124 replies to this topic

[Ivor]

Hazeclaw, on 30 January 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

Why are you so surprised and angry that when you choose to avoid fighting the enemy who came looking for a fight they call you out on it? If you're going to objective rush you should expect some unhappy players to voice their opinion, just like how there's plenty of opinion and hackusations being voiced about scary supervillain premade PAWGs who apparently live off the misery of poor innocent trial stalker baby seals

But not everyone shows up for a fight, necessarily. Some people show up to win a match by using whatever tactics are necessary. It's differing outlooks. Complaining about it doesn't help anyone other than raising the salt level. Ultimately, the game allows you to win either way. If the game was entirely skirmish, it wouldn't be much fun. Hell, even CoD/Battlefield is adding objective modes. I guess at least they have buckets for who wants to play what though.

[UnKnownPlayer]

I sit in the middle of this one.

If you get games against people that bring deliberate objective tactics then you can have some really deep gameplay, a lance on the flank trying to draw you away from the base, 2 lances coming in the other side, who do you engage? How do you set yourself up to defend? rolling levels of defence with long range in the rear, fall back positions, counter pushes, focusing specific mech types or players etc.
It provides a much more strategic and enjoyable game if BOTH teams are focused on objectives.

Because most teams are not focused on objectives you end up bringing mechs and tactics to counter what is effectively skirmish, again, and again, and again. It gets boring quickly enough and we end up doing stupid stuff to entertain ourselves like double urby double annihilator, silly token LRM builds, doing Jens Bonde in game theater with ducks and ducklings, SWAT teams and the police.

Normally we will play for kills for the first 2 waves, if stuff goes south we might consider running objectives, as hobbles says but otherwise we tend to play for the kills because of the all whining in game. OF course then people whine wehn we farm drop zones so meh.

I would prefer to have more objective focused games even as defender as it tends to make the games more tense and interesting, but it feels like many teams just don't want to learn something new or they are afraid of losing with a different play style, are afraid to try etc. hence the complaints when you take gens out.

Just my 2 cents.

[K O Z A K]

Ivor, on 30 January 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

But not everyone shows up for a fight, necessarily. Some people show up to win a match by using whatever tactics are necessary. It's differing outlooks. Complaining about it doesn't help anyone other than raising the salt level. Ultimately, the game allows you to win either way. If the game was entirely skirmish, it wouldn't be much fun. Hell, even CoD/Battlefield is adding objective modes. I guess at least they have buckets for who wants to play what though.

I know, hence I don't get pissed off anymore when I see the usual suspects on my or enemies team that I know will end the drop in 5 minutes, personally I don't get the fun of shooting buildings and find it to be a shallow, skill less victory as you don't have to actually beat your opponents, but I basically treat it the same as a ghost drop. However you should also understand that some people DO show up for a fight, and you have to understand they might be a bit less than happy about you ruining their game in this instance, hence some salt should be expected

[Jman5]

Hazeclaw, on 30 January 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

There's definitely limitations to using damage as a metric, but not many other metrics are available to us

It would be good if there was some sort of a multiplier for using least amount of damage to kill a mech, as in rewarding headshots, IS XL ST kills, or CT kills without dealing damage to other components, over stripping the whole enemy mech with lrms, but there are a lot of other variables that would have to be considered, like mech geometry, etc

I have always been partial to a precision damage metric. You get awarded for all damage done to the component that kills the opponent. With kills that require 2 components to kill like legs or Clan XL side torsos, it counts both components.

Can't be farmed, doesn't favor kill stealing, doesn't favor component destruction stealing, rewards good aim and efficient killing. It would also be a very useful metric for judging weapons.

[Serial Number]

0regon, on 30 January 2018 - 10:55 AM, said:

And I wish there was another way that an average team could go up against an elite team of hand-picked killers and still have a chance of winning. But there isn't.

There is. If you never actually try to fight that "elite team" you'll never get better. Play against better to get better, you know. That's how all those "elite teams" got to level they are on. Not by objective rushing against everyone.
But unless you change your thinking of insta dunking the objectives whenever you see those "elite teams", you'll never stand a chance against them.

[justcallme A S H]

Serial Number, on 30 January 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

There is. If you never actually try to fight that "elite team" you'll never get better. Play against better to get better, you know. That's how all those "elite teams" got to level they are on. Not by objective rushing against everyone.
But unless you change your thinking of insta dunking the objectives whenever you see those "elite teams", you'll never stand a chance against them.

