322 replies to this topic

[Mech Nuggets]

Helsbane, on 17 January 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

While I understand the premise of the original post, there's the problem of my Cbill account. I only get paid for shooting enemy robots. Capturing nodes or shooting gens is fine and all, but playing the objectives pays jack sh*t. So, yeah, in a game where I get paid to shoot giant robots, I'm gonna shoot giant robots until they make playing the objectives pay comparably. And, we all know that isn't gonna happen, because then people will whine and moan about objective rushes in CW and we'll have a river of tears about units steamrolling their way to wins in under 5 minutes by playing the objectives instead of farming.

Helsbane, on 17 January 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

While I understand the premise of the original post, there's the problem of my Cbill account. I only get paid for shooting enemy robots. Capturing nodes or shooting gens is fine and all, but playing the objectives pays jack sh*t. So, yeah, in a game where I get paid to shoot giant robots, I'm gonna shoot giant robots until they make playing the objectives pay comparably. And, we all know that isn't gonna happen, because then people will whine and moan about objective rushes in CW and we'll have a river of tears about units steamrolling their way to wins in under 5 minutes by playing the objectives instead of farming.

If it's just for the C-Bills, don't play Invasion! You can make more quicker in Quickplay or even faster in Scouting!
Faction Play is at it's lowest since it's ever been, farming pugs as they drop out of the dropship won't help to make that recover.
Faction Play is not about Planets anymore, since the Merge it removed the point completely.
You now have three types of players:
1. The Grinder (maxing out Ranks on as many factions as possible, aka. just here for the rewards)
2. The Hardliner (The player that just simply loves the concept of bringing 4 Mechs and Objectives, doesn't care about rewards)
3. The Casual (drops in FP every now and then, possibly unitless, possibly new to the game)

We are lacking Type 4. The Regular (returns frequently, enjoys the mode, fills queues, improves over time)

Type 4 evolves from Type 3

rarely do players pass the gate from type 3 to 4, and one of the reasons is farming.
That is only partially a PGI designed problem. The majority of it is playermade. We the community should encourage the Casual to become a regular. not discourage them by kicking them in the balls while they are lying on the floor yelling GIT GUD NOOB!

Offering Training as ASH proposes is one way of adressing this.
All I am saying is don't kick em while they're down. If that's too much to ask, we're going no where else with this

[justcallme A S H]

Given all modes except Skirmish - have objectives, that isn't what you were saying at all.

Why is Incursion any different to Siege? It's just an objective you can rush after killing 12 mechs or kill 48 mechs.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 18 January 2018 - 12:37 AM.

[Mech Nuggets]

justcallme A S H, on 18 January 2018 - 12:36 AM, said:

Given all modes except Skirmish - have objectives, that isn't what you were saying at all.

Why is Incursion any different to Siege? It's just an objective you can rush after killing 12 mechs or kill 48 mechs.

My OP says:
so here is what we can do.
In an Invasion Match, if we attack and clearly overpower the enemy, regardless if they appear to be unitless or a twelve man, refrain from farming and just finish the match by objective.
In a Domination match, finish capping, instead of pushing out to farm damage at the dropzone.

Yes Incursion is similar, but while a full group of 12 can be happily dropfarming, a lance of 2-3 Assasins or else can sneak back and smash the enemy base quicker than they can eject and redrop.
For a defender on Siege, the only possible outcome is to kill all enemies.

[The Basilisk]

justcallme A S H, on 17 January 2018 - 07:13 PM, said:

Good for you guys.

But after waiting 3-4mins for a match (either side).
3-4mins for the game to load/lobby.
Walking 2 mins across the map to get to the enemy...

I'm not repeating that time wasting again. FP for a lot of people is about Merc/Loyality points and earning rewards. Less kills/damage etc means, less of those rewards.

So it's totally reasonable to expect people to want to maximise their rewards for time played.

I've put forward a way for players to go into training, so far 3 people have taken it up... Yep, just 3. So if the players don't wanna improve, then that is their problem.

#letthefarmingcontinue

Or you finaly get to accept that ppl just want to have fun and not want to get "schooled" by someone.
They just want to play, preferably with someone like themselfs and not some "yahavtaplaylikedisorgetrekt" guys.

