374 replies to this topic

[Burke IV]

Any skill tree will be an anchor. There is no way any skill tree is ever going to diversify builds. Its a good video, the game was much better before all this.

I seemed notice there was no mention of LRMs being nerfed. Always down on the LRMs

[Y E O N N E]

The skill tree doesn't diversify builds because it isn't a trade-off system. I give nothing up to get better laser duration over Nooby McScrublord and his stock 'Mech over there, it's just a straight upgrade and the straight upgrades are obvious.

Heavy Gear 2's Perk/Drawback system is a much better fit for this game.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 27 January 2018 - 10:52 AM.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 January 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

The skill tree doesn't diversify builds because it isn't a trade-off system. I give nothing up to get better laser duration over Nooby McScrublord and his stock 'Mech over there, it's just a straight upgrade and the straight upgrades are obvious.

Heavy Gear 2's Perk/Drawback system is a much better fit for this game.

Well, in theory those upgrades are supposed to compete against each other. In practice though some of the upgrades are a lot better than others...

[FireStoat]

Edit - wrote a long post that no one wants to read so I'll sum it up.

PGI made mechs that I purchased with real money in an effort to support the company NOT FUN to play from nerfs that put them near the bottom of performance for their weight class. I literally would have been better served buying free-to-purchase choices with Cbills that had already seen their 'balance' passes and were left alone.

PGI's skill tree and engine decouple + multiple laser nerfs drove thousands away from this game. Steam numbers have proven this, there's no argument involving it, so that's that.

The free Sun Spider hero will be fun and I will play it.
HBS Battletech will be my new home largely because the company has a full staff of people dedicated to their reputation as well as their product. Peace.

Edited by FireStoat, 27 January 2018 - 11:22 AM.

[TWIAFU]

El Bandito, on 26 January 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

Community wanted rescale, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted engine desync, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted new skill tree, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted info warfare, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted power draw, just not the way PGI had implemented.

See a pattern here?

Original vision hardly ever resembles final implementation.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Mech The Dane, on 26 January 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

force us to live in a clan laservomit hellscape.

InnerSphereNews, on 19 January 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

Heat Gen Nodes

IS and Clan Heat Gen Nodes now have separate values in the Firepower Tree.

Inner Sphere values remain unchanged.

• -0.75% per Node.
• -10.5% total.

Clan values have been adjusted to the following:

• -0.6% per Node (down from -0.75%).
• -8.4% total.

[FupDup]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 27 January 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

[/size][/font]

The Clan builds that vomit huge alphas from mid to long range are less affected by this because they're already spending a lot of downtime hiding in cover. Meanwhile, the Clan builds that want to be more aggressive are gonna feel the skill tree nerf more because they tend to fully commit to fights.

There's also just the general problem of trying to balance the tech bases with the skill tree instead of modifying the tech itself. The skill tree should be a neutral entity that does not pick favorites.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 27 January 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

Well, in theory those upgrades are supposed to compete against each other. In practice though some of the upgrades are a lot better than others...

Doesn't matter, though, because they leave the un-skilled 'Mechs in the dust in every category.

As if the NPE needs that...

[Khobai]

they should get rid of the current skill tree

switch over to role based skill trees with significantly less skill nodes but skill nodes that evoke actual choices

by significantly reducing the number of skill nodes it should improve the NPE too


so instead of one big generic skill tree youd have six or so different role trees (brawler, sniper, skirmisher, assault, etc...). every variant would be assigned a role and thats the skill tree they would get.

each role's skill tree would only have around 30-40 skill nodes (there would be both unique skills for each role and generic skills that all six roles share)

and youd get like 20 points to put into each role tree.


it would massively simplify the skill tree and bring diversity back to the game

Edited by Khobai, 27 January 2018 - 11:38 AM.

[Sjorpha]

I agree with the general message, there are some of those changes that I like despite the flaws though.

Engine desync, I really like this change. It's true that some mechs have the wrong agility and should be changed, but it's also true that slow assaults like the Annihilator and King Crab, and slow Heavies like Marauder BH etc, became viable mechs because of this change. Low engine ratings are much more workable because of this change, and this is especially good for IS mechs that can better deal with the smaller engines they have to use to match clan firepower. I think on balance the engine desync was a good thing, and it's more a matter of pushing for agility buffs where needed.

Medium laser cooldown increase, in hindsight I actually like this. Sure the IS mediums didn't need a nerf, so now they need some kind of buff, but in principle this change has created stronger niches for low cooldown lasers, increased the relative DPS of pulse lasers and made the cooldown a real consideration when choosing weapons, at least on the IS side. I'm all for balancing the IS and clan lasers better so clan vomit stops being dominant, but I like having the more distinct cooldowns to separate the roles of different lasers.

Rescale, I'd say the main problem there was that it came with a massive blanket quirk nerf to most IS mechs for no apparent reason. I'm not sure it was actually a bad idea in itself to move to volumetric scaling, but not dealing properly with the consequences was surely a very big problem. For example some mechs that got bigger also simultaneously got a quirk nerf, like for example the grasshopper, where any reasonable person would instead have buffed the quirks on all mechs that got bigger in the rescale, and buffed them more or less depending on how big the scale change was. So a reasonable person would for example have given significant quirk increases to the Jenner in that patch.

