70 replies to this topic

[Judah Malganis]

Roles don't matter as long as they are played well. A good sniper laying down solid fire on targets at an effective range is as good as a mid-range or brawler who reads the field and pushes in with their team when the time is right, regardless of mech class. The issue is players who hesitate when the fight is upon them.

Maybe some people consider that some if the youtubers aren't all that great, but their videos do show some basic truths, such as communication, group movement, and steady aggression being king. Even weirdly executed GROUP movements will spank a team that finds the first piece of shady real estate and just camps there. We all know that this, but few players are willing to take a risk for the team. Some players see assault armor as insurance for a sniper, figuring that they will most likely lose the match anyways, and the extra armor will give them 5 or 6 more seconds to get a kill when they're the last one up and the rest of the enemy team pounces on them. Those players don't tend to contribute much until it's too late due to their timidity, and give the class a bad rep.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 19 January 2018 - 10:39 AM.

[sycocys]

Bombast, on 19 January 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

Name two mech builds with spare tonnage and loose hard points.

I could give you a couple, but they don't have free (or enough free) crit slots, so your point still stands.

But just as an example, The Battlemaster-3M - many riggings would end up with either spare hardpoints, tonnage or slots. I use a CC instead of the alternative of 1 more DHS + 2 free tons doing nothing. But that mech is kind of an outlier among them on the IS side, quite a few of the clan pod combinations will leave you with unused hardponts, but their dhs system fills those gaps better.

[IllCaesar]

Bombast, on 19 January 2018 - 09:10 AM, said:

If you're in an Atlas and have a spare missile hard point for LRMs, you have goofed it up.

Yeah, instead you should use that extra 3.5 tons to take a STD 360. That 1.4KPH boost is really gonna make a big difference.

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It works a far better when the other mech is using something besides LRMs.

Yes, it does. That time doesn't always exist, specifically early on in the match when there's still a lot of land and cover between the target and the assault mech.

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Name two mech builds with spare tonnage and loose hard points.

Almost every Atlas that runs a 360. The S has the hardpoints and I know a lot of folks prefer running only 3 SRM4s/SRM6s like on the D-DC. The classic AC40 King Crab often has some leftovers depending on what you want to place as its energy weapons.

Luminis, on 19 January 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

The AS7 gets four missile hardpoints at most. So... You're telling me you'd rather forgo your forth A-SRM6 on a dedicated brawler so you can carry an LRM10 to spray fifty or so damage all over an enemy while you're closing in?

Not exactly just for random damage. You gotta know where to put them. Spreading fire randomly doesn't do much good. Besides, a fair amount of S builds prefer only three SRM4/SRM6 to run like the D-DC. A lot of players just prefer that. Also, you're kind of overlooking the fact that an Atlas with an effective range of 270m has an effective of 270m and frequently is going to spend a lot of time without the ability to engage effectively.

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Just imagine if that wasn't a piddly LRM salvo hitting the back armour, but, dunno, a bunch of laser beams, PPC projectiles or gauss slugs.

Just imagine if mechs could teleport or shoot straight through buildings and terrain too. As is we're stuck with assault mechs that are lucky to break 65 and can't engage or disengage at will, let alone engage in their effective range.

[Bombast]

sycocys, on 19 January 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

I could give you a couple, but they don't have free (or enough free) crit slots, so your point still stands.

But just as an example, The Battlemaster-3M - many riggings would end up with either spare hardpoints, tonnage or slots. I use a CC instead of the alternative of 1 more DHS + 2 free tons doing nothing. But that mech is kind of an outlier among them on the IS side, quite a few of the clan pod combinations will leave you with unused hardponts, but their dhs system fills those gaps better.

Well, you kind of headed off the next step - Does it have a spare missile hard point, and if so, can it fit more DHS. In the case of the Battlemaster, I think we're both in agreement that that furnace needs heat sinks way more than it could ever need an LRM.

IllCaesar, on 19 January 2018 - 11:20 AM, said:

Yeah, instead you should use that extra 3.5 tons to take a STD 360. That 1.4KPH boost is really gonna make a big difference.

No, you put an MRM/SRM in there to go with the rest of your SRM/MRMs. The Atlas boats a gun and missiles, and every Atlas uses every missile hard point, unless they run out of crits first (Which could only happen on a AS7-S with MRMs, really, and that's a weird choice).

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Yes, it does. That time doesn't always exist, specifically early on in the match when there's still a lot of land and cover between the target and the assault mech.

In such cases, either the light or the other mech are currently out of position for such a tactic.

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Almost every Atlas that runs a 360. The S has the hardpoints and I know a lot of folks prefer running only 3 SRM4s/SRM6s like on the D-DC. The classic AC40 King Crab often has some leftovers depending on what you want to place as its energy weapons.

Atlas's run big engines because they run out of hard points faster than tonnage. If you have a hard point on an Atlas for an LRM, you screwed up - Put an SRM or MRM in there.

EDIT: Oh, and the King Crab... SRMs man. Or maybe MRMs, haven't looked at the King Crab since new tech. Oh heat sinks since dual AC/20s are toasty. Don't put random LRMs in brawling mechs

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Not exactly just for random damage. You gotta know where to put them. Spreading fire randomly doesn't do much good.

LRMs spread quite a bit.

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Besides, a fair amount of S builds prefer only three SRM4/SRM6 to run like the D-DC. A lot of players just prefer that.

Even if a lot of people did prefer that, which I don't believe for a fraction of a second, that's not an argument for it being a good idea. The AS7-S has exactly one 'unique' trick (Per the chassis) up its sleeve - four missile hard points. Anyone intentionally ignoring that is squandering what little potential the mech has, not pioneering bracket build meta.