Can't agree more. I started off with a KDR of 0.30 after a few hundred matches... Not even kidding.

I took daily beatdowns from KCom in FP2.0. What did I do? I improved my gameplay and not only started putting up a fight but also winning against such teams.

What i did not do, however, is admit defeat and form a unit of PvE players that refuse to improve and just rush objectives because we can't win a game otherwise. I mean you claim 'KMDD' is bad yet units that gen rush go around touting how many 'planet wins' they have.

I mean which is worse? A player that plays the FPS as a FPS or the units that are worried about some measly MC/leaderboard and use that as their justification for not playing a FPS as a FPS? It's the latter, I assure you. Not just as a good player but also listening to average players - the vast majority of players hate it.


It comes down to a mindset. Think you cannot win, you simply wont, ever.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 January 2018 - 12:51 PM.

[0regon]

Hazeclaw, on 30 January 2018 - 11:12 AM, said:

Why are you so surprised and angry that when you choose to avoid fighting the enemy who came looking for a fight they call you out on it? If you're going to objective rush you should expect some unhappy players to voice their opinion, just like how there's plenty of opinion and hackusations being voiced about scary supervillain premade PAWGs who apparently live off the misery of poor innocent trial stalker baby seals

Ha Ha! I love it. Thanks Hazeclaw, well put

Serial Number, on 30 January 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

There is. If you never actually try to fight that "elite team" you'll never get better. Play against better to get better, you know. That's how all those "elite teams" got to level they are on. Not by objective rushing against everyone.
But unless you change your thinking of insta dunking the objectives whenever you see those "elite teams", you'll never stand a chance against them.

I have to agree with you too, Serial. I appreciate the insight.

[ANOM O MECH]

We have often wondered why you guys play a game involving combat and do your utter best to avoid that combat.

Your motivations and your leader's motivation are an enigma to most of us in the community. That is one of the biggest differences between those of us that want to engage other players in a player vs. player game, our motivation is clear.

Since you are not getting that and instead make absurd assumptions about stat chasing, I will make it crystal clear for you.

WE PLAY THIS GAME TO SHOOT OTHER MECHS, AND BEAT THEM IN COMBAT.

Sure some care about stats more than others do. To say we don't respect your unit (speaking as a member of BCMC) because we are concerned with our stats is not only completely wrong, it's insulting.

No one in my unit or that I know actively playing this mode, wants objectives to be nothing.

What we want is them to be more difficult so units such as yours, don't win games by exploiting how easy it is to shoot stationary targets and win against players you have zero chance of winning against.

What we want is the ability to avoid combat to be removed.

What we want is at the very minimum for the health for the objectives to be increased significantly (on siege and invasion) so that players avoiding playing the combat part of the game are not able to get cheap wins.

You can make up all sort of nonsense in your head about the motivations of others. It probably makes it easier for you to justify in your head why avoiding fighting is ok. That's just me making an assumption of my own though, because really can't figure out why anybody would actively play this game to not shoot other players????

So keep on keeping on. I am almost sure you will disregard what is told you directly and continue using your limited resources to think about the inner workings of others.

You won't see me typing out nonconstructive things in chat or anything, but know that the disdain for how you have chosen to not play the game is there. Your unit and your players, are the only ones in game that are not welcome to come drop with us and not welcome on our TS (not official Hobbles position but the sentiment of the majority of us).

Really hope that PGI, before this game is done, fixes gen rushing for good. Then we won't see you guys and there will be nothing to discuss.

[0regon]

UnKnownPlayer, on 30 January 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

I sit in the middle of this one.

If you get games against people that bring deliberate objective tactics then you can have some really deep gameplay, a lance on the flank trying to draw you away from the base, 2 lances coming in the other side, who do you engage? How do you set yourself up to defend? rolling levels of defence with long range in the rear, fall back positions, counter pushes, focusing specific mech types or players etc.
It provides a much more strategic and enjoyable game if BOTH teams are focused on objectives.

Because most teams are not focused on objectives you end up bringing mechs and tactics to counter what is effectively skirmish, again, and again, and again. It gets boring quickly enough and we end up doing stupid stuff to entertain ourselves like double urby double annihilator, silly token LRM builds, doing Jens Bonde in game theater with ducks and ducklings, SWAT teams and the police.