Skill tree, that's a tough one. I wouldn't want to go back to the old system actually, but sure the design is horrible with 4 times as many nodes as there needs to be and the weird obsession with forcing people to take weak nodes to get to the strong ones instead of just balancing the nodes properly so that the choices are free but hard to make.

There is also the problem with PGI never having stated what they actually want in regards to balance. We don't actually know if they are trying to balance IS and Clan tech or not for example. So the community is forced to discuss balance without a reference point in any expressed goals. That makes the whole conversation so much more salty.

[C E Dwyer]

First off

Well done Dane, it needed saying.

El Bandito, on 26 January 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

Community wanted rescale, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted engine desync, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted new skill tree, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted info warfare, just not the way PGI had implemented. Community wanted power draw, just not the way PGI had implemented.

See a pattern here?

The community calls for things that need altering removing or changing.

P.G.I manage to introduce these things extremely badly, usually making the game worse.

Because spread sheet warriors, ruin pretty much everything, not just games, and their only defence is the statistic's say it's right.

[C E Dwyer]

Mech The Dane, on 26 January 2018 - 09:27 PM, said:

Is there anyone who likes it?

I can't honestly say I like playing it,(Escort) but most of it's failings are caused by the people playing it.
I'd rather play it than either Frozen or Grim domination.

Edited by Cathy, 27 January 2018 - 12:09 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

There is also the problem with PGI never having stated what they actually want in regards to balance. We don't actually know if they are trying to balance IS and Clan tech or not for example.

if pgi is trying not to balance IS vs clan theyve done an excellent job of it

*applauds*

[Burke IV]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 January 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

The skill tree doesn't diversify builds because it isn't a trade-off system. I give nothing up to get better laser duration over Nooby McScrublord and his stock 'Mech over there, it's just a straight upgrade and the straight upgrades are obvious.

I thought it was all trade off. That why people seek the "best" rout thru it. People start to make builds that avoid the trade off. It cant ever wrok in any form unless it was so totally complex is can cater to every possible build.

[ROSS-128]

Sometimes it does seem like PGI is one of those genies that will grant your wish... but always make sure to do it in a way that will make you regret it.

"You want a re-scale? Alright let's just make these already under-performing mechs bigger..."

[Khobai]

Quote

The skill tree doesn't diversify builds because it isn't a trade-off system. I give nothing up to get better laser duration over Nooby McScrublord and his stock 'Mech over there, it's just a straight upgrade and the straight upgrades are obvious.

thats why they need to get rid of the skill tree and replace it with role based skill trees instead


then if you want range/velocity upgrades you have to play a mech with the fire support/sniper role

which means giving up cooldown/heatgen skills that a mech with the brawler role gets

and giving up the beam duration/agility skills that a mech with the skirmisher role gets


it forces you to choose a mech with the role you want to play and each role has a different playstyle with its own strengths and weaknesses

then we have mech diversity again instead of everything being the same

Edited by Khobai, 27 January 2018 - 12:39 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 27 January 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

thats why they need to get rid of the skill tree and replace it with role based skill trees instead


then if you want range/velocity upgrades you have to play a mech with the fire support/sniper role

which means giving up cooldown/heatgen skills that a mech with the brawler role gets

and giving up the beam duration/agility skills that a mech with the skirmisher role gets

Heat gen is probably the most important skill in the game for every single loadout and role possible because this game makes 90% of the weapons generate extremely high heat, so people would be inclined to take "brawler" mechs equipped with mid to long range guns instead of proper sniper mechs.

[Davegt27]

I been going through a lot of pod casts

and Karl Berg said when they tighten up the match maker it resulted in more stomps

he said he did not have time to study the data to come up with a reason why

but I can take a stab at it

back in my high school football days after each game we received a numbered score
for example 85% meaning according to the coaches you operated at 85% of your potential

applying that mentality to this game a player (high elo) operating up near 95%
well his/her value to the team is pretty high

now get a team with a lot of high elo players when they do loose that player due to death
then that players loss has greater effect on the team then would a lower elo player

so in reality you want more of a mix of players in your matches
JMTCW

[Khobai]

Quote

Heat gen is probably the most important skill in the game for every single loadout and role possible because this game makes 90% of the weapons generate extremely high heat, so people would be inclined to take "brawler" mechs equipped with mid to long range guns instead of proper sniper mechs.

exactly. theres not really any reason not to take heat skills. so all the heat skills should just be rolled into the base profile of all mechs.

and the brawler role would get access to additional heatgen skills on top of that

a lot of the skills should just be given to us for free because theyre so good theres no reason not to take them. or theyre so bad theyre not worth spending points on.

the only skill nodes that should actually exist are ones that are actual choices.

Edited by Khobai, 27 January 2018 - 12:52 PM.

[nehebkau]

Let me be concise. Things have gotten so far in the 'meh' range that I have been actively looking for a new 'primary' game. As a avid fan and whale who has been very free with their disposable income, that should worry PGI.