165 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

There are no dead things that the competitive players don't care about.

[ShaneoftheDead]

My 2¢

Clan Skill Tree Heat Node nerf does seem rather trivial, but is a step in the right direction. That direction being the balancing of the laser vomit, where presently the benefits far outweighed the costs.

Light Gauss needed something. It was too heavy and volatile to really compete with the AC10 and UAC10. I will be interested in seeing what this change really does, if anything.

Heavy Gauss is OK, but this range increase is needed to really justify the weight and space for the weapon and the ammo. Do we know if this also affects it's Max Range? Most of the time you fire this weapon it is beyond optimal range and I am interested to know if the damage decrease was just pushed right or if it now has a steeper decrease. That and the Fafnir pre-order. This is where PGI steps into the grey area with regards to P2W.

Clan Medium Pulse Laser nerf also seems trivial but I'm willing to give PGI the benefit of the doubt here.

Clan ER PPC nerf is trivial and also a mitigation of the above Heat Node nerf. The extra time between shots is the time you need to dissipate the additional heat. Giving the enemy Mech .5 seconds additional time to run for cover does not seem like much. 60 kph = 16.667 mps, so your IS Assault gets about 8m. It will still get torn to pieces by the snipers and pop-tart builds before they close the distance. Let's say the Clan sniper is 800m out, your 60kph assault takes 31 seconds to close to 270m. That's 6.2 shots vs. 6.8 shots. Of course, you can't take part of a shot so there is no change.

The ASN quirk change is interesting as it is counter to all the IS quirk changes in the past of moving structure quirks to armor quirks. This is a disguised nerf. I believe it was needed.

For the SHD, I only have a 2H so I cannot speak to the others. I do not understand this change. The 2H is one of my best Medium Mechs and now it is getting a -15% cooldown on it's SRM4s to go with the ballistic? OK. Yes, the Skill Tree did hurt this Mech, but by grabbing many of the Cooldown nodes I brought it back a bit. This may make it my primary FP Scout Mech again.

[OrmsbyGore]

Bud Crue, on 20 January 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

For all intent and purpose the comp crowd is indeed the "end all, be all" of the game. Folks see what the comp folks do, and they emulate them. Those that emulate them the best win the most, and that trickles down. They help establish the meta and everyone copies them to their benefit or detriment, but everybody ends up mimicking them...or losing. If PGI is going to listen to anyone I hope it is the competitive crowd. Sure I would like them to also consider a wider swatch of the population but they can't; too much bias and too much loreholeing. At least the comp crowd's bias is based on what gives them the best chance of winning and that is a good bias in a game to have, and one that will benefit ALL players.

While I understand where you're coming from, I disagree with your sentiment. The top tier of players (the real comp players, not just those of us who are tier 1 on the xp bar) couldn't care less about balance or build diversity or fun, they are looking to do the same thing over and over again until they can do it 0.1% better than anyone else. Consistency is what they value; if that's what you want, then you will agree with the comp players. If you're looking for a varied gaming experience, however, you will disagree with what the comp players want.

In Magic:the gathering, WotC identified 3 main types of players (they eventually identified 6, but the first 3 are the ones that deal mainly with gameplay): Spikes, Timmys, and Johnnys.

Johnny combo player might find an analog in players who like to experiment with quirky builds that aren't really good but somehow work well for them - winning and losing are secondary to playing by their own unique style.

Timmys (like me) want to see interesting, varied game play with epic momentum shifts and dramatic finishes - winning or losing are secondary to having an awesome time.

Spikes, however, are the typical comp players in any game: they define fun as winning. As such, they will always use the M.E.T.A. (most effective tactic available) builds, and will always seek to do the same thing over and over again. That is fine, especially if you're playing against other Spikes, but since this game often matches the elite players with newer players, it creates a terrible experience for the less experienced players, especially since the game itself makes absolutely no effort to teach newbies how to play (and i mean more than a basic movement tutorial). Spikes also tend to loathe anything that shifts the meta away from what they've been practicing.

But my question is: if what you want out of this game is to hide behind chest high walls and shoot at targets you can barely see on the other side of the map, why do you have to do it in this game? Why can't you play one of the literally hundreds of other FPS games that let you do that? Those of us who actually want a Battletech game have no real choice

[Y E O N N E]

OrmsbyGore, on 22 January 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

While I understand where you're coming from, I disagree with your sentiment. The top tier of players (the real comp players, not just those of us who are tier 1 on the xp bar) couldn't care less about balance or build diversity or fun, they are looking to do the same thing over and over again until they can do it 0.1% better than anyone else.

Patently false.

[OrmsbyGore]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 January 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

Patently false.

Am i going to see the evidence that will convince me of the error of my ways?

