostly IS equipment that has a lighter/more powerful/less bulky Clan equivalent, but some pieces of Clantech as well.

Every single ISXL and LFE? Gone. CXL is just better.
IS support hardware? Gone. Nobody wants to pay 1.5t/2s for ECM if they can have it for 1/1.
IS Endo/Ferro/Light Ferro? Gone.
IS ERPPC? Gone. CERPPC yields more damage for the same heat and less weight/bulk.
IS Gauss and LTGauss? Gone. CGauss is flat out superior to both.
IS MGs? Clans get 'em for half tonnage.

SRMs? Leaning towards Clantech here; the slight damage/spread edge for ISSRMs is negated by Clan launchers being half the tonnage. ASN with 4xCSRM6A, BSW with 6xCSRM6A, for less tonnage and fewer slots than their present splat loadouts? Yeah, not seeing anyone keeping their ISSRMs on anything sub-heavy.

Streaks? IS launchers are too heavy and Clans get better range anyway.

LRMs? Probably still leaning Clans; half tonnage launchers is a huge advantage, even though ISLRMs are more resistant to AMS.

IS UAC2? Probably dead, for what little use it saw; CUAC2 is straight up better. The rest of the UACs lean IS, because their bursts are shorter.

IS LBX? All dead. CLBX is better.

CACs? Dead as a doornail; PPFLD laughs at burst fire.

ATMs? Why use 'em if you've got MRMs, when the MRMs have no min range and don't need lock? ATMs are probably dead.

Clan pulse lasers? Eh, probably dead. They deal more raw damage but the ultra-short burns and cooler alphas make IS pulse win in brawls.

Clans, however, dominate the spike alpha laservomit; any IS laser without the word "pulse" in its name is dead.

Only the weapons which have no equivalents or are exactly equal to their counterparts either remain unaffected or don't obsolete other tech: HPPC, LPPC, SNPPC, HGauss, RLs, RACs, stealth armor, standard AMS, STD engines (for all three of the builds that'll need them if mixtech went in)... and that's about it. Everything else either gets shafted or does the shafting.

C'mon, this isn't a big mystery. It's happened every single time mixtech was allowed in any other BT property.

Who cares if tech isn't used.

[Siegegun]

Mixtech is a horrible idea. It would limit choices and invalidate a ton of IS equipment.

We do not need mixtech. We need PGI to balance better.

Armored Yokai, on 17 January 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

Who cares if tech isn't used.

I care.

[Luminis]

I just want a WHM-6R with a cXL300, 2x cGauss, 6x cERML and 15 cDHS. That's a 72 dmg alpha with a 42% heat efficiency - basically a true baby Deathstrike.

/edit:
The amount of firepower you can field if your equipment is light and compact is amazing, isn't it?

Edited by Luminis, 17 January 2018 - 07:40 AM.