33 replies to this topic

[Jiang Wei]

Should MW5 have reactor explosions like previous single MW games? Myself I think self destruct is a tactical manuever. I mean there is an argument to be made for it. What does a mech do if it has lost its arms and doesnt have weapons anywhere else? Or its out of ammo and you are still in the heat of battle? in MWO we have ammo explosions but it only destroys your own mech, it doesnt affect nearby mechs.

I know people would argue that the reactors cant explode because... real world science. But I dont recall anyone ever complaining about it in past titles. I see it as a marker for piloting skill also. Are you a mouth breather who winds up face mashing in every brawl? In MW4 this was considered poor piloting, because if you got too close to your enemy when destroying him, you would get his with splash damage and extreme heat that usually caused your mech to shut down. if you were caught in such explosions frequently then you were a bad pilot. Mech explosions were argued for in MWo way back in closed beta, but it was decided that it might push casual players away if they had to worry about that, even though that was never an issue before in previous MW titles.

It may already be too late to argue for it in MW5. But its not going to be an online game like MWO, so worrying about casual players hurt feelings is irrelevant since you can play a single player game at your leisure entirely.

Perhaps they could make it an option in the game settings? Allow people with dedicated servers to switch it on extra fun. or if you want that added challenge in your single player campaign. I know I would, and I would love to have it as a feature choice in dedicated servers.

But more than that, also for competitive play. Avoiding explosions should be a benchmark for competive play like it used to be. I mean a lack of such things is what turned myself and many others off to competitive play in MWO. MWO is a low skill cap game, and thus its not as enticing to high skill cap players in regards to competitive play.

I also truly hope that MW5 doesnt also use a form of HSR for its multiplayer. in MWO HSR took away nearly any skill cap the game had. If HSR does exist in MW5, that will be a big downer for me and I might not even buy it because of that...

But then again, maybe that could also be a option instead of a core feature.

Edited by Jiang Wei, 31 January 2018 - 08:51 AM.

[Bombast]

I could go with or without Stackpoling visually. No to intentional suicide explosions though, and no to it actually being a gameplay mechanic.

[Nik Reaper]

Honestly I would love to see reactor damage kills as a stream ( flamer like ) bursting from the mechs interior as it falls down, kinda like a kill bill blood fountain , as that's what most CT kills in BT would look like, only rare occasions of a pressure explosion and intentional bobby trap bombs ( has weight equipment not sure about crits ) explosions result in a stackpole.

[Spheroid]

@Jiang Wei: Sorry you lost me when you said you were pro lag. No modern games consider lag a virtue. That is why all forums and videos regarding multiplier games have healthy opinions on how good or bad said netcode is.

BF4 originally had garbage netcode that resulted in rubber banding and kill trading.

If shots cannot be reliable be made you may inadvertently end up devaluing entire classes of weapons. If sniping can't be done then it just devolves into close range twitch or nade spam, how is that pro-skill?

Pre-HSR MWO was a mess. Immortal Ravens and Commandos bringing down all weight classes with CT seeking streaks was in no way skillfull. Your join date says 2013. That being the case you should recall that pre-HSR was not a golden time at all.

Edited by Spheroid, 31 January 2018 - 08:51 PM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Stackpoling (explosions depicted in some novels) isn't really a thing in BattleTech...well not lore at least.

When an engine is damaged beyond function, it just ceases to work, there isn't some large nuclear explosion. Stackpoling was most likely added for dramatic effect to tell a story in the novels.

So, some games had included it (probably inspired by those very novels) regardless of it not being real legit.

For me, I'd rather not have Stackpoling in MW5:Mercs because it isn't really part of the lore. If it is added for dramatic flare, I wouldn't be terribly upset, but I definitely wouldn't like it's inclusion.

Here is how Sarna.net explains it...

