325 replies to this topic

[Honeybadgers]

Luminis, on 21 January 2018 - 02:38 AM, said:

Got curious about the whole brawling thing. Went over to the MWO loadout simulator (quite the nifty tool, by the way) and and threw some Clan vs. IS brawlers at it...

Victor vs. Scorch:



Cyclops vs. MCII-2

I absolutely detest this kind of spreadsheet warrior mentality. THIS IS NOT WORLD OF WARCRAFT. SPREADSHEETS ARE NOT REAL WORLD INTERACTIONS AND NO MECHS BRAWL 1V1.

[Mcgral18]

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

I absolutely detest this kind of spreadsheet warrior mentality. THIS IS NOT WORLD OF WARCRAFT. SPREADSHEETS ARE NOT REAL WORLD INTERACTIONS AND NO MECHS BRAWL 1V1.

Naturally, YOU, specifically, know how MechWarriors Mechwarrior

https://leaderboard....?u=Honeybadgers


Yep...if you say so.
Clam Apologist

[Luminis]

justcallme A S H, on 21 January 2018 - 02:13 PM, said:

It's actually so insignificant I'm not even sure how PGI came to the conclusion to make these changes. It's almost like this is a "test' on the live servers for something greater.

I really wanna see how the hardcore Clam dudes respond to a nerf that's actually palpable. Like, one that really hits hard, like when many IS 'Mechs lost their quirks.

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

I absolutely detest this kind of spreadsheet warrior mentality. THIS IS NOT WORLD OF WARCRAFT. SPREADSHEETS ARE NOT REAL WORLD INTERACTIONS AND NO MECHS BRAWL 1V1.

Still beats QQing, even if it's done with capslock on.

/edit:
I mean, really, I know it's not the full picture or the be all, end all. But it at least has some substance.

That's a whole damn lot more than the diehard Clamers have been bringing to the table - namely a lot of hissing, screeching and whinging because their widdle precious feelings > anything objective or quantifiable.

Edited by Luminis, 21 January 2018 - 03:07 PM.

[Honeybadgers]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 January 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

Not even anything over 65 tons can really run a pair of HPPC that well. A cERPPC generates the same heat as an HPPC, but a Summoner runs 22-24 DHS to cool a pair. Even an HBK-IIC-A runs 20 DHS to cool them. A 65 tonner only gets ~17 DHS to cool a pair of HPPC, and an Assault only gets ~19, which is not much of an upgrade. Throw in the implications from all the other drawbacks, and you have a sub-par build.

And yet I can run two ERPPC on a hellspawn easily, a Heavy PPC on a vindicator easily, or two heavy ppc on an uziel, also easily. Are they the best meta builds? no. But they're very, very entertaining.

Mcgral18, on 21 January 2018 - 02:59 PM, said:

Naturally, YOU, specifically, know how MechWarriors Mechwarrior

https://leaderboard....?u=Honeybadgers


Yep...if you say so.
Clam Apologist

You're clearly the best person in the entire world and that completely invalidates my subjective opinion and raises yours onto the golden throne of goddamn mechwarrior royalty.

Bite me dude, take that argumentum ad hominem and blow it right out your ear. People like you are everything that's wrong with this game and why new players and casual players who have jobs and school and only play a few games a day if they're lucky have no interest in this game's toxic and elitist community past tier 2. I'm not ashamed of my stats. For a casual, I'm happy to keep a 1:1 KDR. I am always trying oddball builds because that's what makes this game fun for me.

Luminis, on 21 January 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

I really wanna see how the hardcore Clam dudes respond to a nerf that's actually palpable. Like, one that really hits hard, like when many IS 'Mechs lost their quirks.


Still beats QQing, even if it's done with capslock on.

/edit:
I mean, really, I know it's not the full picture or the be all, end all. But it at least has some substance.

That's a whole damn lot more than the diehard Clamers have been bringing to the table - namely a lot of hissing, screeching and whinging because their widdle precious feelings > anything objective or quantifiable.

