165 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Jingseng, on 20 January 2018 - 08:41 PM, said:

Hmm.

And if you applied MLB to little league (such as regulation distances, field dimensions) no kids are ever going to play little league ever.

Which means no one to join the mlb.

Dig?

Translating back, applying comp play to everyone else drives everyone else away.

That's why you keep little league and mlb separate. As you do mutatis mutandis in all other sports.

Speaking of which, why wouldn't you let the best player in a sport set the rules for that sport?

Maybe because their perspective isn't shared by the overwhelming majority of the players? Maybe because it doesn't necessarily make for an interesting game to watch or play? Maybe because the result is rules heavily skewed for the top skilled players?

The problem with that statement is that many of the players that play aren't that good. We're talking about not even basic competency level type of bad. We have people that don't even use LRMs properly and think they are OP. Sometimes that is the baseline PGI makes decisions off of.. and that's bad. We're not even discussing advanced level play type of balance... just basic.

If you are flawed at understanding basic stuff, it's like telling people a new kitchen appliance is "broken" when you haven't even read the manual that suggests "do not submerge in water" and you proceed to do that anyways and watch it not work.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 January 2018 - 12:22 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Luminis, on 20 January 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

2x cERPPC = 29 heat. 10.5 % heat gen = 25.955, 8.4 % heat gen = 26.564.

0.609 additional heat every time you fire dual cERPPCs.

People call the heat decrease on the LGauss stupid because nobody's gonna notice, but that's still a bigger change than the difference per cERPPC. Just for reference.

/edit: For further reference, not considering the skill tree, a SMN with 24 DHS dissipates 4.3 points of heat per second. Not considering Cool Run (which the SMN probably has in practice), the nerf adds an amount of heat equal to 0.142 seconds of heat dissipation on the premier Clan PPC carrier.

Yeah, the heat gen nerf is really gonna break the cERPPC. Confirmed.

Ah you ruined the fun part! Also assuming you never have to preposition to fire (who is dumb enough to poke the same spot repeatadly?). Enemy force is moving etc etc etc.

Ok so the math was fun (I've already seen it). But Kho doing it and realising that the number is so absolutely insignificant would've been brilliant.

Actually no, the justification for how it is still some epic nerf, that would've been brilliant.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 January 2018 - 12:27 AM.

[Deathlike]

justcallme A S H, on 21 January 2018 - 12:22 AM, said:

Ah you ruined the fun part!

Ok so the math was fun (I've already seen it). But Kho doing it and realising that the number is so absolutely insignificant would've been brilliant.

Actually no, the justification for how it is still some epic nerf, that would've been brilliant.

I know math is hard for some, especially for PGI.

Of course, that and statistical contexts. At least you can totally mischaracterize info with stats (like silly nerfs/buffs that do practically nothing in the grand scheme of things).

[justcallme A S H]

Yep - That good ole removal of the ASN 5% velocity quirk... Another token quirk in the first place as it literally did, nothing, in the actual real world game play/numbers.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 January 2018 - 12:28 AM.

[Luminis]

Fleeb the Mad, on 21 January 2018 - 12:12 AM, said:

EDIT: Erm, ninja'd apparently.

justcallme A S H, on 21 January 2018 - 12:22 AM, said:

Ah you ruined the fun part!

Ok so the math was fun (I've already seen it). But Kho doing it and realising that the number is so absolutely insignificant would've been brilliant.

Actually no, the justification for how it is still some epic nerf, that would've been brilliant.

We wouldn't be having this little debate if the guys throwing a fit were willing to do the math, so that wasn't gonna happen anyway

[Khobai]

Quote

So math out the heat increase. Right here, right now.

Show us how bad it is with the actual numbers and how much of a difference in percentage it's going to make.

Warning you though, people might laugh at you once you do and realise how minor it is. This change won't alter my cERPPC use one iota.

For a x4 CERPPC warhawk its about the same as losing two double heatsinks (a little less).

With 8.4% instead of 10.5%, each CERPPC generates 0.3 more heat, x4 CERPPC = +1.2 heat every 5 seconds (+2.4 heat every 10 seconds)

It will barely be noticeable but it will be noticeable nonetheless.

But this isnt the first time CERPPC has been nerfed within the last few months. Its been nerfed twice before in previous patches. So if they keep nerfing it a little at a time eventually it will get to the tipping point where it wont be worth using.

Its almost like PGI deliberately wants clans to only use lasers and gauss.

They have done nothing to fix other weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2018 - 02:00 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 01:51 AM, said:

It will barely be noticeable but it will be noticeable nonetheless.

And there we have it... A whole lotta fanfare about absolutely nothing.

Khobai, on 20 January 2018 - 11:26 PM, said:

You will see CERPPCs used less though.

Oh but don't forget ladies & gentlemen. You won't see cERPPC as commonly anymore.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 January 2018 - 02:15 AM.

[Luminis]

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 01:51 AM, said:

They have done nothing to fix other weapons.