"Fusion engines usually will only shut down if damaged or if heat is uncontrolled. Unlike popular belief, there is absolutely no risk of a fusion engine accidentally becoming a nuclear weapon. There have been a number of cases of fusion engines being "over revved" and exploding with devastating force, but this is more akin to a boiler explosion than a true nuclear explosion. More often a destroyed engine will be punctured by weapons fire. Because the plasma is held in a vacuum chamber (to isolate the superheated plasma from the cold walls of the reactor; contact with the walls would super-chill the plasma below fusion temperatures), a punctured reactor can suck in air where the air is superheated. Normal thermal expansion of the air causes the air to burst out in a brilliant lightshow often mistaken for a "nuclear explosion". This thermal expansion damages anything within 90 meters of the destroyed 'Mech.

Such dramatic failures are rare, though. It is difficult to sustain the fusion reaction and very easy to shut down. Safety systems or damage to containment coils will almost always shut down the engine before such an explosion occurs. The massive shielding of the engine (in the case of standard fusion engines, this is a tungsten carbide shell that accounts for over 2/3 of the weight of the engine) usually buys the safety systems the milliseconds needed to shutdown the engine when severe damage is inflicted." - Sarna

There is a rare occurrence when a "Thermal Expansion" can occur and pose a slight damage risk, but again, it is a VERY rare occurrence so it wouldn't really justify a mechanic in the game.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 31 January 2018 - 10:34 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

I'm ok if it's just an eye candy (no damage done) to make the gameplay feel more dramatic.

[Metus regem]

MeiSooHaityu, on 31 January 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

Stackpoling (explosions depicted in some novels) isn't really a thing in BattleTech...well not lore at least.

When an engine is damaged beyond function, it just ceases to work, there isn't some large nuclear explosion. Stackpoling was most likely added for dramatic effect to tell a story in the novels.

So, some games had included it (probably inspired by those very novels) regardless of it not being real legit.

For me, I'd rather not have Stackpoling in MW5:Mercs because it isn't really part of the lore. If it is added for dramatic flare, I wouldn't be terribly upset, but I definitely wouldn't like it's inclusion.

Here is how Sarna.net explains it...

"Fusion engines usually will only shut down if damaged or if heat is uncontrolled. Unlike popular belief, there is absolutely no risk of a fusion engine accidentally becoming a nuclear weapon. There have been a number of cases of fusion engines being "over revved" and exploding with devastating force, but this is more akin to a boiler explosion than a true nuclear explosion. More often a destroyed engine will be punctured by weapons fire. Because the plasma is held in a vacuum chamber (to isolate the superheated plasma from the cold walls of the reactor; contact with the walls would super-chill the plasma below fusion temperatures), a punctured reactor can suck in air where the air is superheated. Normal thermal expansion of the air causes the air to burst out in a brilliant lightshow often mistaken for a "nuclear explosion". This thermal expansion damages anything within 90 meters of the destroyed 'Mech.

Such dramatic failures are rare, though. It is difficult to sustain the fusion reaction and very easy to shut down. Safety systems or damage to containment coils will almost always shut down the engine before such an explosion occurs. The massive shielding of the engine (in the case of standard fusion engines, this is a tungsten carbide shell that accounts for over 2/3 of the weight of the engine) usually buys the safety systems the milliseconds needed to shutdown the engine when severe damage is inflicted." - Sarna

There is a rare occurrence when a "Thermal Expansion" can occur and pose a slight damage risk, but again, it is a VERY rare occurrence so it wouldn't really justify a mechanic in the game.

In TT, there is an optional rule for cascading engine failures... it needs the engine to take 4 crits in one turn I think, they do damage based on rating at different damage rings, 1 hex is engine rating/10, 2 hex is engine rating/20, 3 hex is engine rating/40, dealt in 5 point clusters...

Trust me, it creates some interesting moments, when you get a chain reaction going that starts with 1t of MG ammo going off that leads to the death of 6 mechs through large explosions and cascading engine failures....

[MeiSooHaityu]

Metus regem, on 31 January 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

In TT, there is an optional rule for cascading engine failures... it needs the engine to take 4 crits in one turn I think, they do damage based on rating at different damage rings, 1 hex is engine rating/10, 2 hex is engine rating/20, 3 hex is engine rating/40, dealt in 5 point clusters...