[Verilligo]

OrmsbyGore, on 22 January 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

While I understand where you're coming from, I disagree with your sentiment. The top tier of players (the real comp players, not just those of us who are tier 1 on the xp bar) couldn't care less about balance or build diversity or fun, they are looking to do the same thing over and over again until they can do it 0.1% better than anyone else. Consistency is what they value; if that's what you want, then you will agree with the comp players. If you're looking for a varied gaming experience, however, you will disagree with what the comp players want.

In Magic:the gathering, WotC identified 3 main types of players (they eventually identified 6, but the first 3 are the ones that deal mainly with gameplay): Spikes, Timmys, and Johnnys.

Johnny combo player might find an analog in players who like to experiment with quirky builds that aren't really good but somehow work well for them - winning and losing are secondary to playing by their own unique style.

Timmys (like me) want to see interesting, varied game play with epic momentum shifts and dramatic finishes - winning or losing are secondary to having an awesome time.

Spikes, however, are the typical comp players in any game: they define fun as winning. As such, they will always use the M.E.T.A. (most effective tactic available) builds, and will always seek to do the same thing over and over again. That is fine, especially if you're playing against other Spikes, but since this game often matches the elite players with newer players, it creates a terrible experience for the less experienced players, especially since the game itself makes absolutely no effort to teach newbies how to play (and i mean more than a basic movement tutorial). Spikes also tend to loathe anything that shifts the meta away from what they've been practicing.

But my question is: if what you want out of this game is to hide behind chest high walls and shoot at targets you can barely see on the other side of the map, why do you have to do it in this game? Why can't you play one of the literally hundreds of other FPS games that let you do that? Those of us who actually want a Battletech game have no real choice

You've missed the point of the Spikes, I'm afraid. While at the core you've certainly laid out the gist of what competitive players are focused on, that is to say the meta, you've forgotten to account for the fact there can be more than one meta at a time. While Spikes aren't necessarily happy about their meta changing (a euphemism for being nerfed), in an expansive card game like Magic there are numerous meta tactics that can be adopted. You don't have to play the ONE deck, you can have counters, mixed builds, etc. When a single meta in Magic becomes so ubiquitous that there is no counter to it or means of playing that forces the opponent to play differently, that meta is either adjusted or another is created to balance the first.

Spikes actually love this, because the ultimate meta is actually the metagame which happens before you even set foot on the battlefield. Adjusting YOUR strategy to account for what your opponent BELIEVES your strategy to be. Everyone knows laser vom is meta. Everyone knows PPC Summies are meta. These things, among others, showed up in the championship. You know what else showed up? The Dragon 5N and Commandos. Those mechs were not expected and likely not practiced against, hence they ended up carving out some very powerful plays. Spike 1 beat Spike 2 in part because Spike 2 was not expecting a radically different meta. This made Spike 1 a very happy Spike.

MWO does not have nearly the number of options that Magic does for the simple fact that so many of those potential options have been shut off due to either crippling flaws in the base weapon or the mech that mounts it. The reason the Dragon 5N did so well is because it has this utterly incredible 40% jam chance reduction, the ability to mount 3 UAC2s, and the tonnage to support that loadout. The comp players want more Dragon 5Ns spread out across the available mechs and variants in the game. Why? Because it gives them a chance to surprise their opponents and beat their meta, rather than just matching them identically. That this makes the game more fun for them and the wider playerbase in general is a delightful bonus.

Edited by Verilligo, 22 January 2018 - 12:21 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

OrmsbyGore, on 22 January 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

Am i going to see the evidence that will convince me of the error of my ways?

Go to Twitch, follow Writhenn (an EmP member), and then sit in on some of his streams (which occur almost nightly). He often laments lyrically how XYZ is so useless, how the stuff that is good is way too good, and how it can be fixed.

You can also put some effort into your own education and peruse r/outreachhpg for threads discussing balance ideas and pick out the statements from the comp players.

And for my part, I was a comp player, briefly. Still am at heart, I just don't want to make the time commitment anymore. I do not want static engagements with the same five or six chassis using the same four guns across the board. That **** is dreadful.

Now, since you are the one making the assertion that comp players just want the old familiar stuff to stay on top, where is your evidence?

[OrmsbyGore]

Verilligo, on 22 January 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

You've missed the point of the Spikes, I'm afraid. While at the core you've certainly laid out the gist of what competitive players are focused on, that is to say the meta, you've forgotten to account for the fact there can be more than one meta at a time. While Spikes aren't necessarily happy about their meta changing (a euphemism for being nerfed), in an expansive card game like Magic there are numerous meta tactics that can be adopted. You don't have to play the ONE deck, you can have counters, mixed builds, etc. When a single meta in Magic becomes so ubiquitous that there is no counter to it or means of playing that forces the opponent to play differently, that meta is either adjusted or another is created to balance the first.