Apart from the fact that no mechs 1v1, and if they are something has gone horribly wrong, I don't really know the algorithms used, but I suspect it's using these mechs in ideal situations and bouncing individual guns off the heat limiter. Yes, in theorycrafting a clan mech is still superior, but in practice, and in scouting, where the real weaknesses of our mechs are heavily exposed (I don't know about FW, but I tend to do very well when we're organized and very, very badly when we're not, so I'm not able to make a prediction) we tend to get steamrolled on even footing because we simply don't have the heat management to stay in the fight when our higher initial firepower is held against the quirked armor of IS mechs.

Also it doesn't take into account the longer duration that clan weapons have to deal their damage, three shells for a UAC10 spreads damage way, way more than the IS variant. Our lasers burn longer, further reducing pinpoint damage. That really hurts when ranges get close.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 21 January 2018 - 03:13 PM.

[Luminis]

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

Apart from the fact that no mechs 1v1, and if they are something has gone horribly wrong, I don't really know the algorithms used, but I suspect it's using these mechs in ideal situations and bouncing individual guns off the heat limiter. Yes, in theorycrafting a clan mech is still superior, but in practice, and in scouting, where the real weaknesses of our mechs are heavily exposed (I don't know about FW, but I tend to do very well when we're organized and very, very badly when we're not, so I'm not able to make a prediction) we tend to get steamrolled on even footing because we simply don't have the heat management to stay in the fight when our higher initial firepower is held against the quirked armor of IS mechs.

Also it doesn't take into account the longer duration that clan weapons have to deal their damage, three shells for a UAC10 spreads damage way, way more than the IS variant. Our lasers burn longer, further reducing pinpoint damage. That really hurts when ranges get close.

Multiple 'Mechs on both teams, so what?

The whole point to take away from these things is actually pretty simple: The claim that the IS durability quirks are too much to overcome in a brawl doesn't hold true. That's the argument brought forth as to why Clans need their lasers: Because they can't cut it with LBs and SRMs and stuff. You might not like these sims, but don't you think that's at least a little more substantial than me just telling you I've been ripping IS brawlers to shreds with the MCII-2?

Seriously, look at the threat and the others like it. I went and calculated the actual heat differences, try to go with as much objective stuff as I can reasonably come up with and y'all just keep screeching out arguments based on nothing but you getting your teeth kicked in by an IS 'Mech at some point.

Real classy man, real classy.

Oh, and one more thing. I might or might not agree with McGral's attitude regarding calling people out on their stats, but I have to admit that I, too, am feeling like there's a lot of players on here who are worse than they think they are, got carried by superior Clan tech and are now way pissef because a more even playing field, let alone a very slightly uphill battle, is exposing their shortcomings, which leads to some nasty outbursts.

Not that that's the case with you, but sure seemed like it with some guys on here.

Edited by Luminis, 21 January 2018 - 03:34 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

You're clearly the best person in the entire world and that completely invalidates my subjective opinion and raises yours onto the golden throne of goddamn mechwarrior royalty.

Bite me dude, take that argumentum ad hominem and blow it right out your ear. People like you are everything that's wrong with this game and why new players and casual players who have jobs and school and only play a few games a day if they're lucky have no interest in this game's toxic and elitist community past tier 2. I'm not ashamed of my stats. For a casual, I'm happy to keep a 1:1 KDR. I am always trying oddball builds because that's what makes this game fun for me.

Your opinion? You mean your lies

I've played very few matches over the past four months, hasn't stopped me from being competent at shooting robots

[Honeybadgers]

Luminis, on 21 January 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

Multiple 'Mechs on both teams, so what?

The whole point to take away from these things is actually pretty simple: The claim that the IS durability quirks are too much to overcome in a brawl doesn't hold true. That's the argument brought forth as to why Clans need their lasers: Because they can't cut it with LBs and SRMs and stuff. You might not like these sims, but don't you think that's at least a little more substantial than me just telling you I've been ripping IS brawlers to shreds with the MCII-4?

Seriously, look at the threat and the others like it. I went and calculated the actual heat differences, try to go with as much objective stuff as I can reasonably come up with and y'all just keep screeching out arguments based on nothing but you getting your teeth kicked in by an IS 'Mech at some point.

Real classy man, real classy.