We have this discussion since the implementation of singleplayers to fill up groups in CW and the only thing that happened is Units dieing and an always increasing percentage of PuG players in FP.
This will not change since there is no real incentive besides from roflstomping PuGs for big Groups and Units in MWO.
Getting into a group and getting organiced takes time, personal efford and some nerves since especially some of the more ...eager....players are of....difficult...character.
So infact you will spend more time with organisation and get saddled with your group than actually playing the game.
For somebody comming from work just wanting to make some drops befor bedtime this isn't realy an option.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

The Basilisk, on 18 January 2018 - 12:58 AM, said:

Or you finaly get to accept that ppl just want to have fun and not want to get "schooled" by someone.
They just want to play, preferably with someone like themselfs and not some "yahavtaplaylikedisorgetrekt" guys.

We have this discussion since the implementation of singleplayers to fill up groups in CW and the only thing that happened is Units dieing and an always increasing percentage of PuG players in FP.
This will not change since there is no real incentive besides from roflstomping PuGs for big Groups and Units in MWO.
Getting into a group and getting organiced takes time, personal efford and some nerves since especially some of the more ...eager....players are of....difficult...character.
So infact you will spend more time with organisation and get saddled with your group than actually playing the game.
For somebody comming from work just wanting to make some drops befor bedtime this isn't realy an option.

For the stomping side, this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of scenario. Get blamed for pug stomping, but also get blamed for ending it early. Point being, for every player on the side getting clubbed who wants it to end, there is just as likely a player who wants to have every chance to do as much damage as possible and earn as much LP and Cbills as possible even though they're on the wrong side of a one sided stomp.

As far as the fun thing... The only thing in MWO that you 'have' to spend 'real money' on is mech bays. PGI provides plenty of events to earn MC without spending money. The only thing you earn in FP that you can't earn in QP is LP which leads to mechbays and MC rewards. Why should PGI make mech bays easier to acquire if it is part of their micro transaction revenue stream?

That is what you are advocating for isn't it? A place where it is easier for the 'casual' or 'new' player to grind out LP to earn mech bays and MC outside of events? If we take the 'fun' aspect or the 'lore' aspect or the 'game depth' away and really look at the core of the issue, PGI has chosen to place those rewards in a game mode that is hard. Maybe they have a logical reason for it from a game sustainability standpoint? I mean, they do have to pay the bills somehow. If it were easy to farm MC and mech bays and cbills, what incentive is there for people to buy mechpacks?

[The Basilisk]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 18 January 2018 - 01:17 AM, said:

For the stomping side, this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of scenario. Get blamed for pug stomping, but also get blamed for ending it early. Point being, for every player on the side getting clubbed who wants it to end, there is just as likely a player who wants to have every chance to do as much damage as possible and earn as much LP and Cbills as possible even though they're on the wrong side of a one sided stomp.

As far as the fun thing... The only thing in MWO that you 'have' to spend 'real money' on is mech bays. PGI provides plenty of events to earn MC without spending money. The only thing you earn in FP that you can't earn in QP is LP which leads to mechbays and MC rewards. Why should PGI make mech bays easier to acquire if it is part of their micro transaction revenue stream?

That is what you are advocating for isn't it? A place where it is easier for the 'casual' or 'new' player to grind out LP to earn mech bays and MC outside of events? If we take the 'fun' aspect or the 'lore' aspect or the 'game depth' away and really look at the core of the issue, PGI has chosen to place those rewards in a game mode that is hard. Maybe they have a logical reason for it from a game sustainability standpoint? I mean, they do have to pay the bills somehow. If it were easy to farm MC and mech bays and cbills, what incentive is there for people to buy mechpacks?

Good in haven no that is not what is on my agenda.
In fact I'm a bit split about the whole FP thing.
On the one side I'm totaly disgusted by the atitude (not Ash, he's at least trying to act constructive even if he will need to develop a hell of a lot more endurance to achieve something remotely noticable) of some of the FP PuG ganking Units but on the other side I find it completely aggravating that teamplay and the efford to participate, organize and maintain Units isn't rewarded much more.

But for this there have to be obligatory split queues with considderable and staggered (not only the top dogs should be rewarded everyone that is able to put up and maintain a companie, aka 12 man drop, should get a sizeable chunk of the cake) rewards on the Unit side of the Queue. Just make sure there is no easy way to farm. Make big rewards for big effords.
The PuG, no Unit, side can stay as it is, just without MC rewards.

That beeing said it should be clear to everyone that rewarding teamplay outside of the competitive scene is not wanted by PGI.
See all the smal events over the course of the last year and know where their points of focus are....not with Units.

Edited by The Basilisk, 18 January 2018 - 01:41 AM.

[Bishop Six]

The Basilisk, on 18 January 2018 - 12:58 AM, said:

Or you finaly get to accept that ppl just want to have fun and not want to get "schooled" by someone.
They just want to play, preferably with someone like themselfs and not some "yahavtaplaylikedisorgetrekt" guys.