Spikes actually love this, because the ultimate meta is actually the metagame which happens before you even set foot on the battlefield. Adjusting YOUR strategy to account for what your opponent BELIEVES your strategy to be. Everyone knows laser vom is meta. Everyone knows PPC Summies are meta. These things, among others, showed up in the championship. You know what else showed up? The Dragon 5N and Commandos. Those mechs were not expected and likely not practiced against, hence they ended up carving out some very powerful plays. Spike 1 beat Spike 2 in part because Spike 2 was not expecting a radically different meta. This made Spike 1 a very happy Spike.

MWO does not have nearly the number of options that Magic does for the simple fact that so many of those potential options have been shut off due to either crippling flaws in the base weapon or the mech that mounts it. The reason the Dragon 5N did so well is because it has this utterly incredible 40% jam chance reduction, the ability to mount 3 UAC2s, and the tonnage to support that loadout. The comp players want more Dragon 5Ns spread out across the available mechs and variants in the game. Why? Because it gives them a chance to surprise their opponents and beat their meta, rather than just matching them identically. That this makes the game more fun for them and the wider playerbase in general is a delightful bonus.

excellent points regarding the repective metas. I guess there's some info I need to more accurately determine the variety in top level play, perhaps someone can steer me in the right direction: How many variants are there total in the game, and how many saw use in the MWOWC? How many saw regular use (say, 5 matches or more)? What loadouts did they bring (that is, did they bring a 65 tonner loadout on a 60 tonner to save 5 tons elsewhere in the drop deck, or is it a different build?) what is the breakdown of weapon systems used?

[InvictusLee]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 January 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

Battlemaster is the best ERLL trade 'Mech in the game, though...

explains why i havent killed bandito once. Though, its not like im after him or anything. Im just using him as an example cause He's that good. Ive also heard people taking out an LRM battlemadter and ****** fa ce so. Idk.

[Khobai]

Quote

The reason the Dragon 5N did so well is because it has this utterly incredible 40% jam chance reduction, the ability to mount 3 UAC2s, and the tonnage to support that loadout.

the dragon's gun arm also partially clips through the mech's torso and leg making it very difficult to hit

it's one of the few mechs that can run all its weapons in one arm without worrying about the arm getting shot off. because when half your arm is inside your mech its pretty hard to shoot it off lol.

people used freelook with dragons back in beta to clip its arm, thats not exactly new. Whats new is that the UAC2 made it offensively viable.

Quote

cause the ultimate meta is actually the metagame which happens before you even set foot on the battlefield. Adjusting YOUR strategy to account for what your opponent BELIEVES your strategy to be.

theres not really a whole lot you can do to counter laser vomit though.

its not like we have counter meta tech like reflective armor.

it would be nice if we had the actual tools to counter things. that would force the meta into a constant state of flux instead of being stagnant all the time. it would also punish players that only boat one type of weapon and encourage mixed loadouts.

if people start abusing certain weapons, other people will equip the counters to that weapon, and people will have to start using different weapons. a healthy meta has both a meta and a counter meta.

Edited by Khobai, 22 January 2018 - 01:38 PM.

[LordNothing]

the only thing disturbing about the patch notes is the lack of tweaks. there are a lot of things broken in this game (some debate about what those are though) and very few of those things get addressed on patch day.

[Verilligo]

Khobai, on 22 January 2018 - 01:27 PM, said:

theres not really a whole lot you can do to counter laser vomit though.

its not like we have counter meta tech like reflective armor.

it would be nice if we had the actual tools to counter things. that would force the meta into a constant state of flux instead of being stagnant all the time.

if people start abusing certain weapons, other people will equip the counters to that weapon, and people will have to start using different weapons. a healthy meta has both a meta and a counter meta.

I'm pretty sure the comp players would agree with you. Laser vom IS too powerful. I would say the question is how to make it less powerful, but we've already had plenty of input FROM comp players regarding how to make it less powerful and make other options more attractive. Instead, I'll have to say the real question is why we haven't tried any of said suggested options. I mean you'd think it would be a relatively simple matter to set up a test server with invites sent out to groups of individuals alongside internal studio testing.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 January 2018 - 12:36 PM, said:

Go to Twitch, follow Writhenn (an EmP member), and then sit in on some of his streams (which occur almost nightly). He often laments lyrically how XYZ is so useless, how the stuff that is good is way too good, and how it can be fixed.

You can also put some effort into your own education and peruse r/outreachhpg for threads discussing balance ideas and pick out the statements from the comp players.

And for my part, I was a comp player, briefly. Still am at heart, I just don't want to make the time commitment anymore. I do not want static engagements with the same five or six chassis using the same four guns across the board. That **** is dreadful.

Now, since you are the one making the assertion that comp players just want the old familiar stuff to stay on top, where is your evidence?