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Also, you're kind of overlooking the fact that an Atlas with an effective range of 270m has an effective of 270m and frequently is going to spend a lot of time without the ability to engage effectively.

This is one of the problems the Atlas has. It's not solved by diluting its already limited primary range profile. A single LRM, even a ALRM20, does nothing but make the Atlas weaker in the range bracket its naturally trying to get into.

Edited by Bombast, 19 January 2018 - 11:39 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

sycocys, on 19 January 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

I could give you a couple, but they don't have free (or enough free) crit slots, so your point still stands.

But just as an example, The Battlemaster-3M - many riggings would end up with either spare hardpoints, tonnage or slots. I use a CC instead of the alternative of 1 more DHS + 2 free tons doing nothing. But that mech is kind of an outlier among them on the IS side, quite a few of the clan pod combinations will leave you with unused hardponts, but their dhs system fills those gaps better.

I can give you several better uses for that tonnage, including targeting computers, less explosive engines, and upgrades to Large Pulse.

[Luminis]

IllCaesar, on 19 January 2018 - 11:20 AM, said:

Not exactly just for random damage. You gotta know where to put them. Spreading fire randomly doesn't do much good.

"Where to put them"? Are we talking about the same homing missiles that spread all over a target by default?

IllCaesar, on 19 January 2018 - 11:20 AM, said:

Besides, a fair amount of S builds prefer only three SRM4/SRM6 to run like the D-DC. A lot of players just prefer that.

Well, I gotta give you that. Going by what I see in QP, a lot of players seem to like running their 'Mechs with... Less than optimal builds. Bracket builds that excel at nothing, severely under gunned builds, that sort of stuff.

IllCaesar, on 19 January 2018 - 11:20 AM, said:

Also, you're kind of overlooking the fact that an Atlas with an effective range of 270m has an effective of 270m and frequently is going to spend a lot of time without the ability to engage effectively.

I'm not overlooking anything. If all a 100 tonner does outside of the 270m range is lob 10 LRMs, it still 100% needs to get into that 270m range to not be a complete waste of an Assault 'Mech. Putting that weight and the hard point to better use by running a role appropriate weapon nets you more damage overall.

So yeah. If someone can't bring brawling weapons to bear and is useless most of the time as a result, bringing a different load out in the first place is the better solution.

IllCaesar, on 19 January 2018 - 11:20 AM, said:

Just imagine if mechs could teleport or shoot straight through buildings and terrain too. As is we're stuck with assault mechs that are lucky to break 65 and can't engage or disengage at will, let alone engage in their effective range.

I spent a fair amount of time in a 48kph HGR Anni. Not getting direct fire weapons on target is a player issue.

But the whole bracket build discussion has been had a million times. Some people don't wanna learn and I guess it's okay.

[sycocys]

Just a personal perspective, especially given the recent boost to ams, I would never run a single LRM launcher that was under a 15. 10's maybe as a dual rig.

If you are running a 10 or a 5, you are vastly better off running an srm6 or srm4 package because ams and more importantly ecm will not stop them. Or one of the MRM/Rocket packages, but I personally don't care for them as much as srms.

Even mechs like the Zues that should perform quite well with several lrm15s on that wrecking ball arm, will do much better with 3 srm6s poking around the corner and right into the face of whoever it trying to peek back at you.

[The Basilisk]

gooddragon2, on 18 January 2018 - 08:43 AM, said:

From baradul's vids I get the impression that assaults should share armor and so they shouldn't be hanging back sniping. If that's the case, what's up with the Awesome (particularly the PPC variant)?

You realy hit a raw nerve of the community here.

On the one hand some Assaults are more fragile than some mediums.
On the other hand an Assault slot in your team possessed by a backstander/supporter/sniper Assault can be the doomed to loose verdict for a match.

On the one hand you could say that skirmishers like meds and fast heavys shoudl distract the enemy and break up its formation to make it possible for assaults to deliver the killing blow to he enemys game.
On the other hand the imposing presence and armor value of an assault can be a game changing aspect in early and midgame.

In the end it depends on the specific mech.
Since you can not controll the composition in PuG games regardless of QP or FP the discussion is useless and all demands that ppl have to play their mechs in a specific way are just a stupid way for some tryhards to say "yahaftaplaymawayornoway hurdur"

If you want to get organized with assigned roles and strategies get into comp channel or lobby and team up.

Edited by The Basilisk, 19 January 2018 - 11:59 AM.

[sycocys]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 January 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

I can give you several better uses for that tonnage, including targeting computers, less explosive engines, and upgrades to Large Pulse.

I run nearly everything with xl so that's a no-go right from the start, built most of my mechs before they released target computers (so that's a possible swap for the CC, though I enjoy the acquisition speed) and I use MPL because I like the ability to have two groups nearly never off cd even with that heat rating. LPL might do more damage, but it generates more heat and has the longer cd, which means you end up losing control of your target's positioning.

[Y E O N N E]

sycocys, on 19 January 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

I run nearly everything with xl so that's a no-go right from the start, built most of my mechs before they released target computers (so that's a possible swap for the CC, though I enjoy the acquisition speed) and I use MPL because I like the ability to have two groups nearly never off cd even with that heat rating. LPL might do more damage, but it generates more heat and has the longer cd, which means you end up losing control of your target's positioning.

You can do whatever you like, but I guarantee that any suggestion I were to give you would be an objective, empirical improvement over that build.

[sycocys]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 January 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

You can do whatever you like, but I guarantee that any suggestion I were to give you would be an objective, empirical improvement over that build.

It probably would be for the way that you play, this is the design that fits my style the best after a lot of trial and error with it.