374 replies to this topic

[Jarl Dane]

Rescale, Skill-Tree, Engine Desync, Wide-scale weapon nerfs all come together to ruin as many play-styles as possible and force us to live in a clan laservomit hellscape.

Or, more likely, force all your friends to play different games.

THIS MUST STOP


Make MWO Fun again!

Reddit Discussion Link

EDIT: Russ has responded on Twitter.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 28 January 2018 - 07:27 AM.

[process]

Some of those things aren't bad concepts, they're just poorly executed. Skill tree could be streamlined with free respecs. Certain chassis could have their agility improved. Certain oversized mechs could be better compensated with quirks.

If only PGI would actually do something about that.

[FupDup]

process, on 26 January 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

Some of those things aren't bad concepts, they're just poorly executed. Skill tree could be streamlined with free respecs. Certain chassis could have their agility improved. Certain oversized mechs could be better compensated with quirks.

If only PGI would actually do something about that.

That's a really, really big if.

[justcallme A S H]

That was one of the crappiest starts to a video you've done!
I didn't think you could get any worse


On a more serious, less taking to the urinal note - I 100% agree.
MWO has been "balanced" into a stale mess. That isn't even balanced.

• Desync... ugh
  
• Assault brawling... ugh
  
• Lights (for the most part)... ugh.
  
• Niche / Fun mechs? (Locust 1V anyone???)... ugh.
  
• SRMs nerfed again... ugh
  
• IS and cSPL nerfs... SILLY! It should've been 5dmg for cSPL not 4dmg also with IS SPL getting a buff, not a nerf... ugh.
  
• Skill Tree was a "customise your mech how you want"... Except... You can't. You are forced (on average) to take 25 nodes you do not want. That is not customising how you want, that is being totally mislead.
  
• Recale... I'm not gonna get started.

I could go on.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 26 January 2018 - 06:40 PM.

[Khobai]

wed be better off if they just deleted the skill tree and started over

the skill tree has completely lost its way and fails to do the one thing that skill trees are meant to do: diversify playstyles.

the skill tree actually does the opposite of diversify. because when everyone puts their points into the same skills it actually makes all mechs play more similarly.


instead of one generic skill tree, there shouldve been multiple skill trees based around specific roles

each mech shouldve been pre-assigned a role like brawler, skirmisher, harasser, fire support, etc....

and each role should have its own unique skill tree

that would differentiate mechs so much more than what we have now. and it would bring multiple playstyles back to the game again.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 06:59 PM.

[Jarl Dane]

justcallme A S H, on 26 January 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

That was one of the crappiest starts to a video you've done!
I didn't think you could get any worse

Greatest. Intro. Yet.

..more like.

[El Bandito]

Mech The Dane, on 26 January 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

Rescale, Skill-Tree, Engine Desync, Wide-scale weapon nerfs all come together to ruin as many play-styles as possible and force us to live in a clan laservomit hellscape.

Community wanted rescale, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted engine desync, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted new skill tree, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted info warfare, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted power draw, just not the way PGI had implemented.

See a pattern here?

Edited by El Bandito, 26 January 2018 - 06:58 PM.

[Jarl Dane]

El Bandito, on 26 January 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

Community wanted rescale, just not the way PGI implemented. Community wanted engine desync, just not the way PGI implemented. Community wanted new skill tree, just not the way PGI implemented. Community wanted info warfare, just not the way PGI implemented. Community wanted power draw, just not the way PGI implemented.

See a pattern here?

Absolutely. I've brought that up in the reddit discussion, and to a degree in the video as well. These are things we wanted, for the most part. But the poor implantation...ugh.

The real kicker though is PGI's inability to tweak them. There are tons of things they could have done with Skill Tree, Engine Desync, and Rescale that would have all made them positive for us. Instead they just throw them out there and move on.

PGI about lost their mind when we made them remove Long Toms, or fix their terrible mini-map update. Small, simple things; backtracking or at least fixing these huge issues seems worryingly insurmountable.