Trust me, it creates some interesting moments, when you get a chain reaction going that starts with 1t of MG ammo going off that leads to the death of 6 mechs through large explosions and cascading engine failures....

Well yes, that does sound interesting (and scary too, if also a bit cheap) lol.

I just don't think that optional house rules or ultra rare occurrences really justify it being in MW5. I suppose that, if there was a representation of Stackpoling in some sort of worse case scenario way, that would it would be purely cosmetic.

[El Bandito]

Dead mechs exploding all the time was pretty damn annoying in MW2.

[Metus regem]

MeiSooHaityu, on 31 January 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Well yes, that does sound interesting (and scary too, if also a bit cheap) lol.

I just don't think that optional house rules or ultra rare occurrences really justify it being in MW5. I suppose that, if there was a representation of Stackpoling in some sort of worse case scenario way, that would it would be purely cosmetic.

Well that event I'm talking about, I've only seen it happen once in some 20 years of playing TT, but it all started when my WHM-6R too a TAC to the MG ammo bin, that dealt me 4 crits to the engine, as well as damaged the mech that set it off, leading to their CT being open, my cascading engine failure caused 4 crits on their engine and so on down the line... it was super rare and super funny.

That being said, I think "Stackpoling" should be left for a movie or scripted event, rather than normal game play.

[MechaBattler]

In a world with perfect lag free internet you could have HSR free online play.

Also calling brawlers mouth breathers, word?

They're going to have mod support. So if reactor explosions are not in. Someone could just mod it in. Player's choice at that point. Personally it was a stupid plot device. But I'm not against it as a game mechanic. So long as it isn't wiping out whole mechs.

[Jiang Wei]

Bombast, on 31 January 2018 - 09:07 AM, said:

I could go with or without Stackpoling visually. No to intentional suicide explosions though, and no to it actually being a gameplay mechanic.

If you are going express your opinion on the topic, you should make an argument for it at least.

Spheroid, on 31 January 2018 - 09:59 AM, said:

@Jiang Wei: Sorry you lost me when you said you were pro lag. No modern games consider lag a virtue. That is why all forums and videos regarding multiplier games have healthy opinions on how good or bad said netcode is.

BF4 originally had garbage netcode that resulted in rubber banding and kill trading.

If shots cannot be reliable be made you may inadvertently end up devaluing entire classes of weapons. If sniping can't be done then it just devolves into close range twitch or nade spam, how is that pro-skill?

Pre-HSR MWO was a mess. Immortal Ravens and Commandos brining down all weight classes with CT seeking streaks was in no way skillfull. Your join date says 2013. That being the case you should recall that pre-HSR was not a golden time at all.

I wasnt referring to lag. Im talking about target leading. HSR takes away that skill. We have yet to see how the game is in multiplayer to decide if HSR is necessary. It wasnt necessary in previous MW titles. And it certainly wont be necessary in single player.

I personally did not have a problem shooting high speed light mechs. Nor did many other skilled players. HSR was implemented for casual players. Pre HSR was a great time for skilled pilots, because they easily stood out amongst the potatoes. Before HSR I enjoyed a 10+ kda. If I could do it, why couldnt others? Was I the only one who didnt lag? HSR removed the need for leading a target, a dream come true for casuals.

Edited by Jiang Wei, 31 January 2018 - 05:19 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Jiang Wei, on 31 January 2018 - 05:09 PM, said:

I wasnt referring to lag. Im talking about target leading. HSR takes away that skill.

Target leading...because of lag.

Lasers shouldn't require deflection and projectiles still require deflection.

[Bombast]

Jiang Wei, on 31 January 2018 - 05:09 PM, said:

If you are going express your opinion on the topic, you should make an argument for it at least

I'm sorry I can't summon the energy to call people mouth breathers in defense of my opinion.

But sure, ok. Explosion damage does nothing but provide further incentives to play the legging game, a endemic problem with most of the Mechwarrior games already. It gives another benefit to sniping that's not necessary. And suiciding bombing is a lame thing to allow.

[Jiang Wei]

Hit the Deck, on 31 January 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

I'm ok if it's just an eye candy (no damage done) to make the gameplay feel more dramatic.