We have this discussion since the implementation of singleplayers to fill up groups in CW and the only thing that happened is Units dieing and an always increasing percentage of PuG players in FP.
This will not change since there is no real incentive besides from roflstomping PuGs for big Groups and Units in MWO.
Getting into a group and getting organiced takes time, personal efford and some nerves since especially some of the more ...eager....players are of....difficult...character.
So infact you will spend more time with organisation and get saddled with your group than actually playing the game.
For somebody comming from work just wanting to make some drops befor bedtime this isn't realy an option.

You have a point. And excactly that is what i am doing for weeks now: I try to organize the pugs to join our group, not unit. For that i made a thread in our sub-forum (sorry for not writing it in english)
https://mwomercs.com...__fromsearch__1

To sum up my thread:
Everyone who is willed to join a group for FP is very welcome to our TS. We will take you with us, no matter if you want to join our unit or just playing some matches with us. We are not harsh or rude, just a bit crazy

Only some rules are there:
1. If we have a drop-lead, please follow orders (we are not that organized like comp-teams)
2. no reinforcing
3. no slow assaults in wave 3 and 4
4. LRMs only if asked before the match
5. WE LIKE PUSHES

That's it. Doesnt matter if you talk german or not, we can switch language if we have foreigners as guests, no problem

So everyone who likes this idea, can feel free to add me ingame as friend, so i will send you ninja-invites on a regurlarly base. (European prime time mostly).

See you on battlefield o7

[TWIAFU]

Mech Nuggets, on 17 January 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

so here is what we can do.
In an Invasion Match, if we attack and clearly overpower the enemy, regardless if they appear to be unitless or a twelve man, refrain from farming and just finish the match by objective.

In a Domination match, finish capping, instead of pushing out to farm damage at the dropzone.


#makeFPgreatagain

Can't do that. Your not allowed to do Objectives or your Objective Rushing. Not allowed to Cap out Domination, or your doing Objective.

Can't kill them all to end tier misery or your farming.

So, can't end a match via objectives or by killing.

So, all we can do is hug it out so nobody is hurt or feelings diminished.

[Bud Crue]

Perhaps I missed it above, but the topic is “why do NEW players quit” FP, this makes me instantly think “wait, there are new players of appreciable numbers playing faction play?” Which will then lead to the obvious answer: “no”.

There are not enough players playing faction play at all, to make the few mythical “new players” that may or may not stick around relevant. I don’t mean that in the sense of “relevant” to me or to any one posting above, but relevant to PGI. If the last year of FP “development” has taught the community anything, it is that PGI no longer cares about this mode overall so from their perspective, “who cares about retaining the 17 new players that give it a try every month” or whatever their metrics show. Their touted “refocus” of the mode (see January 2017 Round table) was nothing more than some house keeping to keep the mode running and the addition of a pretense of a lore based “civil war” special event, that didn’t actually allow the factions involved in that civil war to fight one another. If PGI doesn’t care about the mode to keep existing players interested (outside of the aforementioned special events, and those are as temporary as a new players stay, and driven by rewards rather than actual changes made to the mode to make it attractive to play) it certainly doesn’t care about keeping new players around either.

The question is thus, moot. New players will have pleanty of reason to stick around just as soon as PGI decides to make a mode that gives old players a reason to stick around.

[Elad]

So my experience was probably atypical, but I've played 2 FP matches as a new player, both on the same night and both when I was really, really new (under 100 games and owned 2 mechs). Pretty sure I broke all the rules regarding coming prepared or even knowing wtf was going on. Literally saw the call to action button blinking for several minutes while in the garage and decided to click it. I dropped with the only two mechs I owned at the time (an ENF-4R (3ll, 2ml), Crb-27 (zombie 5mpl)) and two trial mechs. The first match we had a 4 man unit that called for our pug group (I think EVIL, but not 100% on that) and we barely won on Boreal Vault against the other team's objective rush - I think we were down to last objective having less than 20% life, but it was something like 48 to 22 kills. I'm sure I was a hindrance, but I basically just followed directions and had fun. The second match was pretty much the exact opposite as the other team had mostly 1 group (I think KCOM, but again not 100% sure). The loudest/saltiest folks on our coms pretty much gave up at the load in screen. We lost the first fight 3-12, and the team decided to stay in the base for the rest of the waves (the hope being that we could somewhat group up before they arrived). We got farmed hard (I think we broke 20 kills as a team though), but it was still fun for me as I just focused on doing as much damage as I could and doing things like trying to focus on legs, exposed CTs, etc., before I died in each mech.