[Khobai]

there was nothing wrong with the concept of engine desync. having agility based on tonnage rather than engine size made perfect sense.

until PGI tried to use it as a way to balance IS and clan tech by making clan mechs pilot like garbage trucks

what the community wanted was all mechs of a given tonnage to have consistent agility.

I mean there couldve been some allowances for mechs that were supposed to be more or less agile but for the most part it shouldve stayed within a 10-15 ton difference of the baseline.

what we ended up with was an inconsistent mess, ridiculously agile outliers, and a whole bunch of nerfed clan assaults and heavies that cant torso twist at all.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 07:10 PM.

[Asym]

justcallme A S H, on 26 January 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

MWO has been "balanced" into a stale mess. That isn't even balanced.

• Desync... ugh
  
• Assault brawling... ugh
  
• Lights (for the most part)... ugh.
  
• Niche / Fun mechs? (Locust 1V anyone???)... ugh.
  
• SRMs nerfed again... ugh
  
• IS and cSPL nerfs... SILLY! It should've been 5dmg for cSPL not 4dmg also with IS SPL getting a buff, not a nerf... ugh.
  
• Skill Tree was a "customise your mech how you want"... Except... You can't. You are forced (on average) to take 25 nodes you do not want. That is not customising how you want, that is being totally mislead.
  
• Recale... I'm not gonna get started.

I could go on. (Please do ! You've just started !!!)

TARGET........CEASE FIRE... Driver move out, Gunner Take Over....

Bait and Switch sales Gimmicks: Yep !
Nerfing to appease specific groupos: Yep.

Let's add a few more.

[Sigmar Sich]

I agree on most of points in the video. Though i highly disagree on mixed tech idea, it would be just a capitulation, a confession of failure to balance the game.

What PGI should do, in my opinion:
1. Reorganise the development: remove certain unqualified persons from making/overriding gameplay decisions and assign this responsibility to qualified gamedesigner. Some people think everyone can do good gamedesign decisions, and most importantly - good implementations. So not true.
2. Make few internal roundtables to identify problems. Make external roundtables too, make thoroughly moderated suggestion threads and polls. Make community managers earn their pay for once.
3. Gather internal meetings to filter all the feedback. Gather gamedesign team to choose right direction and develop solutions.
4. Think not only about problem solving, but also about improving other features. Do not be afraid to cut obsolete features, do not be afraid of big gamedesign changes. Maybe come up with new features.
5. Implement new solutions on the test server. Fix mistakes, and then go live.
____________________

In my opinion, biggest problems of the game are following:
A) Poorly implemented maze of a skill tree, both % values (reinforcing only strong side, and not really able to compensate weak side) and form of a maze. Cut nodes quantity in half, refund spend nodes as legacy points (we already have those coded). Rework form, to make skill tree easier to read. For example SWTOR

Spoiler

Rebalance values to get rid off junk nodes.

B ) Poorly designed features.
- ECM-LRM hard counters "feast or famine". Make indirect LRM fire more like in Battletech game by HBS, to be an inprecise bombardment. Then remove the lock-on hard counter by ECM, which instead should increase lock-on time (same as you lockon now on ECM mech under UAV).
- SHS v DHS. Make DHS good at dissipation, but with same heatcapacity as SHS. Cut down base heatcapacity of mechs. So for faster cooling and sustained fire you can use DHS, but for hot alphas you could try to boat SHS to increase heatcapacity to levels higher than IS DHS can provide.
- Weapon specific quirks. Get rid of this crap. Especially when it makes no sense, like for example MPL quirks on Thunderbolt 5SS, who have no MPLs in original design. Whos sick mind thought that forcing one single viable loadout onto a mech was a good idea, i do not know.
- Mech quirks overall. Stop fixing this mess, just scrap it and rework from the scratch. Read TROs to understand what mech is supposed to be. Make quirks to reflect those "personalities" and roles (we do see some steps in this direction, but really small ones). Do not repeat this crap that initial quirks were, when mechs got quirks for a single loadout, most often inappropriate.
- Mech quirks and balance. Do a thorough analysis of mechs. Compensate with quirks next cases: bad hitboxes, bad hardpoint placement, mixed hardpoints types, maybe even cockpits with bad visibility.
- Consumables. Get rid off them. Rework them into physical items to take space and weight in the loadout. Sort of like MW4M Mektek had it.
- CW. Balance aside, make the strategic layer more fun. Return factions. Make loyalty points as currency for something, even if only to buy your faction-specific mechs.
- other stuff, but this thoughts depress me too much to continue writing... What a marvel this game could have been.