I won't argue that the MCM2 and scorch are brutal, vicious, nasty, nasty mechs. You are dead right that they can hold their own. But I guess I should clarify that I'm a medium/heavy pilot, and the closest thing we have to a brawler is the orion 2c2. The only mechs we have that can hold their own are ballistic and missile vomit, and that's just not fun. at all. I do mixed builds, I like utilizing the hard points on a mech (I know it's less optimal but I dislike running dead side builds) so that leaves a lot of our mechs at serious disadvantages. The summoner can't really brawl, the hellbringer is going to lose its only solid brawl build (a heavy burn) the linebacker is already really heat critical, the timber can't run its medium pulse lasers anymore, the only good mid-range cauldron born is laser vomit, the ice ferret is getting railed because it's so over engined that it can't run anything but lasers (same for the viper) I love scouting so much, but I'm kind of shoehorned into a huntsman with missiles if I want to get any damage in without overheating (nova) or simply dying because my mech is made of paper maché and bunny farts (viper, arctic wolf)

So yes, if we're running nothing but our most meta of meta mechs, I guess your argument that clan is still valid is not that untrue. But jumping jesus on a pogo stick is it not. fun. at. all. I hated the meta in MW4 (6x ERLL on everything) and I hate how people play to win and start to lose sight of the fact that this is just a video game. It should be fun.

Mcgral18, on 21 January 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

Your opinion? You mean your lies

I've played very few matches over the past four months, hasn't stopped me from being competent at shooting robots

I'm done talking to you. You can't formulate any arguments that don't involve insulting me. Grow up. At least Luminis is trying to engage me in rational discussion.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 21 January 2018 - 03:36 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

I'm done talking to you. You can't formulate any arguments that don't involve insulting me. Grow up. At least Luminis is trying to engage me in rational discussion.

So, you refuse to make an argument, and throw a fit when someone calls you out on it?

Huh, strange place

[Luminis]

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

So yes, if we're running nothing but our most meta of meta mechs, I guess your argument that clan is still valid is not that untrue. But jumping jesus on a pogo stick is it not. fun. at. all. I hated the meta in MW4 (6x ERLL on everything) and I hate how people play to win and start to lose sight of the fact that this is just a video game. It should be fun.

I get that point.

Thing is, what's PGI to do? Let Clan meta builds dominate equivalent IS 'Mechs so you can do well in unoptimised builds? Always running meta's boring, fair point, but that's the same for both sides. Think a ML boating HBK-4P is a great 'Mech? The number of 'Mechs that can't compete with whatever build you throw at them is atrocious on both sides.

/edit: And since we're on the whole "X can't compete at Y" - believe me, there's NOTHING in the game that can compete with the Deathstrike at the 400 - 500 meter bracket. Literally nothing.

Edited by Luminis, 21 January 2018 - 03:40 PM.

[Honeybadgers]

Luminis, on 21 January 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:

I get that point.

Thing is, what's PGI to do? Let Clan meta builds dominate equivalent IS 'Mechs so you can do well in unoptimised builds? Always running meta's boring, fair point, but that's the same for both sides. Think a ML boating HBK-4P is a great 'Mech? The number of 'Mechs that can't compete with whatever build you throw at them is atrocious on both sides.

I guess I could be more constructive.

Buff armor on all sides to increase TTK and try buffing IS instead of nerfing clan. Buffs feel a lot less painful than nerfs, because nerfing my mech makes it no longer usable, but buffing yours keeps my mech usable, just brings yours up to fight it. I don't mind a fair fight, I just want to be able to enjoy my mech in that fight.

I've always felt the reason this game is balanced on such a razor's edge is because mechs are simply not tough enough. TTK needs to be higher. Also reducing mechs ability to make snap shots (not quite MW4 levels of sluggish, but a little less precise) would be helpful. that last one is definitely an iffy idea with the players though.

PGI are so terrified of power creep that they've gone in the extreme opposite direction.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 21 January 2018 - 03:43 PM.

[Luminis]

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

I guess I could be more constructive.

Buff armor on all sides to increase TTK and try buffing IS instead of nerfing clan. Buffs feel a lot less painful than nerfs, because nerfing my mech makes it no longer usable, but buffing yours keeps my mech usable, just brings yours up to fight it. I don't mind a fair fight, I just want to be able to enjoy my mech in that fight.