+1. He has no evidence. Just an uneducated opinion. Like many about this place.

I play with a LOT of the top players and the general consensus is right now, things have become stale. Fun and niche mechs don't exist like they did 6-12 months ago and since desync many have become flat out boring/useless to play.

Lights hardly play like lights should. Assaults now handle like a 1970 kombi..

All this stuff just means it's less interesting.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 22 January 2018 - 03:13 PM.

[Khobai]

Verilligo, on 22 January 2018 - 01:43 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure the comp players would agree with you. Laser vom IS too powerful. I would say the question is how to make it less powerful, but we've already had plenty of input FROM comp players regarding how to make it less powerful and make other options more attractive. Instead, I'll have to say the real question is why we haven't tried any of said suggested options. I mean you'd think it would be a relatively simple matter to set up a test server with invites sent out to groups of individuals alongside internal studio testing.

yeah I mean PGI has proven themselves incapable of balancing the meta

the least PGI could do is add counter meta tech. let the players take game balance into their own hands by reacting to the meta by equipping tech that counters the meta.

thats what games like league of legends try to do. instead of constantly balancing the game in endless circles they design every hero so it can be countered by another hero. and they leave it up to the players to counter the meta by giving them the tools to do it.

they should just add tech like reflective armor, blue shield, reactive armor, etc... that counter specific weapons. then let the meta sort itself out.

it punishes the meta for relying on one type of weapon. it punishes players for boating one type of weapon. it forces more diversity for both team loadouts and mech loadouts.

its just a matter of balancing the counter meta tech so its a soft counter and not a hard counter. making reflective armor reduce energy damage by 50% like in tabletop would be absurd. But 20%-25% would probably be reasonable.

Edited by Khobai, 22 January 2018 - 02:41 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

LoL is not a FPS.

Not is reflecting armour for certain weapons anything but a poor suggestion.

Let's move right along from yet another round of wildly silly points.

[CanadianCyrus]

Light Gauss cooldown buff will be interesting to see how that pans out. I would put removing the charge mechanic from the Light Gauss at a premium though.

Heavy Gauss buffs are appreciated, but they're not really needed as the Heavy Gauss (or more specifically Dual Heavy Gauss) was doing just fine in the 500 meters and closer bracket.

Clan MPL nerfs abound, if you're not a fan, then nag PGI to keep adding new tech. If the range disparity between IS MPL and Clan MPL is cause for nerfing one or other, then consider adding X-Pulse lasers. Just like when PGI was trying to fudge #s with the IS ML and Clan ER ML, the better option was to add IS ER MLs.

[Mcgral18]

Funzo, on 22 January 2018 - 03:35 PM, said:

Clan MPL nerfs abound, if you're not a fan, then nag PGI to keep adding new tech. If the range disparity between IS MPL and Clan MPL is cause for nerfing one or other, then consider adding X-Pulse lasers. Just like when PGI was trying to fudge #s with the IS ML and Clan ER ML, the better option was to add IS ER MLs.

Ah, yes

Nothing yells diversity like worthless equipment
Adding new stuff doesn't fix old stuff
Didn't with FutureTech™, won't with even more FutureTech2™

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

PGI only listen to feedback when it comes from comp players

They should do that more often, I'm sick of missile nerfs built on the angry squeals of the underhive, while comp players go "LOL guided missiles" and casually laservomit them to death.

But honestly, I don't believe it's much direct feedback at all. This is Chris's baby, even if it may make people wonder if his middle name isn't Rosemary.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

its not like we have counter meta tech like reflective armor.

Sure we do, it's just for missiles only- oh wait, those aren't meta.

Reflective armor would be a game-changer. Assuming PGI can apply it to the system.

[Khobai]

Quote

LoL is not a FPS.

whats that got to do with reflective armor?

reflective armor was in the other mechwarrior games too

its straight out of battletech canon

Quote

Not is reflecting armour for certain weapons anything but a poor suggestion.

how is it a poor suggestion?

it worked fine in the other mechwarrior games

it existed in battletech/other mechwarrior games for the exact reason of punishing laser vomit

I wouldnt make it 50% like it is in battletech, but 20%-25% would certainly be reasonable. Enough to put mechs that only carry energy weapons at a disadvantage. laser vomit mechs might actually have to *gasp* use mixed loadouts.

OH NOES I CANT WIN BY ONLY SPAMMING LASERS ANYMORE I ACTUALLY HAVE TO USE AUTOCANNONS OR MISSILES TOO. ITS THE END OF THE WORLD.

And for mechs that can only use energy you can give them a special quirk that lets them partially ignore reflective armor. Thats fair since they cant use anything else. But theres only a few mechs that can only use energy.

Edited by Khobai, 22 January 2018 - 05:50 PM.