Normally we will play for kills for the first 2 waves, if stuff goes south we might consider running objectives, as hobbles says but otherwise we tend to play for the kills because of the all whining in game. OF course then people whine wehn we farm drop zones so meh.

I would prefer to have more objective focused games even as defender as it tends to make the games more tense and interesting, but it feels like many teams just don't want to learn something new or they are afraid of losing with a different play style, are afraid to try etc. hence the complaints when you take gens out.

Just my 2 cents.

I think I stand somewhere between what you said here, and with Serial Number, in all honesty. The fact is, PGI created the leaderboard as a ranking system to determine a players skill. So it's natural that players are going to do their best to rank well on the leaderboard. And the fact is, KMDD's are the determining factor. And it's fun to see how many KMDD's you can get in an invasion match. On the other hand, that routine was getting a little stale, and I appreciated Bacon's fresh approach towards leaching out as much value as possible out of the game. It does add an element to the game that goes beyond bashing one another's heads in with the current meta.

Since joining Bacon I've had a lot of fun trying strategies that go beyond the norm, if not just to break the routine and diversify my experiences. And it's really helped me determine the spirit of some of the top units in FW. I've been able to see how these "meta" teams handle a curve ball thrown at them. Some of the units that I had always ranked as the "best" spent more time complaining than adapting, while some showed real competitive spirit, rising to the threat and effectively countering the strategy through excellent teamwork and skill. It's not surprising that they said GG at the end of the match, instead of chastising us. Those units are the true champions, in my book. They have my respect.

Thank you everyone for your contributions to this thread <3

[0regon]

ttk669, I hate to say it, but you are just regurgitating the same thing everyone else said. Except, somehow, you've managed to sound more like a butt hurt little baby than everyone else. How about contributing something that hasn't already been said a dozen different ways by a dozen different people? Much appreciated 07

[ANOM O MECH]

0regon, on 30 January 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

I think base / objective rushing is not nearly as pathetic as the amount of FW players that will ONLY play invasion because they are afraid to lose a spot on the leaderboard, or have their "Games played" stat dilute their "KMDD" stat. THAT is pathetic. And then to cry about it like little spoiled ******* on the battlefield as if somebody slapped a lollipop out of your mouth or something. Do some scouting *******. Life in MWO shouldn't revolve around a leaderboard. All you "elite" players that are so afraid to lose a match you'll only play when there's 10 of you on a team. How pathetic is that? Quit revolving your lives around a ***** leaderboard and play to have fun. Quit hiding behind a stacked team. Grow some balls and do a solo drop once in a while. Then maybe some of the other players will actually take you seriously. You guys talk about objective rushing being dishonorable. I say hiding behind a stacked team of seal clubbers for 3 hours is even worse. How about adding a couple of pugs to your group? Maybe train a few noobs instead of just beating them down and then telling them to git gud. It's no wonder there are so few that even play FW.

Another post where you are using your limited resources to try and determine the thoughts of others.

So look at the stats of BCMC members. Then be honest with yourself about how often you will see them alone pugging CW or with only a couple of others.

Hint: It's a lot.

The irony of you, a player actively avoiding fighting and playing the game, calling out others for not having balls.

Do some scouting? You really want BCMC to scout? You think you'd get away with kiting us with fridges? Again, stop trying to come up with the motivations of others. You are especially bad at it.

So no, those players you can't beat unless you avoid playing them, are not going to go do scouting, because the mode sucks. It's why hardly anyone does it outside of garbage tier units. Four on four medium brawling, is not fun at all. No where else in this game is play so mindless and boring.

Wish your ilk would friend request every player on my unit. Then avoid dropping against us at all since you don't want to actually play us anyway. Your unit is not even worth playing against. There is nothing to be learned, or gained from the experience.

Even that second match last night were we took you apart with zero effort, because it was skirmish and you guys were completely lost in what to do, wasn't worth it or fun. If it was up to me, whenever we came across you in invasion, I would simply go to the middle of the map and let you have it. Why try and play against people who literally don't want to??? That's how much I care about stats, I would gladly take a loss every time I saw you, to avoid being sucked into chasing people trying to not fight around. You guys are not worth the time, or effort.