I enjoyed both of the above matches, and that is why I decided to actually try putting some decks together before dropping again (which I'm still working on). Again, my experience probably wasn't the typical "new player experience," but getting farmed didn't drive me away. The only thing I found irritating or a "turn off" about the experience was the negativity and toxicity in the second game from a couple of the extremely vocal "elite" players on our team in the second match. None of the toxicity was directed specifically at me, but man there was some salt.

[TWIAFU]

Mopar, on 18 January 2018 - 04:58 AM, said:

I feel the biggest failure of FW was the fact that any form of real consequence and RP was removed.

The original concept, presented in early game development was for FW to have more of a meta game feel. (Like the NBT days of MW4). Loyalist Units were rewarded for success by being given special deals on Mechs (particular to the faction) as well as a lower cost for repairs and ammo. (YES you had to pay for ammo and repairs to your mech)

Merc units would accept a contract and then based on their level of success would receive pay. The pay would be higher but then again they did not get the cost savings of the loyalist units. Mercs however would build reputation and units would see pay go up as their reputation for success grew, or down as they experienced failure or inactivity.

While I know this type of play would not appeal to the pure "shooter" crowd in MWO, it would make the Battletech fans come out of the woodwork to take part. The ammo and repair costs would make players be more cautious and if the rewards were linked more to objective wins, would change the play style from free for all brawling to real mech battles. By objective win rewards, I mean there should be a serious bonus for winning via objective, enough of a reward that it makes it more attractive than kill farming.

Faction Warfare was always supposed to be the RP side of MWO, the place for the real mech fans to become immersed in the lore and backstory they love. The water down, QP in another form, that it has become is just a turn off to many of those fans.

Want to make FW come alive, give it back to the RP community and let them have the game they were promised when they gave all those early backer funds.

From above post:
[/size][/left]

If you put back in ammo and repair costs you would find the concept of objective rushing would quickly become less of an issue. The same with farming as the farming might not be worth the cost of the ammo and repairs.

All well and good if we had only weapons that shot ammo.

So, just stick with lazorz and right back to where we started.

[C E Dwyer]

Newb's quit Faction Warfare, because of the following.

They play it to early.

They try and play it like Q.P

Takes a different skill set.

It's not about scoring damage, It's about playing the objective.

It's about team work, not about them collecting free mech bays, for being good solo players.

Ego's can't take having backside handed to them, by an organised unit.

All except the first one is applicable, to long established players as well.

It's not just about newbie players though.


There is very little incentive even for established players to take part in it, this remains more than any other reason, why people drift away, and don't stick at it.

P.G.I monetized all the things that would have kept people playing even if the format isn't that great, F.W exclusive camo, and famous unit badges.

[Leone]

Elad, on 18 January 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

The only thing I found irritating or a "turn off" about the experience was the negativity and toxicity in the second game from a couple of the extremely vocal "elite" players on our team in the second match. None of the toxicity was directed specifically at me, but man there was some salt.

It's weird. I mean, of all the games I've played, MWO has one of the highest learning curves. So I can never understand why folk who've put up with it an learned the game balk at a bit of 'hardmode' just cuz they see a solid team dropping against 'em. Personally I've always love those tough matches. It's taught me what I know.

Anyways, welcome to the CW Elad. If you've Teamspeak, try browsing the groups and joining up. you sound like the sort most'd love to have drop with 'em.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 18 January 2018 - 09:02 AM.

[MischiefSC]

There's a self-defeating cycle involved.

Units drop in 12s and avoid dropping with pugs anymore (we used to drop in 4mans often) because the pugs who remain in FW are often dedicatedly stupid. I DO WUT I WANT, snipe from the back, play it like it's QP types. They are slightly, and only slightly, more useful than if they just discoed every match. So groups don't want to play with them.

However that means that it's way less common for new players to drop alongside experienced units and learn how FW can and should be played, so new players just see the experience that bad pugs have worked so hard to create.

Honestly at this point the best hope I have for FW is that all those terribad pugs leave for MW5 where they can play solo with heat and ammo turned off and god mode on and take their terrible builds and make stupid choices and win anyway and feel like the Hero of Derptown they ache to be. Everything would be better off without them.

At that point hopefully the population will balance out a bit as the people in FW are there because they want to play as a team in a team oriented environment. That's the first big step to returning FW to an environment that is more welcoming to newcomers to FW.

New players themselves really shouldn't be in FW.

[KingCobra]

MischiefSC, on 18 January 2018 - 09:04 AM, said:

There's a self-defeating cycle involved.