I've always felt the reason this game is balanced on such a razor's edge is because mechs are simply not tough enough. TTK needs to be higher. Also reducing mechs ability to make snap shots (not quite MW4 levels of sluggish, but a little less precise) would be helpfup.

Yeah, going with buffs instead of nerfs would make the pill of balance shifting between the factions a lot easier to swallow, I agree with that. I'd also go so far as to say that PGI probably needs to test their changes more thoroughly, ideally on a public test server and listens to the feedback.

I don't know whether TTK is the issue and off itself; my impression is that the biggest issue is that "equal but different" is really difficult to pull off if "different" can inherently be better or worse - like being good at midrange engagements, because they're so much more frequent than extreme range engagements at 1,000+ meters.

[Y E O N N E]

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

And yet I can run two ERPPC on a hellspawn easily, a Heavy PPC on a vindicator easily, or two heavy ppc on an uziel, also easily. Are they the best meta builds? no. But they're very, very entertaining.

The same thing is true for the Shadow Cat, though. A pair with up to 15 DHS. It's entertaining, but it's not very good. Two things about that, though. But, here's the rub:

1. If that Hellspawn is running in the same base speed range (like this), it's using an isXL which gets it killed when any one torso component goes. It also has two fewer jump jets and can't burst up to 120+ kph with MASC.

2. Neither that Hellspawn nor the Shadow Cat are really good 'Mechs for ERPPC; they may be fun, but the problems with balance don't occur in that area where we only care about fun, they occur when we try to look at maximum potential. An HBK-IIC-A can run a pair of cERPPC with 20 cDHS, A SHD-2K, at 5 tons heavier, can only do it with 18 at the same speed, 19 if you don't mind having one flapping about in an unarmored arm. Doesn't actually seem like a big disparity but, again, there is an isXL involved and those isERPPC do not do an extra 5 damage to adjacent components on each hit. A miss to one target is a major set-back compared to cERPPC.

[Honeybadgers]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 January 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

The same thing is true for the Shadow Cat, though. A pair with up to 15 DHS. It's entertaining, but it's not very good. Two things about that, though. But, here's the rub:

1. If that Hellspawn is running in the same base speed range (like this), it's using an isXL which gets it killed when any one torso component goes. It also has two fewer jump jets and can't burst up to 120+ kph with MASC.

2. Neither that Hellspawn nor the Shadow Cat are really good 'Mechs for ERPPC; they may be fun, but the problems with balance don't occur in that area where we only care about fun, they occur when we try to look at maximum potential. An HBK-IIC-A can run a pair of cERPPC with 20 cDHS, A SHD-2K, at 5 tons heavier, can only do it with 18 at the same speed, 19 if you don't mind having one flapping about in an unarmored arm. Doesn't actually seem like a big disparity but, again, there is an isXL involved and those isERPPC do not do an extra 5 damage to adjacent components on each hit. A miss to one target is a major set-back compared to cERPPC.

Fair points, really. But again, I don't talk about optimization or meta. And I do genuinely think the uziel can run 2 HPPC and be decent. And the hellspawn with 2 is actually better than you'd expect, but still most certainly below a scat since it loses masc and has to run an xl270 which gives about 100kph unskilled, 13 double heat sinks giving it about 1.34 unskilled, and manages five jump jets and ECM, which combines to be a surprisingly fun package.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 21 January 2018 - 04:13 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

So the facts and math came out a lot of the Clam Apologists seem to be, disappearing, in the fact of evidence. I just math'd this one up as well... Given the mech is tonnage limited pretty heavily and one I use a lot

6MPL LBK
Current
28.5 (10.5%) = 2.9925. Total heat = 25.5057

New
28.5 (8.4%) = 2.394. Total heat = 26.106

Total difference of 0.60 extra heat.

19cDHS is dissipating roughly 3.6 heat a second (off top of my head). That obviously does not include coolrun node buffs either.
So at ~3.6h/ps the 0.60 extra heat means it's taking an extra 0.17 seconds to cool off.