Edited by Sigmar Sich, 26 January 2018 - 07:49 PM.

[r4zen]

PGI PLS

I ended my boycott of giving you money

send halp

[Johnathan Tanner]

Mech The Dane, on 26 January 2018 - 06:51 PM, said:

Greatest. Intro. Yet.

..more like.

[Kin3ticX]

Awesome vid, here are my thoughts on Laser vom and PPFLD.

In the [forums ], PPFLD is basically the great satan. In recent patches they have hit the HPPC and the ERPPC. Baseline HPPC is meh now unless fired from the Treb7k or something else with significant cooldown quirks. I dont think I saw one HPPC in MWOWC either so im guessing its just too heavy for what it is or some other reason.

Looking at my own stats, I have a 70% hit rate with my HPPC which means per shot fired, I am only getting 10 damage downrange due to missing and firing beyond optimal.

I am much better with hitscan because I have a 90% hitrate with my Heavy Large Lasers and I am doing 15 damage per shot (meaning I am only losing 3 damage).

This is just one example but my theory behind why PGI plays to laser vomit is because it skill scales better than projectiles. The poptart meta from 2013-2014 was not as inclusive because a miss is a 100% miss wheres you can correct to get partial damage with burns.

While I think it takes more skill to hold a burn on a mech than spamming LRMs, lasers are still more newb friendly than PPCs and Gauss Rifles. Also, the Gauss PPC link is kind of annoying since it wasnt even top meta when they banned the combo. If I have to chainfire gauss peep combos I might as well laser vomit my way around, its easier anyways. Not only that, but nerfing Gauss PPC combos removed a predator from the playing field, even if it wasnt the apex predator when it was removed.

TLDR. The long lasting laser vomit meta in the context of solo queue but other places as well is 100% intentional because they are playing to the lower common denominator, a tune which Gauss and PPC doesn't play.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 26 January 2018 - 08:46 PM.

[Xmith]

El Bandito, on 26 January 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

Community wanted rescale, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted engine desync, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted new skill tree, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted info warfare, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted power draw, just not the way PGI had implemented.

See a pattern here?

Yeah I do. The community is never satisfied. It's there way or it's DOA.

Edited by Xmith, 26 January 2018 - 08:42 PM.

[El Bandito]

Xmith, on 26 January 2018 - 08:41 PM, said:

Yeah I do. The community is never satisfied. It's there way or it's DOA.

PGI actually went out of their way to satisfy neither side of the community. That took incredible incompetence.

[El Bandito]

Kin3ticX, on 26 January 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

Looking at my own stats, I have a 70% hit rate with my HPPC which means per shot fired, I am only getting 10 damage downrange due to missing and firing beyond optimal.

I am much better with hitscan because I have a 90% hitrate with my Heavy Large Lasers and I am doing 15 damage per shot (meaning I am only losing 3 damage).

Biased comparison IMO. Even though your HPPCs have 70% hit rate--which is actually better than average--those hits front load all the damage onto the same section of the enemy mech. Meanwhile your 90% accurate HLLs will be spreading all the damages onto multiple sections due to its long *** duration.

So apples and oranges.

[Kin3ticX]

El Bandito, on 26 January 2018 - 09:07 PM, said:

Biased comparison IMO. Even though your HPPCs have 70% hit rate--which is actually better than average--those hits front load all the damage onto the same section of the enemy mech. Meanwhile your 90% accurate HLLs will be spreading all the damages onto multiple sections due to its long *** duration.

So apples and oranges.

but i have like 500 matches with HLL and 70 matches with HPPC. Should be the other way around.

[ROSS-128]

While we're at it: nuke escort mode from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[Jarl Dane]

ROSS-128, on 26 January 2018 - 09:24 PM, said:

While we're at it: nuke escort mode from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Is there anyone who likes it?