Units drop in 12s and avoid dropping with pugs anymore (we used to drop in 4mans often) because the pugs who remain in FW are often dedicatedly stupid. I DO WUT I WANT, snipe from the back, play it like it's QP types. They are slightly, and only slightly, more useful than if they just discoed every match. So groups don't want to play with them.

However that means that it's way less common for new players to drop alongside experienced units and learn how FW can and should be played, so new players just see the experience that bad pugs have worked so hard to create.

Honestly at this point the best hope I have for FW is that all those terribad pugs leave for MW5 where they can play solo with heat and ammo turned off and god mode on and take their terrible builds and make stupid choices and win anyway and feel like the Hero of Derptown they ache to be. Everything would be better off without them.

At that point hopefully the population will balance out a bit as the people in FW are there because they want to play as a team in a team oriented environment. That's the first big step to returning FW to an environment that is more welcoming to newcomers to FW.

New players themselves really shouldn't be in FW.

Here we go again more BILE from the wannabe masters of MWO basking in there glory of killing this game because they only see inside the box.

Developers cannot add a game mode to a game and cannot expect new players and other players to play it with its higher rewards and mechbays in FP it was bound to happen and your right MR Wannabe those groups new players and solo players should not be playing against snotty wannabe organized teams they should have had there own version of FP.

[McHoshi]

PGI should not allow Pugs anymore in FP. FP is Team based so it should not be possible to pug there at all!

Pugs always get frustrated about being stomped by Groups - so the problem is not the Groups - the problems are the Pugs for not grouping up!

I am so tired of explaining it again and again, but FP is not for Pugs!
Pugs should only be allowed in QP. So easy!

Premades against Premades in FP - that would be nice and this way PGI could finally balance it the right way.
( Because you just can not balance PUGS vs PREMADES )


*just my 2 cents*

Edited by McHoshi, 18 January 2018 - 09:52 AM.

[KingCobra]

McHoshi, on 18 January 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

PGI should not allow Pugs anymore in FP. FP is Team based so it should not be possible to pug there at all!

Pugs always get frustrated about being stomped by groups - so the problem is not the Groups - the problems are the pugs for not grouping up!

I am so tired of explaining it again and again, but FP is not for Pugs!
Pugs should only be allowed in QP. So easy!

Premades against Premades in FP - that would be nice and this way PGI could finally balance it the right way.


*just my 2 cents*

And your right but then you have another problem which has been the root of FP problems to start with QP players and solo players need a game mode similar to FP with rewards so they can feel included in the end game IE planetary and also so they can take a break from QP which is very repetitive and redundant from the get go.

The lords of MWO did not really think things through well and have themselves to blame for the rift between organized groups and solo/new players in MWO.

[naterist]

KingCobra, on 18 January 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

Here we go again more BILE from the wannabe masters of MWO basking in there glory of killing this game because they only see inside the box.

Developers cannot add a game mode to a game and cannot expect new players and other players to play it with its higher rewards and mechbays in FP it was bound to happen and your right MR Wannabe those groups new players and solo players should not be playing against snotty wannabe organized teams they should have had there own version of FP.

hes not wrong. when i drop with pugs, sometimes their good players (by which i mean they dont go off and do their own thing), but sometimes you get guys who just are vocally and violently against units. i blame the units that choose to actively be jackasses over all chat. getting pwned is one thing, but when they talk **** over all chat for months (or years now i guess?) to the people their beating, then ya, it ends up leaving a bitter taste in the mouth when people think of units. if you want that to change, get pgi to start reading chat abuse reports. until then, i cant really blame the "bad pugs" for hating units as a whole, when their only consistent exposure to units is shittalking. i wouldnt want to be in a unit either if my only exposure to units was that.

[LordFatman]

if your group is farming ur group is full of cowards

[TWIAFU]

KingCobra, on 18 January 2018 - 09:54 AM, said:

And your right but then you have another problem which has been the root of FP problems to start with QP players and solo players need a game mode similar to FP with rewards so they can feel included in the end game IE planetary and also so they can take a break from QP which is very repetitive and redundant from the get go.

The lords of MWO did not really think things through well and have themselves to blame for the rift between organized groups and solo/new players in MWO.

Oh, ok, you want a safe place for solo snowflakes to pugstomp each other without fear of teamwork without ever being able to take a planet but get all the loot.

This rift is there because solo refuse to take responsibility for not reading the warning and wanting to play QP with respawn knowing full well what they will face.

But, we do not have to worry about any changes to suit the anti-social, anti-group, anti-teamwork special solo until well after solaris. Even then, they can go play that solo and never have to worry about teamwork haxxzorz.