Not sure I'm gonna find .17 seconds to cool, MWO is too fast paced brah

Stephan T Warstrider, on 21 January 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

Now that the Clan erppc is a full second slower to cycle and runs hotter, can the supposed more advanced Clan erppc go at least as fast as the inner sphere counterpart why 1500 verses IS 1900 base speed? If not can I please use IS on my clan mech? ALSO when can Clan standard auto cannons start using single shot rounds? Nobody uses them for the extra space they take up if they can't shoot single shot what' the point?

1. Full second? Incorrect
2. It takes less than 0.20 seconds extra to cooldown

cERPPC is still more advanced than anything IS PPC, fact.

[Y E O N N E]

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

Fair points, really. But again, I don't talk about optimization or meta. And I do genuinely think the uziel can run 2 HPPC and be decent. And the hellspawn with 2 is actually better than you'd expect, but still most certainly below a scat since it loses masc and has to run an xl270 which gives about 100kph unskilled, 13 double heat sinks giving it about 1.34 unskilled, and manages five jump jets and ECM, which combines to be a surprisingly fun package.

We have to talk about the optimization, because that's where the imbalances appear and hit the hardest. We can sit here all day and come up with a sub-optimal build on one side and another sub-optimal build on the other that can match it, but in the end the IS builds hit a ceiling before the Clan ones do. The onus is on PGI to decide whether to buff one side or nerf the other, but with so many people continuously clamoring for "longer TTK" they have been leaning more toward the "nerf Clan" side.

Also, FYI, you can get 14x DHS into that Shadow Cat using ECM. Like so.

[Honeybadgers]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 January 2018 - 04:28 PM, said:

We have to talk about the optimization, because that's where the imbalances appear and hit the hardest. We can sit here all day and come up with a sub-optimal build on one side and another sub-optimal build on the other that can match it, but in the end the IS builds hit a ceiling before the Clan ones do. The onus is on PGI to decide whether to buff one side or nerf the other, but with so many people continuously clamoring for "longer TTK" they have been leaning more toward the "nerf Clan" side.

Also, FYI, you can get 14x DHS into that Shadow Cat using ECM. Like so.

I think the scat with 14 is going to overheat faster than the hellspawn, but that's neither here nor there, I wasn't actually putting a PPC hellspawn forward as a good mech the scat has better hardpoints and MASC.

I just want mechs to be fun and varied, and these nerfs just do nothing but shoehorn the meta harder and harder.,

[Y E O N N E]

Honeybadgers, on 21 January 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

I just want mechs to be fun and varied, and these nerfs just do nothing but shoehorn the meta harder and harder.,

That's a common complaint most of us have. The problem is Clan Lasers in combo with each other or in combination with cGauss and the inability for IS to mount similar levels of firepower at mid-range or even similar levels of cooling at any range. But instead of addressing that (by allowing larger IS volleys before ghost heat, improving IS DHS, or even nerfing Clan ghost-heat groups), PGI is hitting everything else. By hitting cERPPC, they force more people to laser vomit. By hitting cUACs, they force more people to laser vomit. Even on the IS side, they've nerfed HPPC, forcing more people to lasers, and they've kept hitting the heat on UACs for both Clan and IS...again forcing more people to lasers.

The Gauss+PPC ghost heat link by itself removed a lot of predators from the food chain, making lasers once again king.

It's a vicious cycle.

[Nema Nabojiv]

justcallme A S H, on 21 January 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

6MPL LBK
Current
28.5 (10.5%) = 2.9925. Total heat = 25.5057

New
28.5 (8.4%) = 2.394. Total heat = 26.106

Total difference of 0.60 extra heat.

well then we can all agree such a minor nerf can be safely canceled without any impact on the state of the balance.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Luminis, on 21 January 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

...damn lot more than the diehard Clamers have been bringing to the table - namely a lot of hissing, screeching and whinging because their widdle precious feelings > anything objective or quantifiable.

Make the Inner Sphere great again?

[justcallme A S H]

Nema Nabojiv, on 21 January 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

well then we can all agree such a minor nerf can be safely canceled without any impact on the state of the balance.

Yeah I don't really undertsand the point of it...

If it was to stop Clan Energy being strong, this is not de wae.