Wait what?

PGI didn't nerf ERMLs and HMLs in October and ERLLs and the MGs in December?

[justcallme A S H]

Luminis, on 21 January 2018 - 02:14 AM, said:

Wait what?

PGI didn't nerf ERMLs and HMLs in October and ERLLs and the MGs in December?

Uh oh... Watch out, this thread is becoming far to factual/evidence based. We cannot have a bar of that.

End of the day this whole heat gen thing is a whole lotta hot air about a change that will be so minimal well over 90% of the player base won't even notice it. Especially with the dynamic nature of the game (ie, you are never standing still firing constantly, on every cooldown for mins on end).

There are far bigger issues with balance that need to be addressed and this absolutely tiny heat change does not really have much of an affect on that at this stage.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 January 2018 - 02:19 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

PGI didn't nerf ERMLs and HMLs in October and ERLLs and the MGs in December?

But clan players still use those weapons. They arnt using autocannons or missiles.

So they havent fixed anything to diversify what weapons clans use. Its still all lasers or sometimes laser/gauss.

They need to buff clan autocannons and clan missiles. Or clans will only keep using lasers and gauss. There is no incentive to use anything else.

Quote

And there we have it... A whole lotta fanfare about absolutely nothing.

the nerf was simply uncalled for. it nerfs CERPPCs more than it nerfs laser vomit.

there were better ways to nerf lasers without inadvertently nerfing CERPPCS too.

Quote

Wait what?

PGI didn't nerf ERMLs and HMLs in October and ERLLs and the MGs in December?

Quote

Uh oh... Watch out, this thread is becoming far to factual/evidence based. We cannot have a bar of that.

That only supports my argument that clan autocannons and missiles need buffs. Because despite multiple nerfs to lasers, clan players still use lasers almost exclusively.

Clan lasers arnt even all that great anymore. Its just the other options are far worse. And clan lasers still have a niche at midrange poking where they can deliver a high alpha with minimal facetime.

Clan autocannons are trash weapons. They jam way too often now and the facetime required to do the same damage as lasers is ridiculous because of the ghost heat restrictions.

Clans dont have any good missile weapons either sadly. Theyre all worse than the IS versions.

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2018 - 02:37 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

the nerf was simply uncalled for. it nerfs CERPPCs more than it nerfs laser vomit.

Not surprising you are once again you are totally incorrect.

Rock has already done something amazing, you know, the ACTUAL CALCULATONS

Clan Laser Vom actually takes a bigger hit in terms of increased heat depending on the laser selection and mech used. However overall it is still very, very minor due to cDHS boating.

The nerf was absolutely called for. However in the grand scheme what is happening with this change really is not going to change the landscape one iota. It should've been done differently however that is an entirely different discussion and one you probably can't get your head around if you can't see how minor this pass is overall.

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

Clan lasers arnt even all that great anymore.
Clans dont have any good missile weapons either sadly. Theyre all worse than the IS versions.

Clan Laser Vom will still be the premier choice. That is a indisputable fact - you have all the numbers nicely laid out for you. So lets hope they sink in.

IS Missiles suck as well. SRMs as a whole are in a terrible place. Clan or IS is irrelevant right now since the SRM past last time around which really slapped them far too hard.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 January 2018 - 02:51 AM.

[Baba Yogi]

Personally i mostly use lasers on clan mechs because there are not that many options for me for how i want to play the game. I hate both uACs and gauss because of the unwieldy horrible mechanics behind them. Gauss despite it being the most OP weapon system in the game (due to how heat works) i dislike its charging mechanic vehemently, and uacs because it doesnt feel good when you have to lead your target continously all the time. I mostly favored MPLs on my mechs because all the other lasers have too long of a duration to be efficient in any way. Most of the damage will go to locations you aren't firing at which to me has no value just like the cERPPc. I guess after the range nerf (which i think was the one thing Mpl desperately needed to be buffed), i'll just play with my Lbx mechs on clans. I dont mind the maximum range nerf on the MPL, but it requires 400-450m optimal range to be relevant as most engagements go around that range. Biggest problem to me about laserboats is that PGI just allows large weapons to be stacked with smaller ones for greater alpha. That is what we need to remove in order to stop the arms race.

Edited by Lordhammer, 21 January 2018 - 03:00 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Lordhammer, on 21 January 2018 - 02:52 AM, said:

have too long of a duration to be efficient in any way. Most of the damage will go to locations you aren't firing at which to me has no value just like the cERPPc.

You mean to say you cannot hold a laser burn on a component properly? That isn't the weapons problem, that is a player problem. I can hold dem burnz to tier up on a single component no drama in the world.

Suppose that explains why you can't lead shots with ballistics either. I mean I can lead and hit the legs of running Med @ 700m with cUACs no worries in the world. IS ones it's a little easier given less pallets but it's much of a muchness.

But again, most of the issues with weapons come from players. Not the weapons. Like you wanna stand still in a mech? I'll heatshot you with Gauss @ 600m no drama.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 21 January 2018 - 03:09 AM.