Oh and super rich you are playing hero to the new players. Been in drops when your leader has told 8 other players that he was doing an objective rush despite if anyone else cared or not. Add to this that your unit objective rushes pugs, who have zero chance to play the game and it is an even funnier point. You're unit terrorizes the new player more than drop zone farming could, because no one gets to actually play when you guys are pulling that crap.

[0regon]

ttk669 you're one of the players that doesn't drop into a FW match unless you're hiding behind a bunch of players that are better than you. That doesn't take nearly as much skill as playing with a group of average players and still managing to play an effective match against seal clubbers. You have a loud bark when you're running with a pack of killers, but that's the onlly time I ever see you around. Again, no offense, but there's not teeth to your bite....sorry

Edited by 0regon, 30 January 2018 - 02:03 PM.

[Johnathan Tanner]

0regon, on 30 January 2018 - 01:59 PM, said:

ttk669 you're one of the players that doesn't drop into a FW match unless you're hiding behind a bunch of players that are better than you. That doesn't take nearly as much skill as playing with a group of average players and still managing to play an effective match against seal clubbers. You have a loud bark when you're running with a pack of killers, but that's the onlly time I ever see you around. Again, no offense, it's not hard to have good stats when the only time you ever do FW is when you're on a stacked team. I'd be embarrassed to even open my mouth.

[Ivor]

Guys, I'm gonna step in here.

Pretty sure the salt is unappreciated. I suggest not using accusatory statements and ad hominum attacks. We're moving away from a good discussion.

[justcallme A S H]

0regon, on 30 January 2018 - 01:59 PM, said:

ttk669 you're one of the players that doesn't drop into a FW match unless you're hiding behind a bunch of players that are better than you. That doesn't take nearly as much skill as playing with a group of average players and still managing to play an effective match against seal clubbers. You have a loud bark when you're running with a pack of killers, but that's the onlly time I ever see you around. Again, no offense, but there's not teeth to your bite....sorry

That statement is a bit rich coming from a team that Gen/Objective rushes against total PUG teams - every, single, time.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 January 2018 - 02:07 PM.

[ANOM O MECH]

0regon, on 30 January 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

ttk669, I hate to say it, but you are just regurgitating the same thing everyone else said. Except, somehow, you've managed to sound more like a butt hurt little baby than everyone else. How about contributing something that hasn't already been said a dozen different ways by a dozen different people? Much appreciated 07

Grow up.

I am not butt hurt, which while a common term is not generally brought up in a serious discussion. Not by adults anyway. I genuinely dislike how easy it is to objective rush, and I genuinely find playing against you guys to be a waste of time and not fun.

I also have not heard others discuss the exact level of disdain and complete and utter lack of respect the majority of the community has for you and your tactics.

Other units have received as much hate as you guys, but they were also respected. You guys are not. At all. Want it to be very clear for you and why.

So please call me a baby while saying you have no chance. Use juvenile terms to describe my expressing and calmly explaining how a lot of us feel.

[McGoat]

[Johnathan Tanner]

[Ivor]

Also, in response to some things that have been said, I'm not a great pilot. I'm somewhere between mediocre and ok. To be honest, if the only option I had was to get smacked in the face every time with no hope of winning for a year and a half while I git gud, I'm not going to play. That's not how it works. For some people, maybe. But then the pool of people playing would be real small and 1. no game for you because PGI is now broke, and 2. if the servers are still up, 1-2 hour wait times would suck because no one is playing (or you'll just play the same 1 team over and over.

What attracts me to this game and CW/FP in general is the ability to work through tactics and to learn. It can't be boiled down to "I want to smash mechs." I mean, of COURSE I want to smash mechs, but I don't ONLY want to smash mechs. I want to learn, I want to get better at smashing mechs, but I also want to outsmart and be outsmarted. I want to run into MS and EVIL and BCMC and a host of other units and say "well crap... this is gonna be a loss, but maybe not." To lose a match and say, "Well that didn't work, how can I improve that maneuvre?" I want to lose and say, "well damn, I didn't see that coming." It's not that I don't want to play. I just want to play MORE and differently.

I will agree, though that incursion targets are a bit soft. Though I think siege gens are plenty tough due to the positioning and shielding. If you lose all the gens in the first wave, you've most likely been stomped in the fight anyway.

Edited by Ivor, 30 January 2018 - 02:26 PM.

[McGoat]

Johnathan Tanner, on 30 January 2018 - 02:22 PM, said: