38 replies to this topic

[FuzzyNZ]

If we are paying Cbills for UAVs, Strikes and Coolshots, why do we not pay for ammo used?

Why is ammo a one off cost?

Under same vein, shouldn't UAVs Strikes and Cooldowns be one off too?

[Bombast]

Lasers have it good enough as it is, no need to put an even higher burden on ammo weapons, please.

More on point, ammo is required for a match (For shooting). Consumables aren't.

[Metus regem]

FuzzyNZ, on 17 January 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

If we are paying Cbills for UAVs, Strikes and Coolshots, why do we not pay for ammo used?

Why is ammo a one off cost?

Under same vein, shouldn't UAVs Strikes and Cooldowns be one off too?

In ages past, we did have repair and rearm costs... but all that did was punish player that ran equipment other than energy weapons and basic kit (standard engines/structure/armour and SHS). So PGI took it out, and lowered the amount we earn in matches to compensate for that.

[Dimento Graven]

Ammo is paid for by your house military or by the holder of your mercenary contract.

It's included for them as a 'cost of doing business'...

[Water Bear]

Yes, ammo is a consumable by the definition of the word, but no, it's not treated like the category of items in the game called "consumables."

This seems like an odd semantic question to create a thread about.

[Spheroid]

I suggest you dedicate a mere ten seconds to thinking through your question and arriving at the obvious conclusion for yourself.

Ammo expenditure adds nothing, was tried and was deemed a failure. You seem to either want to punish ammo users or promote consumable spam. Those are both undesirable.

Edited by Spheroid, 17 January 2018 - 09:50 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Spheroid, on 17 January 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

...

Ammo expenditure adds nothing, was tried and was deemed a failure. You seem to either want to punish ammo users or promote consumable spam. Those are both undesirable.

Rearm and Refit were removed so that players would feel more comfortable brawling. With R&R active you had a LOT of players who refused to do anything but peek and poke, even in 8v1 situations...

That, and I seem to recall that people with little MC were regularly coming to matches with half-busted up 'mechs with little to no ammo because they couldn't afford to completely fix and rearm their 'mechs, but I could be confusing that memory with another game...

[FuzzyNZ]

I guess I just want a balanced game where consumables actually need crit slots or tonnage.

[sycocys]

FuzzyNZ, on 17 January 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

I guess I just want a balanced game where consumables actually need crit slots or tonnage.

This. It won't ever happen because the players that rely on them don't really care about having a balanced game.

[Bombast]

FuzzyNZ, on 17 January 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

I guess I just want a balanced game where consumables actually need crit slots or tonnage.

A noble goal, but barely related to the thread you started.

[Dimento Graven]

sycocys, on 17 January 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

This. It won't ever happen because the players that rely on them don't really care about having a balanced game.

That's a bad generalization. As I recall (and no I'm not going to check, just correct me where I F up), you get two consumable slots by default in every 'mech. To get more slots, and also subsequently more effective consumables, you have to invest skill points.

At a minimum I think you need to invest at least 10 to maximize the effectiveness of strikes and coolshots, and maybe as much as 12 to get additional strikes and shots.

12 Skill points that require an investment of time and effort to earn, and could subsequently be invested in Firepower, Survivability, or mobility (not to mention jump jets, or sensors, but... got a whole other rant for those).

As our imaginary House Leaders/Jarls/Contract holders will pay for ammo and refit, any non-essential ammo/armor, consumables fall under 'discretionary' usage, and therefore are up to the pilot to cover the cost. You don't HAVE to have a coolshot or strike to complete the 'mission' so the costs of those come out of your end of mission 'pay'.

[sycocys]

The fact you have 2 free slots and have to invest in the buff tree to add more it doesn't do anything to detract from the fact that the people that rely on them will fight any notion of change to make them balanced with all the other gear you take to a match - including things like JJ and the various computers.

As far as the skill tree goes, everything point you spend should have an offsetting cost on your loadout - the lack of this is why the module system (especially) and the original skill buff system were bad in the first place. They don't serve to create specializations/roles or develop balance, they just created and made huge gaps in the imbalances between players with fully rigged mechs and players with just purchased mechs regardless of elo/PSR ranking.

[Dimento Graven]

sycocys, on 17 January 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

The fact you have 2 free slots and have to invest in the buff tree to add more it doesn't do anything to detract from the fact that the people that rely on them will fight any notion of change to make them balanced with all the other gear you take to a match - including things like JJ and the various computers.