[Luminis]

Khobai, on 21 January 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

But clan players still use those weapons. They arnt using autocannons or missiles.

I see plenty ATM boats around, even though I, myself, don't like them. I see SRMs on anything brawly, like Splatdogs or Splatbackers or the Scorch and the Scorchcat Mk. II-2.

And just to prevent musings about OP IS durability quirks making IS Brawlers OP, here's a post from the Patch Note threat:

Luminis, on 21 January 2018 - 02:38 AM, said:

Got curious about the whole brawling thing. Went over to the MWO loadout simulator (quite the nifty tool, by the way) and and threw some Clan vs. IS brawlers at it...

Victor vs. Scorch:



Cyclops vs. MCII-2

Regarding UACs, MCII-B vs. Sleipnir:



Alternatives might be a little lacking at the lower end of the weight spectrum and yes, laser vomit is so good you've got little reason to not run it. But if we're looking at Clan ballistics and SRMs and stuff and compare it to the IS, it doesn't look that horrible. You'd certainly not be putting yourself in an inferior position (quite the opposite, on all the above simulations, the Clan 'Mechs typically go faster and / or carry more ammo).

/edit:
For the UACs, jams can throw the entire thing off, though, but using the "expected values" settings on the simulator evens that out; a trading match between two such 'Mechs is still likely gonna be decided by who's getting better luck with the jams, though.

Edited by Luminis, 21 January 2018 - 03:15 AM.

[HGAK47]

LT. HARDCASE, on 20 January 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

I'm 100% fine if they only ever listen to comp players. Who understands the game better than them?

Looking at the primary mechs used in the recent comp matches from around mechcon time, would it not be fair to assume that PGI should be buffing the hell out of all of those underused, forgotten mechs that rarely if ever get picked, let alone practiced with? Hell there are mechs that rarely even get used in QP. So many mechs need some loving.

Luminis, on 21 January 2018 - 03:12 AM, said:

a trading match between two such 'Mechs is still likely gonna be decided by who's getting better luck with the jams, though.

Aint that the truth.

[Doctor Dinosaur]

Using a simulator is such a PGI thing to do...

[Baba Yogi]

justcallme A S H, on 21 January 2018 - 03:07 AM, said:

You mean to say you cannot hold a laser burn on a component properly? That isn't the weapons problem, that is a player problem. I can hold dem burnz to tier up on a single component no drama in the world.

Suppose that explains why you can't lead shots with ballistics either. I mean I can lead and hit the legs of running Med @ 700m with cUACs no worries in the world. IS ones it's a little easier given less pallets but it's much of a muchness.

But again, most of the issues with weapons come from players. Not the weapons. Like you wanna stand still in a mech? I'll heatshot you with Gauss @ 600m no drama.

well, my opponents most of the time dont just stare at me with blank eyes to allow me to get full burns at one component. Flanks are only way to reliably do that (which means you already are beating the other guy). If you are saying that you can hit at one component at 500m for 1.5 seconds long every time then either he's example 1 or you are bullshitting. Thats why i like ISmeds or cMPLs duration is perfect, by the time enemy does torsotwist you've dealt most of your damage, and it is short enough to be used with jumpjets. You hit where you want to hit, no damage/heat wasted. And uac thing(like the gauss charge) is just a mechanic i hate never said i couldnt do it. Game is full of bad mechanics, pgi is adding more and more to "balance" instead of actual hardcap that would end all discussion forever. Energy Draw needs to come back, but instead of heat as a penalty just shutdown the mech before firing(since you tried to spend more energy than you have it is also logical to shutdown/not firing). That would literally end the arms race after a week of confusion and chaos. Noone here could argue ERMeds or HvLs or any other energy weapon system would be OP if you could not stack them with each other. But when you can stack them builds go nuts, technically we could have a mech that can do 108 damage alpha without triggering ghost heat.

Edited by Lordhammer, 21 January 2018 - 04:58 AM.

[Luminis]

Doctor Dinosaur, on 21 January 2018 - 04:16 AM, said:

Using a simulator is such a PGI thing to do...

Can't use comp because hurr durr not relevant to QP.
Can't use numbers because hurr durr still feels relevant.
Can't use simulators because hurr durr it's a PGI thing.

So, what do we use? Some salty Clam loyalist's QQ because his < 1 KDR is totally caused by OP IS 'Mechs, not his own shortcomings as a player?

[MischiefSC]

The loadout simulator is a nifty concept but worthless. It says the Deathstrike is no match for most LRM builds as an example. Even for brawling it shows things like the 9mpls MAD IIac getting crushed by all kinds of nutty builds.

There's no little league here. Are we saying bad players and casuals are like little children?

[sycocys]

All I know is that it would be terrible for the game if the comp players used more than a dozen different mechs and 2 different loadouts.

Edited by sycocys, 21 January 2018 - 06:55 AM.