There would be no point to that.

Bombast, on 31 January 2018 - 05:16 PM, said:

I'm sorry I can't summon the energy to call people mouth breathers in defense of my opinion.

But sure, ok. Explosion damage does nothing but provide further incentives to play the legging game, a endemic problem with most of the Mechwarrior games already. It gives another benefit to sniping that's not necessary. And suiciding bombing is a lame thing to allow.

LOL, so are you saying that shooting a mechs leg is not legit or something? Who thinks like that. You didnt read the whole OP did you. You should just delete your posts because they add nothing.

Edited by Jiang Wei, 31 January 2018 - 05:24 PM.

[Bombast]

Jiang Wei, on 31 January 2018 - 05:22 PM, said:

LOL, so are you saying that shooting a mechs leg is not legit or something? Who thinks like that. You didnt read the whole OP did you. You should just delete your posts because they add nothing.

I read it. I responded to it in the manner I so preferred.

I can't say I can summon the energy to apologize that you don't like my answers. Good luck garnering support with this attitude, and the lack of fundimental understanding you've displayed in your responses to other.

[Kaeb Odellas]

What would stackpoling add to the game besides another source of frustrating RNG mechanics?

[Andi Nagasia]

Jiang Wei, on 31 January 2018 - 08:38 AM, said:

Should MW5 have reactor explosions like previous single MW games? Myself I think self destruct is a tactical manuever. I mean there is an argument to be made for it. What does a mech do if it has lost its arms and doesnt have weapons anywhere else? Or its out of ammo and you are still in the heat of battle? in MWO we have ammo explosions but it only destroys your own mech, it doesnt affect nearby mechs.

self destruct would never be a tactical maneuver,
if your a mech warrior your piloting something thats nearly 300-600 years old if not older,
tactically self destructing would be like tactically setting your house on fire, good for movies not for RL or Lore,
their is no instance where it would benefit your team as the damage it would do is negligible,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 31 January 2018 - 06:15 PM.

[Jiang Wei]

Bombast, on 31 January 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

I read it. I responded to it in the manner I so preferred.

I can't say I can summon the energy to apologize that you don't like my answers. Good luck garnering support with this attitude, and the lack of fundimental understanding you've displayed in your responses to other.

I just get annoyed when people respond with ignorance.

Kaeb Odellas, on 31 January 2018 - 06:03 PM, said:

What would stackpoling add to the game besides another source of frustrating RNG mechanics?

RNG? No a mech would always explode upon death. Plus I explained what it would mean in the original post. Perhaps I have overestimated the level of understanding people have for such things, or I didnt explain it well enough? Is the post too long for people to read throroughly?

Andi Nagasia, on 31 January 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

self destruct would never be a tactical maneuver,
if your a mech warrior your piloting something thats nearly 300-600 years old if not older,
tactically self destructing would be like tactically setting your house on fire, good for movies not for RL or Lore,
their is no instance where it would benefit your team as the damage it would do is negligible,

Thats is false, From my own experience I have myself used self destruct as a tactical manuever in dire situations and so has many people who played MW4. I mean your example couldnt be more of a false equivelency. No one uses a house as a war machine. Actually I am wrong, a house has been used in tactical destruction. Have you ever seen a movie where the bad guys are in your house and you leave the gas on while placing a paint can in a microwave then the house exploded killing the bad guys?(or a number of other ways..) Or maybe that scene in aliens 2 where the lt and the girl marine get trapped in duct between 2 groups of aliens and what do they do? They use a grenade to blow themselves and several aliens up. Doesnt matter if you saw it in a movie, its still a valid tactic. Your going down and you wanna take out as many enemies as possible with you. Its not a hard concept to understand, or so I thought.

In MW4 a mech explosion did serious damage and caused enough heat to shut down another mech if it was too close. Not sure which topic post you read but I explained that in the original post. It is so frustrating when people dont actually read your post and then respond in ignorance.

Edited by Jiang Wei, 31 January 2018 - 07:21 PM.

[PocketYoda]

I wish this game had reactor explosions..