As far as the skill tree goes, everything point you spend should have an offsetting cost on your loadout - the lack of this is why the module system (especially) and the original skill buff system were bad in the first place. They don't serve to create specializations/roles or develop balance, they just created and made huge gaps in the imbalances between players with fully rigged mechs and players with just purchased mechs regardless of elo/PSR ranking.

I disagree. There is no "relying on them" when it comes to strikes. They are WAY too 'RNGeesus' in nature and have had enough nerfs on them such that they are no longer that 'coup de grace' they once were.

Only the most potato of player would KNOWINGLY stand around with visible 'red smoke' in the vicinity, and only the most potato of groups would spend long enough in a tight cluster to allow multiple strikes hit them.

As far as cool shots, I don't necessarily like the current implementation of them either, and believe that they should represent a crit slot, and be 'purchasable' at preset 'ignition values' (that's kind of how I recall TT rules were).

BUT, as is, it's not game breaking. EVERYONE in the game has the opportunity to load at least one of each at only the basic cost of 40k cbills per, and given that PGI has given us FREE consumables since the skill tree was introduced, even now we should have plenty to least a few night's game play at zero cost.

The skill tree itself allows for CONSIDERABLE specialization. Unfortunately I don't believe it's current iteration allows for "efficient specialization", requiring many unwanted skills be purchased to acquire the few you do (like placing ECM, seismic, and other sorts of skills at the very bottoms of their respective trees).

Be that as it may, it's more interesting to play than it was before, and definitely more thought and planning is required when equipping and skilling up a 'mech.

That's not a bad thing.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 17 January 2018 - 11:12 AM.

[Throe]

[removed by user]

Edited by Throe, 05 October 2023 - 01:54 PM.

[Khobai]

consumables need to be removed from the game

and replaced with equipment that actually takes up crits/tonnage

[Mystere]

FuzzyNZ, on 17 January 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

I guess I just want a balanced game where consumables actually need crit slots or tonnage.

sycocys, on 17 January 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

This. It won't ever happen because the players that rely on them don't really care about having a balanced game.

I really do not get comments like these. Everyone has access to consumables, no exceptions. As such, that is "balanced enough" for me and probably for many others.

Now, if you are instead referring to the new player experience and how new players are disadvantaged, you might have a point. However, the existence of the skill tree puts a monkey wrench on your argument.

[James Argent]

FuzzyNZ, on 17 January 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

I guess I just want a balanced game where consumables actually need crit slots or tonnage.

How many tons and crit slots does a smoke grenade add to a mech?

How many tons does a drone fitted with a camera weigh...like, right now, in 2018?

Cool shots use already-installed mech coolant to flush heat sinks. There is merit to the argument that after using it the cooling efficiency should go down, but it could just as easily be argued that one (or two) uses of this feature is all that the system is capable of before the cooling efficiency is affected, and that's why overall heat efficiency never goes down after using a cool shot.

[Ken Harkin]

Because you do not need to use consumables to compete. You do need to fire your weapons.

If you are going to charge to use weapons then the next step is charging to repair mechs which will be immediately followed by the destruction of the player base.

Leave it alone.

[FuzzyNZ]

James Argent, on 17 January 2018 - 01:49 PM, said:

How many tons and crit slots does a smoke grenade add to a mech?

How many tons does a drone fitted with a camera weigh...like, right now, in 2018?

Cool shots use already-installed mech coolant to flush heat sinks. There is merit to the argument that after using it the cooling efficiency should go down, but it could just as easily be argued that one (or two) uses of this feature is all that the system is capable of before the cooling efficiency is affected, and that's why overall heat efficiency never goes down after using a cool shot.

So if a 'smoke grenade' which has infinite range weighs next to 0. Why can't we equip an infinite number of these cheap smoke grenades?

Ken Harkin, on 17 January 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

Because you do not need to use consumables to compete. You do need to fire your weapons.

If you are going to charge to use weapons then the next step is charging to repair mechs which will be immediately followed by the destruction of the player base.

Leave it alone.

I think you do need consumables to compete actually. Same mech, same loadout, one has a coolshot, the other has maxed out armour even... who will win?

[James Argent]

FuzzyNZ, on 17 January 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

So if a 'smoke grenade' which has infinite range weighs next to 0. Why can't we equip an infinite number of these cheap smoke grenades?

Because aerofighter bombs and artillery shells are not infinite.